Qualification System for 2014 SOCHI Olympics Figure Skating, including Team Event

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    2014 Olympic Winter Games (OWG) - Sochi - Qualification Systems & Rules for the Figure Skating Team Event
    18 February 2013

    The basic Qualification Systems for the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games had been posted on the ISU website early 2012. At the same time, the IOC had informed the NOCs accordingly.

    In the meantime, the Qualification System for Figure Skating and the Rules for the Figure Skating Team Event have been reviewed and updated by the ISU Council in consultation with the IOC (Rule 400, paragraph C) also taking into account the latest Rule changes adopted during the 2012 ISU Congress.


    Qualification Systems Figure Skating document (12 pages): http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=4263
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  2. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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    The Olympic field is already limited due to maximum entries. I really don't see why the minimum score is necessary.

    Imagine you could finish high enough at Nebelhorn to qualify, but not have the minimum score and someone who finishes below you who happened to have made the minimum score previously would get to go instead.

    Or the ISU could just take the final qualifiers' scores in each discipline from Nebelhorn and make that the minimum tech score.

    Of course they would never do that.
  3. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    So the ISU are going to arbitrarily decide a minimum TES score for the Olympics before the final Olympic qualifying competition? :huh:
  4. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Ummm...isn't that better than holding a qualifying competition where nobody knows what score is needed to meet qualification? Most sports with qualifying times or points (swimming, track & field,...) publish them ahead of time, often as "A" and "B" times.
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Since they already have a way to limit the field size, they can go with a lower set of scores, like the Euros/4C's score. If they go with a Worlds-like set of scores, they might not be able to fill their fields, since the national NOC requirements can exceed ISU qualifying requirements.

    I'm guessing they'll do the latter, anyway, since they always reserve the right to change the scores.
  6. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I don't blame them as the min score would prevent a bunch of third-tier Americans competing for Azerbaijan or Chinese Taipei just to say they are Olympians.
  7. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    No, it's not. What happens if they set the score too high and a skater/country earns a place at Nebelhorn, but can't use the place they earned because they don't have whatever TES score the ISU designates?

    Unlike the scores for ISU championships, I don't believe the qualifying scores for Olympics can be adjusted mid-season either. That's certainly the case for athletics and swimming at the Summer Olympics. The A and B standards never change.
  8. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't a lot of the country hoppers make the minimum scores for World's anyway though? So one would presume they'd be able to make them for the Olympics too. If anything, it will mean that if these countries want representation, they CAN'T use their 'real' citizens.
  9. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Good point as it would prevent a smaller country from ever competing a team. However, I brought up in another Sochi thread that perhaps skaters from different disciplines could be put into a Unified Team of various nationalities. I'm more interested in discouraging country-hopping than discouraging smaller countries.
  10. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Which third tier Americans representing Azerbaijan or Chinese Taipei have qualified for the Olympics in the first place?

    If they did, either at Worlds or the qualifier, they are hardly third tier.

    It would be easier for the ISU to adjust the scores for the Olympics mid-season: they already will have a hierarchical list of qualifiers by the end of September, and they can lower the minimum to ensure they have a full field, because no matter how many skaters qualify after they're raised, it just a increases the wait list, not the field size, like at Euros or Worlds.

    That's why minimums for Olympics are redundant.
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    The only scenario I see where it could be necessary would be in a case where Denis Ten or Elene Gedevanishvili place in the top 10 and qualify a second spot. The minimum score would be necessary to ensure that the federations don't send a really poor quality skater as their #2.

    It doesn't seem worth it to me, though, because this has actually happened in the past and their federations elected not to use their second spots, nor did Bulgaria use its second ice dance spot in 2006, and I'm sure there are other examples. I don't think most federations actually want to send an embarrassingly bad skater to the Olympics, even if they had the opportunity (which is very rare).

    What's going to happen is the minimum score is going to cause headaches when someone without it skates a blinder at Russian, US, or Canadian nationals.
  12. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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    Kazakhstan actually has a very good number two guy, Abzal Rakimgaliev, who competed in Vancouver Olympics with Denis Ten. He didn't qualify for the free, but he did at worlds two years prior.
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  13. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    I could understand a minimum standard - every sport has that plus don't they always say that each comp is different so couldn't really just use one competition? What I would like to see is a very basic minimum international olympic standard - (dble axel/one triple in TES marks).. and then if they have more than required.. then YAY and have a qualifying competition at the event - that way those one skater countries who have worked really hard to get there will at least get to be a part of the olympics.. because isn't that what the event is also about - bringing together skaters from all over the world - not just the key countries?? Also I think they should be able to have till a month of so before the Olympics to reach that minimum.. start of the season I don't agree with..
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Georgia gave back a second spot that Gedevanishvili earned in LA for Vancouver.

    If someone skates a blind at Nationals, and it's too late to register for an international before the Olympics, then there will be more criticism that the Feds don't identify their talent and keep them home instead of giving them an opportunity to make the minimums.

    If I were one of the January/early February internationals, I'd put in a hefty late fee and earn some cash.
  15. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    That's not necessarily true for KAZ.. They already have a decent 2nd skater :Abzal Rakimgaliev, who already went to Vancouver and has made the Worlds minimun score this year. Georgia never uses its 2nd ladies spot though.

    As for feds taking advantage of spots and sending poor quality skaters , UKR still used its 2nd pair spot at Vancouver (they were really really bad) and EST sent a junior dance team (which were painful to watch) when the qualified team couldnt go due to citizenship issues.
  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Shtork/Rand were juniorish and among the weakest in Vancouver. A few seasons later they've made both TES World minimums with room to spare.
  17. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say qualified for Olympics, I said qualified for World's, and presumably if they could do that, they could meet these minimums too. However, I think I was wrong, I went and looked at the qualifying scores and the three skaters I was thinking of don't appear to be on it, but neither is anyone else from those countries.
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    ISU is being very successful in making figure skating a more and more exclusive sport with limited participation. :mad:
  19. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    I agree.. isn't that part of what the olympics movement is about for us to be introduced to athletes from those countries that don't have rinks on every corner and ample amounts of money.. where a double axel and a triple sal is their triple triple.. :confused:
  20. BreakfastClub

    BreakfastClub Active Member

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    Trifun Zivanovic... so way third tier by the time he competed in 2006 for Serbia. :slinkaway
  21. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Thirty years ago or so, didn't China send some STAGGERINGLY bad pairs skaters to Worlds/Olympics? One of whom was Yao Bin, who used the chance to learn as much as he possibly could to take back to China and help create the Chinese pairs powerhouse? I don't really see what the harm is in allowing "noncompetitive" countries to send a competitor that's "bad", especially to the Olympics-it's not supposed to be about one or two countries steamrolling everyone else. And you never know where the next star might come from if given the exposure.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  22. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I think other sports even have a system in place for this. That's how we get the Sculling Sloth in rowing and Eric the Eel in swimming. Both of whom are excited to bring these sports back to their countries.
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    That's a very good point. Yao Bin was terrible when he competed (he was the first Chinese pair skater in history, though) but he ended up coaching World and Olympic champions, showing just how much important it is for the ISU to open up and give opportunities for skaters in developing countries to let the sport develop there.
  24. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    So, the countries that will make it:
    USA, Canada, China, Japan, France, Russia, Italy

    The ones fighting for the last 3 spots:
    Korea, Finland, Ukraine, Germany, the UK, Spain, Sweden, Czech Republic, Israel, AZE, ...
  25. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    I think Germany is pretty safe IN for the team competition. Overall very decent competitors in all categories. The last 2 spots should go to UKR and GBR which are overall weak but at least they have competitive skaters in all categories. All the other countries lack representation in at least one category, most notoriouly pairs.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I agree about Germany. They'll get lots of points in Pairs, and shouldn't be far behind GBR in Dance! If at all. The only other team listed who are middle-of-the-pack strong in Dance are AZE. KOR will have points mainly from YuNa Kim, FIN from Korpi, ESP from Fernandez, CZE from Brezina, SWE from Majorov and V. Helgesson. GBR might make it, too, since only the Men are extremely weak.

    On the other hand, if the TES minimums are high, and appointed skaters have to meet the minimums, it will be interesting to see which teams will be able to make appointments, as points to qualify teams aren't limited to TES qualified skaters, so the team will qualify, but the skaters whose points were used, can't always skate.
  27. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

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    Assuming Japan can make the technical minimum with their inexperienced pair...
  28. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Japan should qualify as one of the 10 teams for the SP portion, even if they don't have pairs points, based on the sheer strength of their singles skaters plus Reed/Reed in dance.

    From the qualification system document:
  29. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    I hate the reverse-World Standing start order methods being used, yet I see they are using it once again here for every discipline short program/short dance. In a field of ten maximum skaters, don't you think they could have just made the draws random rather than giving the judges reason to boost GOE and PCS based on later skaters?
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Japan should make it on the strength of their singles scores and with points from the Reeds. Whatever the new pair would earn from GP's and 4C's is gravy, since everyone who finishes in a GP dance or pairs field gets points, and all competitors up to 24th place, three times the number of entries at 4C's this year, get points at Euros/4C's.

    The skaters who earn WS points for the team to qualify neither have to have the minimum TES nor even have to be on the Olympic team. The country doesn't have to qualify for the discipline for the individual events.

    Once the teams qualify after all the WS points are added up, TES minimums limit which individuals/teams can compete. If appointed skaters -- those chosen where the country has qualified for the team event, but has not earned a spot for the discipline -- don't have the minimums, and the minimums apply to them, then JPN can compete in the SD/SP with entries in three disciplines.

    Taken literally, were Takahashi and her new partner to qualify a spot for Sochi at Nebelhorn -- the Pairs field is thin enough for this to be a possibility, but they can't meet the minimums, if minimums don't apply to appointed skaters, then I'm not sure they could be appointed, since JPN qualified a spot, but didn't have qualified skaters.

    If JPN cares about the team event, they should get all of this clarified ahead of time.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  31. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Well, some standards should be in place to prevent this level of skating from going to Worlds or the Olympics. It is possible to send skaters that are bad enough to be a safety danger to other teams on their warm-up. That said, current standard is skewed the other way, and most likely prevents decent skaters from gaining valuable experience. Hopefully, next ISU congress will vote on bringing back qualifying rounds.
  32. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Although the Pairs field is weak, I don't think it's so weak that the truly scary teams would qualify at Worlds or Nebelhorn.

    Euros: 15 Pairs
    • 14 of 15 re-made the Euros/4C's TES SP Minimum (20)
    • 13 of 15 re-made the Euros/4C's TES FS Minimum (36)
    • 7 of 15 teams re-made the original Worlds TES SP Minimum (28)
    • 10 of 15 teams re-made the new Worlds TES SP Minimum (24)
    • 9 of 15 teams re-made the original Worlds TES FS Minimum (45)
    • 11 of 15 teams re-made the new Worlds TES FS Minimum (41)

    Of these teams, GER and FRA had one more Pair each than they'll have in London, but GER has a very good chance of getting back three, like they had at Euros, and James/Cipres have a good shot at making Top 10 to earn two for France. RUS should easily retain three, and ITA should easily retain two. I think the numbers will be stable going into Sochi.

    4C's: 7 Pairs (+ 1 WD and only two from CHN)
    • All re-made the Euros/4C's TES Minimums for SP (20) and FS (36)
    • 6 of 7 teams re-made the original Worlds TES SP Minimum (28)
    • All re-made the new Worlds TES SP Minimum (24)
    • All re-made the original and new Worlds TES FS Minimums (45/41)


    Two of those teams are from countries (CAN, CHN) that would have to earn three in London, with Canada having a much better shot than USA. CHN will have to re-earn three, which is going to be tough with an ailing Pang/Tong. The 4C's field might be two down there, plus one from Japan, if they can make whatever minimums are set, if they apply to appointed skaters.
  33. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Re-posting from the 2013 Worlds forum:
    "Twenty-four (24) qualification places for men and ladies each... nineteen (19) qualification places in Ice Dance will be determined after the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2013" [5 countries will vie for the remaining dance spots at Nebelhorn].

    Note: The judges by country draw for the Olympics will take place during Nebelhorn Trophy.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  34. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    It may be necessary to eliminate multiple entries from a country that has only one successful skater.

    For instance, Kazakhstan has earned two spots thanks to Denis Ten's performance. So without the mininum score, their second skater, who finished 28th in the SP, would qualify for the Olympics, whereas 5 national champions who beat him at the Worlds would not qualify. He may still qualify instead of them, but at least he has to satisfy some minimal criteria.

    It could have been worse, actually. If Kazakhstan had not sent a second skater to the Worlds, they would have qualified three skaters for the Olympics. So there should be some way of eliminating such anomalies.

    I think that's a good idea. :)
  35. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    This is what I never understand. Why draw the judges five months in advance and give them the whole season to put their politics in place and hand out presents to each other's skaters at the various events? :confused:
  36. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    The mere fact that Rakimgaliev (2nd KAZ guy) was actually at Worlds means he already has the TES min scores, so unless ISU decides to raise the numbers again (doubt it), he will be at Sochi (he was at Vancouver too).
  37. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    I think you just answered yourself ;):scream::p
  38. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    From this new article titled "ISU's Dore talks Olympic team figure skating event": http://www.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130316&content_id=42839970&vkey=ice_news
  39. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link. I can't say that the following surprises me, but it's still disappointing that this is the reason for the unfortunate scheduling of the team event:

    :wall:
  40. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    "Other sports" have qualifying heats. In swimming and athletics/track & field, every country that doesn't have anyone who meets any of the qualifying standards is allowed to enter 1 man and 1 woman. (Usually, they end up in the shortest events - in fact, the men's 100m at London started with a few heats consisting entirely of these runners, with something like two from each race advancing to the "real" competition - but every now and then, some joker country puts somebody in the men's marathon.) If they could have a second ice surface available (or if they didn't have the team competition), ISU could do something along the lines of the old "qualifying round", except that it would be limited to countries that did not otherwise qualify for the event; the top 4 or so would advance to the short program. (Refresh my memory: did worlds ever have a qualifying round after the new scoring system came into place?)

    As for why the minimum qualifying score is necessary for the Olympics, I agree with the "it's to prevent someone who has little business being there riding the coattails of someone who got that country a second/third entry" people. (I also noticed that, if a country does not fill all of its spots, the vacant ones are filled based on Nebelhorn results.)