Quad or Bust???

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by aftershocks, Oct 23, 2011.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Well ... I guess if you are capable of doing the quad, but have a strategy of holding back on it and are loved by the judges b/c you are a very good jumper and improving on artistry, then you can win all the marbles (at least on the GP circuit).

    I'm quadconfused :duh: :huh:

    Oh well. Kevin VP, you :wuzrobbed: Good grief, and KVP was never really a favorite of mine. Hope KVP continues to give it his all and wins GOLD at Europeans. Please... show KVP some love skate gods!

    The sexy-voiced one has time to improve and earn his wins (I do love his programs, but the free is still a work-in-progress -- he needs to do so much better with the choreo and building with the music). Oh well, Chan, the Brez, and the Gach officially loved by judges and can do little wrong. Will the Brez ditch his coaches? Who are those guys anyway?

    What-up with Ricky? Dynomite sp (judges didn't show him love). RD can land quad in competition too, but can someone please tell me why some skaters proceed to lose their triple axel after training and competing the quad???

    Looks like the ISU still doesn't know what to do re judging quads or lack thereof, or failed attempts, or no attempts, vs excellent skating skills, vs so-so ss, and excellent jumping ability. :scream: FS, I wish I could quit ya... :wall:

    BTW, if someone (Sandra, Terry, Scott) is looking for "Silky Skating," why not send out an SOS to the unmentionable one?
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
  2. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    If Joubert had performed lik VDP he would have won here. VDP PCS is so low. Kozuka was not on at all. Skating last was a big benefit to Brezina but almost wasn't. He almost lost with a huge PCS advantage.
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Not intending to rehash the comp here! I'm bemoaning the sad state of FS. Puhleeze someone, help... OGM Evan, you missed a great opportunity apparently, but then again, do you really want to come back to this antiquated, confusing state of affairs? A somewhat jump shaky but soulful Kozuka .27 behind the solid, quad-confident KVP. Then how please in the world did Mr. Sexy-Voice (quite handsome too) with that way off-the-mark free program and no quad in either program (*and I sure don't love the quad, but I thought it was so d**n important these days) still end up in front of KVP??? Did the Brez serenade the judges backstage before the event? :violin:

    Who were the judges ... and again, who are those guys in the kiss 'n cry with the Brez?

    One thing was clear ... the stands were fairly empty. Would have been full in Japan, Korea, Russia, China, even Canada. Belly-up, U.S. Figure Skating. Get with it, please someone ...

    Okay ce, as you say IJS judging. But, it just doesn't work -- doesn't make sense to anyone, much less the casual viewer -- and not even the winning skater. Where's the icon for tearing my hair out? I know, "take a chill pill, aftershocks."
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
  4. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Maybe the fact that Kevin VanderPerren has the PCS of a floating turd has something to do with Kozuka being so close behind, as well as Brezina being ahead. Not that the minds of some posters here are capable of understanding the difference in quality of skating between some skaters. Obviously.
  5. bek

    bek Guest

    Joubert is a much better skater than VDP. Brian in his prime skated with power and speed. And Brian's a better spinner too...
  6. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Okay sure, Kasey, blame it on KVDP lack of PCS. He gets no love, even when it's so obvious how hard he's been trying. I for one, do see in Kevin, some inspired skating here and a bit of improvement. That doesn't mean I'm a big fan of KVDP skating or can't tell the difference as you say "in quality of skating between some skaters." What does "quality of skating" mean to the judges is the real mystery. Also, its problematical trying to decipher what IJS changes actually mean this season. I prefer to trust my own eyes and sensibilities in any case. Guess the judges wanted to give KVDP credit for quad and solid skating and staying on his feet, and felt Kosuka made too many mistakes that his superior ss could not surmount. That still does not account for why the Brez prevailed (except for how much judges love him) without a quad in either program and so many misses in the fp. Also, does not account for Ricky being dissed in the sp.

    And still, can anyone explain why some skaters begin to lose their 3axels after training and competing the quad?
  7. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Joubert is better than VDP. I think unlike VDP, Joubert could have gotten the PCS in the SP to win this event. What made me think of Joubert is that he has beaten Brezina even when he was cleaner unlike VDP.
  8. bek

    bek Guest

    Joubert and VDP both jump quads, and tend to have empty programs, but thats where the similarity ends. Brian has charisma and in his prime skated with power and speed. In contrast VDP is not really a performer whatsover and skates very slowly. Its an insult to Joubert to compare the two.

    Its almost like comparing Ando to Flatt (although Jouberts a better performer than Ando). Ando may be a bit boring but the quality of her jumps are better and she skates with power and speed. Flatt doesn't (although yes VDP is a better jumper than Flatt.)

    Look it was close between Brezina and VDP. But this isn't Patrick Chan beating Nobunari Oda with four falls. My issue with Chan coming out there is while Chan's the bette skater, Oda himself is no sloach in the skating skills department.

    And as for the comparing Kozuka and Brezina situation. Brezina came on top due the the short program. Where he absolutely deserved his big lead. I'd also point out that while Kevin had the quad, he didn't have a clean triple axel if I recall, and didn't Brezina have two. In my book two high quality triple axels cancel out one quad with no triple axel. Kevin deserved to win the free and I guess it can go either way but its not like he didn't have his own issues.
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I like the Brez. He's showing some improvement in artistry ... but ugh, his PCS close to Kozuka's? The Brez' choreo in fp is lacking, and he did not demonstrate a great deal of musicality to some great music for skating (see Derrick Delmore's Untouchables program -- much more exciting and interpretive of the music, even if Delmore was not always consistent on his jumps). I think judges are blinded by Brez' jumping ability, but he missed the mark on those in his fp. And, what about all the "quad or bust" claims for this season, when obviously skaters favored by judges can fall on quads or leave them out and still win. (It was a nice and familiar sp for the Brez, but again, he should not be rated equal, close to or better than Kozuka on PCS -- and he left out the quad in sp too! Is the quad important or not? Or is it only skaters not known to have them who must prove they can land them, and those with the rep can slide by on their rep).

    Guess I'll have to ask Ricky or Lambiel, what is it that causes them to lose their 3axels after training and competing quads.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
  10. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

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    You don't get points just for trying hard, because it's an elite sport and everyone is trying really, really hard. It's a skating competition, and KVDP can't skate. I have literally seen children on the juvenile and intermediate level with better skating skills. The current US and Canadian novice champions could do KVDP's programs with their eyes closed, on their bad sides, and still probably get twice his speed. Jumps should never be valued for their own sake when the skating skills are waaaaay below par, and KVDP simply doesn't have the skills of a senior man. Just like being able to do fouettes doesn't make you a ballerina, and being able to doing a back flip doesn't make you a gymnast. KVDP has one trick. That he's been held up as much as he has in the past is frankly an embarrassment to the sport. We're supposed to believe the judges that KVDP has skating skills that are better than Amodio, seriously? It's a joke.
  11. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Here here!

    The notion that KVDP should be a gold medalist based on one element when the rest of his PCS are sadly lacking is really quite laughable.
  12. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    He can't be a gold medalists even when everyone stinks? He doubled a jump but that was his worst error. But I can see some think is biggest error was lack of skating ability! Skating with mediocre jumps is better than non-skating with jumps. Still think it might have been better if VDP won. He can skate-he's not as bad as some of these posts make him out to be. Obviously a clean Brezina or anyone really who has the jumps and everything should always beat VDP but here I think the question is legitimate!
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL, I agree, I'm training really hard at every practice, but I'm not Olympic champion ! And don't deserve it, anyway !

    It's just a pitty that the best skaters of the competition were not able to win the Free Skate over KVDP.
  14. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Did KVP win the free skate ? I like KVP and happy that he won a medal, but one quad does not a program make. His overall skating skills haven't improved since 2003. Still, not bad for an "old" dude :cool:.
  15. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Yes he did! I too was happily surprised. I hope he could get to the top in Euro champs:)
  16. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy Well-Known Member

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    It's Kevin's overall quality that bothers me the most. His jumps are very good, but he's SO STIFF, both his back and his legs reminds me of solid timber, he doesn't bend his knees enough, he keeps waving his arms, but his edges are short and...stiff. He has no flow in his steps and his spins are so slow they are painful to watch. Stiff. Stiff!

    I'm not saying Kozuka or Brezina left a great overall impression yesterday, but they have a complete package of good quality skating in all elements, not just jumps, and their basic is gorgeous. It's not like I wanna roll around in pain when I watch them...hence KVDP!

    KVDP is the kind of skater I want to mould and bend and shake like jelly to make him loosen up.... his steps and moves seems so forced. And it's reaaaaaally bothering me!
  17. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    The thing about it is, when I saw KVDP go out in the warm-up, I was rolling my eyes and saying to myself, "Why isn't he retired already? I thought he said he was retiring." I too am guilty of not liking KVDP's skating, but I must say he is not a bad person and should be respected not for just trying, but for succeeding. He obviously wanted to come back because he enjoys skating, despite lacking exquisite skills in many areas. However, if the judges agreed with all you who feel KVDP "can't skate," and is no better than a juvenile, intermediate or novice skater, then he should have come in last no matter what he did. Clearly, Ricky, Murakami, and even Razzano have better overall skating skills than KVDP. Right, knowledgeable about quality fans? Ha, ha, the judges probably began to experience heart palpitations halfway through the Brez' sloppy, "safe" skate. "KVDP is in first, and the Brez is falling apart ... how much leeway do we have in the marks to avoid the 'mockery' of awarding KVDP the gold??"

    Under the circumstances of this event, KVDP deserved to win, or else IJS needs to go back to the drawing board, as usual, because the judging system is still such a huge work-in-progress. If KVDP didn't deserve to win, then why was Kozuka placed behind him? If Kozuka was placed behind KVDP, then Brezina deserved to be behind KDVP as well. Kozuka has way better artistry than both, despite having problems with his jumps. Apparently, jumps will always trump, and often high PCS are awarded to skaters with great jumping ability like Brez, who in fact are lacking in presentation and artistry. While he is not as stiff as KVDP, Brez is still in need of great improvement in choreo, musicality, and overall presentation. The Brez has good programs this season, and maybe he needs new coaches as well, in order to fully realize his potential.

    Looking at what went down in the competition, at least Kevin completed difficult elements, stayed on his feet, and gave us his version of inspired skating (with a nod to Yags). Truly that is nothing to spit at, under the circumstances of this event. IJS judging is hoist by its own petard. This men's event is a great example of that. If everyone skated as well as they could skate, as the likeable and never-say-die Kevin VDP did, then obviously the judges would have fared better -- their job would have been made easier.

    When nearly everyone falls apart on the ice, the holes in the judging system become all the more gaping and :eek: I say men, go out there and overcome your limitations. If the skating skills and PCS-challenged KVDP can cop silver and win the fp (I don't care how early in the season it is), think what all you 'more talented' skaters should be able to do ... with or without favor from the judges. Can things get any worse before they get better? From now on, KVDP, I'm a fan!
  18. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Exactly- VDP was already judged better than Kozuka so why not Brezina as well?
  19. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Why was KVDP overscored? Great question. It's hard to knock a relatively clean skate even if everything outside of a single aspect is quite lacking.
  20. ks1227

    ks1227 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and I'm not really a big fan of Joubert. In fact, VDP has even emptier programs between the jumps than Joubert.

    That said, I admire VDP for sticking with skating and doing what he does at his age. I just wish he hadn't beaten my favorite, Kozuka, whose skating I much prefer to either Joubert or VDP, even when Kozuka is missing his big jumps as he was at SA.
  21. bek

    bek Guest

    VDP WAS judged better than Brezina in the long program. Its just that Brezina had a huge lead in the short. Kozuka also messed up the short, so had no short program lead to hold him up in the long.
  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Okay, somewhat similar to Alissa edging Carolina by a miniscule margin due to having at least a 3-point margin in the sp. Still, this is way too complicated judging for me, particularly when the competitors are all over the place with their performances.

    Why don't they just have a separate jumping contest, a separate figures contest (yes bring back figures for young athletes to have a choice of competing if they are good in figures), and then award individual medals in the sp, and the lp, with the top six competitors overall competing in a final all-around category to win medals that would carry the major clout? Of course, this probably will never happen, although the team concept appears to be in the works.
  23. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Shouldn't this thread, again, be in the Kiss and Cry despite its name?
  24. bek

    bek Guest


    I'm not sure how you can argue that Kostner vs Alissa compares with Michal vs Kevin. Alissa and Kostner are both top skaters in this sport with their own strengths/weaknesses vs each other.

    In contrast, I can't really think of a single thing KVP does better than Michal at Michal's best. Yes KVP landed the quad and Michal didn't. But Michal's triple axel is so much better it cancels it out. Michal quality wise is pretty much the best jumper in this sport. The jumps he landed correctly at Skate America were of the highest quality. Add in then the fact that Michal has much better performance quality even at his worst (does KVP ever pay attention to the crowd). Michal skates with speed and power, has choregraphy,transitions and Musicality, better footwork...

    If anything the difference between Michal and KVP after the short should have been greater.


    I hate the concept of messy skates winning medals, but this doesn't mean I think people like Timothy Goebel or KVP should be winning championships. Quality of basic skating matters and it matters a lot. When you have two skaters who are both quality skaters with good basics, lets say Patrick Chan vs Nobunari Oda. I'm willing to say even though Chan's basics are better, okay give it to Oda if Chan's falling over the place.

    But if you get a skater whose basic skating quality is poor, they deserve to have a huge PCS disadvantage-every time.

    Once again Michal was terrible in the free, and can live with KVP winning that portion. But to cry foul over Michal's short program lead is ridiculous. There was a gigantic difference between the two in the short.
  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Plus, Michal can land two different quads in a program (2011 Worlds LP), something KVDP never did. :p
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I'm not taking issue at all with Michal Brezina's lead in the sp. The program was very good and familiar to him since it isn't new (even though I don't feel Michal is that musical or polished in his presentation skills -- he is definitely improving and certainly has better overall ss than KVDP). My point re Alissa edging Kostner being similar (to outcome with KVDP and Brez) was only in the sense of both Alissa and Brez having had leads in their sp which helped them maintain their leads overall despite having mistakes in the free (altho' Brez had more mistakes, and a greater lead in the sp than his competitors). I was not making any comparison at all re Alissa and Kostner being two top competitors who are closer in overall ability than KVDP and Brez. That's obvious.

    Anyway, the points are moot at this point, and one of my main questions (re why some skaters training/ competing quads begin to have problems with 3axel) remains unanswered. I guess it's unanswerable.
  27. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I didn't really see your question in your original post. ;)
    Anyway, I think it's about jumping technique. Axel and other jumps techniques are very, very different. I don't do quads, nor 3Axels, but for the 3axel, you don't start the rotation immediately (or it's a roller skating technique, ala Tara Lipinski), although for quads, you must start it as soon as possible.
    I don't know if I'm clear, but in my mind, it's very clear ! :lol:
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your answer, briancoogaert. It must be an individual problem based on a number of factors, i.e., difference in technique; the mental and physical energy required to put a quad in a program; and then maybe one's timing on 3axel entry is off, maybe due to an endurance issue. I wonder what the affected skaters think goes wrong?

    Also, my initial question, re thread title: If one of the keys to successful competition this season are "Quad or Bust," why didn't not performing the quad in either program hurt Brezina? I guess one answer is the overall competition was crappy to begin with and he skated better in the sp without the quad (lucky in his skate order, because he and his coaches determined he didn't need the quad). If the quad is so important tho' Brez definitely should have threw in at least one in the free program, which it seems might have helped Brez' mental focus and decreased his unfocused mistakes.
  29. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    In short he is a better overall skater than KVDP. And I thought his SP was fantastic. I think people still have a hard time understanding that a program is not the sum of one jump but it has to be a balance of everything. That is what was being rewarded.

    It might be a different story at a different event, but at SA that was the way it panned out.
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a problem with your reasoning Aussie Willy (the argument re KVDP and Brez is exhausted and exhausting. Brez is a better overall skater and jumper than KVDP, sure, but KVDP performed closer to his level of ability than Brezina did in the free program. Yeah and I know that doesn't mean KVDP should win. Still, a very sloppy win for Brez that would also be confusing for casual viewers).

    IN any case, I am not a proponent of the quad. IMO, the results of Skate America would seem to indicate that "Quad or Bust" is not necessarily one of the keys to winning (at least not this early in the season; at least not at SA where skaters were rusty and made many mistakes, and the skater who performed the best in the sp even w/o a quad ended up winning largely because of his lead in the sp). To me, the situation also indicates that as usual IJS is inconsistent, complicated and constantly in need of fixes, often based on how the wind blows from season to season.
  31. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is complicated. Skating itself is an incredibly technical sport and it is very easy to break everything down to the endth degree. But because it is so technical I think it is a necessary evil is to have a system to match.
  32. bek

    bek Guest

    But why shouldn't leads in the short be a valid reason to win? Nobody screams because in basketball, someone won because one team had a 30 point lead from the 3rd quarter and the team behind them brought it to 2/3 points but no dice...

    Brezina skated terribly for Brezina. But he still landed 6 triples in that program including 2 gorgeous triple axels. He skated that long program pretty well until the end where he lost steam.

    I absolutely do think IJS needs to take into account messy skates etc, but its not like KVP was perfect himself (and no was there 4 falls from Michal either)

    It would be one thing if someone like Dornbush had skated well throughout and the judges didn't give it to him IMO. But that's not the case.

    My issue with Chan for example is not when he's winning over the KVPs with multiple mistakes but when he's getting placed over extremely good skaters with all of those mistakes.
  33. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Who said tho' that leads in the short aren't a valid reason to win? It's simply a fact that their sp leads are largely the reason Brez won, and one of the reasons Alissa was able to edge Carolina for the gold. Perhaps another reason to rethink and down the road maybe award separate medals for the sp and the fp.

    What I said at the start of this thread is that I'm quad-confused, especially as a viewer being told that it's "Quad or Bust" this season. Casual viewers may also have been confused by the fact the winner did not land the so-important quad (albeit that those new to fs have a hard time figuring out the difference between jumps and how many rotations were in a jump anyways).

    In addition to IJS being as you say Aussie Willy, a "necessary evil," there is a lot of inconsistency in the scoring between judges, not to mention the ever-present political aspect of the sport when it comes to judging. I for one do not accept IJS as a "necessary evil" simply because the sport is so "technical" and "complicated." ISU was between a rock and a hard place after 2002 scandal and IOC demands to resolve the scandal by fixing --no pun intended, I think ;)-- their judging system. The heat from the IOC I believe is the major reason why the ISU forced an imperfect new scoring system into place and have been scrambling ever since to make it better. The other major reason was to protect the judges. The skaters and the integrity of the sport as a whole, in my estimation, were afterthoughts in the way the ISU initially constructed and forced IJS/ CoP into place.

    What got short shrift, what went missing in the "breakdown" was the concept of the whole, and the importance of understanding that the artistic side is equally as worthy and integral to the sport as the technical side. The promotion and tagline for instituting CoP, was that 'now the artistic elements will be significantly rewarded,' which turns out to have been false, altho' it was a convenient selling point for CoP. As a matter of fact, it is hard to judge artistry and presentation at all, much less by codification and "breaking elements down." Programs need to be viewed as a whole. Yes, we are talking about subjectivity and a complicated sport. Such complications were not effectively taken into account with IJS. Therefore, the seasonal scrambling. And meanwhile, PCS are just another way to manipulate marks for the overall placements.

    IJS is definitely a work-in-progress, and something that will continue to be argued for some time. As David Kirby discusses in the recent manleywoman podcast, it might be 50 years down the road before the IJS judging system will work effectively. Clearly, many of us won't be around to see it. In the meantime, arguing and debating and making suggestions and trying to understand what is currently in place, and trying to enjoy the things about skating that drew us to it in the first place, are perhaps all we can do.
  34. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    Is this really surprising considering all the injuries and surgeries he has had?

    Earlier in his career VDP did skate with more speed than he does now, but he's been on the eligible scene for quite a long while now, and it's kind of sad that he has not developed his skating skills more in all this time. That is what frustrates me most about his skating.

    Based on the technical content, he did deserve to win the Free Skate at Skate America. But overall, I think the final results were correct.

    I do have to kind of :lol: at whomever posted VDP "can't skate," though. I only wish I could skate that poorly. :p
  35. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ :respec:

    Me, I wanna jump like Midori Ito and skate like Janet Lynn.
  36. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

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    :D
  37. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL, that's why I respect every elite skater, since they are all better than me.
    And that's weird, but, when I'm on the ice with a good skater, that's really really impressive. But on TV, those skaters can look slow and laborious.

    Anyway, KVDP is an elite skater, and for an elite skater, he is a very good jumper, but a weak overall skater.
  38. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    I don't really disagree with this. He might make a good jumping coach once he retires.
  39. crs

    crs New Member

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    Is amazing to hear how the quad is absolutely necessary NOW to win a comp but not at last year's Olys. lol! No wonder the sport is in such DECLINE.
  40. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    It's hardly a new phenomenon. How many times have we heard "The lady who wins this or that event will have to have a 3/3" and then seen it won by someone with only 3/2's?