Qualification System for 2014 SOCHI Olympics Figure Skating, including Team Event

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Well, some standards should be in place to prevent this level of skating from going to Worlds or the Olympics. It is possible to send skaters that are bad enough to be a safety danger to other teams on their warm-up. That said, current standard is skewed the other way, and most likely prevents decent skaters from gaining valuable experience. Hopefully, next ISU congress will vote on bringing back qualifying rounds.
     
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Although the Pairs field is weak, I don't think it's so weak that the truly scary teams would qualify at Worlds or Nebelhorn.

    Euros: 15 Pairs
    • 14 of 15 re-made the Euros/4C's TES SP Minimum (20)
    • 13 of 15 re-made the Euros/4C's TES FS Minimum (36)
    • 7 of 15 teams re-made the original Worlds TES SP Minimum (28)
    • 10 of 15 teams re-made the new Worlds TES SP Minimum (24)
    • 9 of 15 teams re-made the original Worlds TES FS Minimum (45)
    • 11 of 15 teams re-made the new Worlds TES FS Minimum (41)

    Of these teams, GER and FRA had one more Pair each than they'll have in London, but GER has a very good chance of getting back three, like they had at Euros, and James/Cipres have a good shot at making Top 10 to earn two for France. RUS should easily retain three, and ITA should easily retain two. I think the numbers will be stable going into Sochi.

    4C's: 7 Pairs (+ 1 WD and only two from CHN)
    • All re-made the Euros/4C's TES Minimums for SP (20) and FS (36)
    • 6 of 7 teams re-made the original Worlds TES SP Minimum (28)
    • All re-made the new Worlds TES SP Minimum (24)
    • All re-made the original and new Worlds TES FS Minimums (45/41)


    Two of those teams are from countries (CAN, CHN) that would have to earn three in London, with Canada having a much better shot than USA. CHN will have to re-earn three, which is going to be tough with an ailing Pang/Tong. The 4C's field might be two down there, plus one from Japan, if they can make whatever minimums are set, if they apply to appointed skaters.
     
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Re-posting from the 2013 Worlds forum:
    "Twenty-four (24) qualification places for men and ladies each... nineteen (19) qualification places in Ice Dance will be determined after the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2013" [5 countries will vie for the remaining dance spots at Nebelhorn].

    Note: The judges by country draw for the Olympics will take place during Nebelhorn Trophy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  4. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    It may be necessary to eliminate multiple entries from a country that has only one successful skater.

    For instance, Kazakhstan has earned two spots thanks to Denis Ten's performance. So without the mininum score, their second skater, who finished 28th in the SP, would qualify for the Olympics, whereas 5 national champions who beat him at the Worlds would not qualify. He may still qualify instead of them, but at least he has to satisfy some minimal criteria.

    It could have been worse, actually. If Kazakhstan had not sent a second skater to the Worlds, they would have qualified three skaters for the Olympics. So there should be some way of eliminating such anomalies.

    I think that's a good idea. :)
     
  5. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    This is what I never understand. Why draw the judges five months in advance and give them the whole season to put their politics in place and hand out presents to each other's skaters at the various events? :confused:
     
  6. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    The mere fact that Rakimgaliev (2nd KAZ guy) was actually at Worlds means he already has the TES min scores, so unless ISU decides to raise the numbers again (doubt it), he will be at Sochi (he was at Vancouver too).
     
  7. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    I think you just answered yourself ;):scream::p
     
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    From this new article titled "ISU's Dore talks Olympic team figure skating event": http://www.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130316&content_id=42839970&vkey=ice_news
     
  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link. I can't say that the following surprises me, but it's still disappointing that this is the reason for the unfortunate scheduling of the team event:

    :wall:
     
  10. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    "Other sports" have qualifying heats. In swimming and athletics/track & field, every country that doesn't have anyone who meets any of the qualifying standards is allowed to enter 1 man and 1 woman. (Usually, they end up in the shortest events - in fact, the men's 100m at London started with a few heats consisting entirely of these runners, with something like two from each race advancing to the "real" competition - but every now and then, some joker country puts somebody in the men's marathon.) If they could have a second ice surface available (or if they didn't have the team competition), ISU could do something along the lines of the old "qualifying round", except that it would be limited to countries that did not otherwise qualify for the event; the top 4 or so would advance to the short program. (Refresh my memory: did worlds ever have a qualifying round after the new scoring system came into place?)

    As for why the minimum qualifying score is necessary for the Olympics, I agree with the "it's to prevent someone who has little business being there riding the coattails of someone who got that country a second/third entry" people. (I also noticed that, if a country does not fill all of its spots, the vacant ones are filled based on Nebelhorn results.)
     
  11. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    Maybe in his example you are right, but if Kazakhstan had only one skater at the Worlds this year, they would have qualified three skaters for the Olympics and the minimum score would be needed to make it fair for the other countries.
     
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Re-posting from the 2013 Worlds forum:
     
  13. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    How did they come up with 2 for Kazakhstan? I have Tan in second, and Rakimgaliev in 28th, which is 30 places, and the maximum for 2 qualifiers is 28.

    Did I miss a rule somewhere saying that everybody who doesn't make it to the free skate is placed 24th for qualifying purposes?
     
  14. GREGORY

    GREGORY Active Member

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    You did.18 points are given for a skater who doesn't qualify for the free program. 16 points are given for skater qualify for the free program but placed 16th to 24 th in final.
     
  15. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    I see that in the ISU rules, but it says "2012/13 season only" and mentions a preliminary round that they didn't have this year, so it wasn't clear if that applied to 2013 events counting toward 2014 qualifying or 2012 events counting toward 2013 qualifying (or both).

    Speaking of qualifying, if I read the scoring system correctly, here's what I have for the team competition for Sochi so far:
    [table="width: 600"]
    [tr][td][/td][td]Men[/td][td]Ladies[/td][td]Pairs[/td][td]Dance[/td][td]Total "A"[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Canada[/td][td]1200[/td][td]574[/td][td]972[/td][td]1080[/td][td]3826[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]USA[/td][td]638[/td][td]787[/td][td]517[/td][td]1200[/td][td]3142[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Russia[/td][td]222[/td][td]517[/td][td]1200[/td][td]972[/td][td]2911[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Italy[/td][td]74[/td][td]1080[/td][td]465[/td][td]875[/td][td]2494[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]France[/td][td]517[/td][td]418[/td][td]574[/td][td]709[/td][td]2218[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Germany[/td][td]418[/td][td]180[/td][td]1080[/td][td]465[/td][td]2143[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]China[/td][td]275[/td][td]638[/td][td]787[/td][td]362[/td][td]2062[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Japan[/td][td]875[/td][td]972[/td][td]0[/td][td]162[/td][td]2009[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]South Korea[/td][td]156[/td][td]1200[/td][td]0[/td][td]68[/td][td]1424[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Spain[/td][td]972[/td][td]131[/td][td]0[/td][td]180[/td][td]1283[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Kazakhstan[/td][td]1080[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]1080[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Ukraine[/td][td]118[/td][td]275[/td][td]293[/td][td]305[/td][td]991[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Great Britain[/td][td]0[/td][td]162[/td][td]275[/td][td]339[/td][td]776[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Estonia[/td][td]131[/td][td]247[/td][td]0[/td][td]293[/td][td]671[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Australia[/td][td]102[/td][td]146[/td][td]0[/td][td]402[/td][td]650[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Czech Rep[/td][td]465[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]146[/td][td]611[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Austria[/td][td]162[/td][td]106[/td][td]237[/td][td]83[/td][td]588[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Uzbekistan[/td][td]247[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]325[/td][td]572[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Belarus[/td][td]237[/td][td]0[/td][td]214[/td][td]74[/td][td]525[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Sweden[/td][td]200[/td][td]305[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]505[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Mexico[/td][td]0[/td][td]237[/td][td]0[/td][td]237[/td][td]474[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Poland[/td][td]126[/td][td]0[/td][td]200[/td][td]102[/td][td]428[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Slovakia[/td][td]0[/td][td]222[/td][td]0[/td][td]156[/td][td]378[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Philippines[/td][td]214[/td][td]156[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]370[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Switzerland[/td][td]113[/td][td]113[/td][td]0[/td][td]140[/td][td]366[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Finland[/td][td]75[/td][td]156[/td][td]0[/td][td]131[/td][td]362[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Israel[/td][td]214[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]118[/td][td]332[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Georgia[/td][td]0[/td][td]214[/td][td]0[/td][td]113[/td][td]327[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Belgium[/td][td]180[/td][td]140[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]320[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Turkey[/td][td]0[/td][td]83[/td][td]0[/td][td]237[/td][td]320[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Bulgaria[/td][td]92[/td][td]0[/td][td]222[/td][td]0[/td][td]314[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Chinese Taipei[/td][td]92[/td][td]192[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]284[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Denmark[/td][td]106[/td][td]173[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]279[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Lithuania[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]275[/td][td]275[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Mongolia[/td][td]264[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]264[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Azerbaijan[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]247[/td][td]247[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Hungary[/td][td]0[/td][td]61[/td][td]0[/td][td]106[/td][td]167[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Rumania[/td][td]140[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]140[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]South Africa[/td][td]0[/td][td]140[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]140[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Brazil[/td][td]114[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]114[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]India[/td][td]0[/td][td]113[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]113[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Netherlands[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]103[/td][td]0[/td][td]103[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Norway[/td][td]0[/td][td]92[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]92[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Luxembourg[/td][td]0[/td][td]74[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]74[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Latvia[/td][td]0[/td][td]68[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]68[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]Armenia[/td][td]61[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td]61[/td][/tr]
    [/table]
     
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  16. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Does the male South Korean ice dancer have citizenship yet?

    ETA: Do points count if they are earned by non-citizens? Lithuania's female ice dancer is not a citizen either, nor, as far as I know, is Israel's female ice dancer.

    The National Skating Federation of Kazakhstan is about to get a deluge of inquiries from ladies, pairs, and ice dance couples from around the world.
    :watch:

    Monaco, no? Kim Lucine skates for Monaco.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    There's nothing in the communication about the Sochi team event that suggests otherwise. There's no requirement that any skater or team whose points are used to qualify a nation must compete at Sochi, unlike WTT, where competitors must be selected from the two highest skaters from that nation who also place top 10 at WC, at least in theory (ie they aren't injured). The skaters might not have citizenship, might not have the minimum score, or might not make the team.
     
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    From the document linked in post #1:
    b) Ten (10) NOCs/ISU Members will qualify to enter their Teams based on the qualifying points scoring scale as outlined in sub-paragraph e) below) scored by its best one (1) Lady Single Skater, best one (1) Man Single Skater, best Pair Skating couple and best Ice Dance couple primarily at ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2013 (season 2012/13) and the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events and Final season 2013/14, plus if necessary the ISU European Figure Skating Championships/ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships 2013 (season 2012/13), the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships 2013 (season 2012/13) and ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating season 2013/14 (only in individual events but not the Final).

    Thanks for doing the initial calculation from the 2013 Worlds results, That Don Guy!

    ETA: I meant to say 2013 ISU Championship results and have gone back and bolded those events above..
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  19. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Should be an interesting 2013 Nebelhorn. For example, going by current ISU standings, the top 6 ladies from non-qualifying countries would be

    Korpi - FIN
    Gedevanishvili - GEO
    Lafuente - ESP
    Frank - AUT
    Glescic - SLO
    Han - AUS

    For the men,

    Martinez - PHI
    Lucine - MON
    Bacchini - ITA
    Kelemen - ROU
    Strid - DEN
    Lee - KOR
     
  20. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    If they skate half decently I think Korpi, Lafuente and Gedevanishvili are locks. Glescic may be high on the rankings right now but her skating has deteriorated a lot. Im crossing fingers for Brooklee Han, she was great at Worlds and just missed it by one spot.

    As for Men.. I soo want one of the Philipino and Korean guys to make it. And then I would root for Cieplucha (POL), he's been missing qualifications by 1 spots too many times.
     
  21. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    My bad - I saw "MON" and couldn't figure out what country it stood for.

    They're not just from Worlds - when a country didn't place anybody in a particular discipline in the top 24 in Worlds, I took that country's best placing (with the reduced points, of course) from Europeans or Four Continents, and if they didn't place in the top 24 there either, from World Juniors (or is it Junior Worlds?).
     
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Yes, thanks for clarifying - I've gone back and bolded those events in my earlier post.

    ETA: Which ITA man got the 74 points? Antonio PANFILI is the only one with ISU Championship points this season (55 at 2013 Junior Worlds).
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  23. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    The ISU results page has Paolo Bacchini finishing 24th overall at Europeans, even though he finished 25th in the short - for some reason, they don't place Plushenko in the final standings, even though he finished sixth in the short program.
     
  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Bacchini is not credited with any ISU Championship points this season on the ISU site (refer to the current World Standings/Season's Rankings lists), so Panfili's points should be swapped into your calculations.
     
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    In order to earn WS points, the skater/team to finish all phases of the competition, and Bacchini never skated the FS. That's why Panfili with 55 from 22nd at JWC is the only Italian Man with any kind of championship points from this season.

    The total for Italy is 2475.

    ETA: There are a few others where teams didn't skate the FS/FD and earned no ranking points:

    Austria in Ice Dance: No points. (No entry at WC, G/E were 23rd at EU, but only Top 20 made it to the FD, and at JWC, K/B were 32nd and FNR). Total "A" score is 505 (162 106 237 0)

    Poland in Pairs: 192. (K/C were FNR at WC, but were 15th at EC). Poland in Ice Dance: No points. (P/G were FNR at WC, Z/B were FNR at EC, and Z/Z were FNR at JWC.) Total "A" score is 318 (126 0 192 0).

    Belarus in Ice Dance: No points. (K/V were FNR at JWC and WC, V/V were FNR at EC.) Total "A" score is 451 (237 0 214 0).

    Finland in Ice Dance: 126 points. (K/L were FNR at WC, but 19th at EC.) Total "A" score is 357 (75 156 0 126).

    Israel in Ice Dance: No points. (R/R were FNR at WC and WD from EC.) Total "A" score is 214 (214 0 0 0).

    Thank you so much for doing these scores That Don Guy! I missed two countries and had some botched totals for taking Euros instead of WC scores or grabbing the EC points instead of JWC points.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  26. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    It's outrageous that McCorkell beat Han at Worlds. And it cost Australia a direct spot for Sochi!
     
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    From the document linked from post #1:
     
  28. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Swap Glescic for Madsen and it sounds about right.

    Bacchini is very inconsistent. He might easily make it, he might totally bomb. Kelemen will qualify if clean but a clean Cieplucha could beat him. It will be an exciting event, for sure. :)
     
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Which countries' NOC's have standards that would keep skaters from competing, even if they qualify? Israel and Germany have recntly, and Denmark famously did in the past.

    A healthy Korpi could meet any Finnish OC standards, and there haven't been issues with KOR or GEO in the past, and it's hard to imagine that PHI would have an issue.

    Are there any skaters from PRK who will make their every-four-year-attempt to qualify? As an unranked skater, the guy from PRK opened the Men's SP in Vancouver with a fantastic 3A.
     
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Scroll down: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130322&content_id=43120910&vkey=ice_news
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013