Project Runway 10 Starts Tonight

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by FiveRinger, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. Bostonfan

    Bostonfan Well-Known Member

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    The judging is known to go on for quite some time, so the few edited minutes that we get don't show a complete picture. I'm curious how often the judges call Tim out to ask him about something that occurred in the workroom, or if that was the 1st time.
  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I think the fact the judges appreciate Ven's tailoring and construction skills is why he is still hanging around.

    I feel sorry for Gunnar that he came close to winning last week and then was unable to come up with something better or at the least safe re a print for this week's challenge. Gunnar was trying to access a truth from his past, but he really needed to rethink his sketch of the hands and the bird trying to break free. Plus, he was also stymied by not coming up with a good jacket design. Neither the print nor the jacket design worked. His original sketch for an equestrian style outfit with a long skirt looked way better than his final garments. I was sorry to see Gunnar go, but he handled it very graciously and he seemed to feel that he'd learned something of value going forward. And, at least Gunnar got the chance to show at Fashion Week, and he came up with a cohesive thematic collection that I liked, even though it is not stellar and not a standout. Mondo seemed to feel that Ven should be auf'ed this week rather than Gunnar.

    I thought it was great to see the designers with their families, and it did give them somewhat of a lift emotionally, and humanize them to a degree. Altho' ITA with susan6 re Ven's sister surely in his eyes not being "the right body type." Too bad Ven was so nasty to his client in the "real woman" challenge, and in general so arrogant at the start of the season. He does seem to have been whittled down to size a bit in that respect.

    I too agree, skatesindreams, that often the judges' critiques end up stifling the points of view of many designers (not to mention the fact they are so burnt out at the end of the season) to the point where their collections tend not to live up to our high expectations.

    So glad Dimitri finally won a challenge. Well deserved! Too bad he made mistakes in his final collection (especially with the styling of his models, which so detracts from his designs). This week, the judges warned Dimitri to watch out re over-designing (doing too much). However, the show and the judging is kind of contradictory, because in earlier challenges this season, Dimitri was criticized for being too conservative and not doing enough. Guess it resulted in a bit of confusion for him re his final collection. No wonder.

    Chris' look for the print challenge was not good. He was off and uninspired this week. I liked Sonjia's work this week -- makes me even more disappointed re the results of her collection for Fashion Week. Well, Elena was safe again for a less than scintillating design. It will be interesting to see who actually made the final three. I hate the fact Elena might win it all on the basis of her well-styled and cohesive final collection where she seemed to learn to stop making bulky outfits that make her models look overweight. Ven might still be in the running for final three (despite Tim's criticisms).

    I still love Tim. It is up to the designers to not take critiques personally, but to be creative and resourceful enough to "make it work!" Yes, it isn't easy to do that 100% of the time under the PR format.
  3. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    In this particular case - where the challenge itself was supposed to convey a personal statement, it would be difficult not to.
  4. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    But none of those designers ever used such a distinctive feature as Ven's "fabrigami" (thanks to whoever here coined that) roses over and over and over ad nauseum. You can have distinctive and signature features (I think of DVF wraps and prints) but to put one design feature on every single thing you make just gets old. It's why Coach doesn't put the "C" print on every single bag they make. They wouldn't sell high volume if they did. Diane Von Furstenberg designs dresses in solids and non-wrap designs, even though most people would consider that her distinction. She has to in order to have wide enough appeal.
  5. hydro

    hydro Well-Known Member

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    Plus, the "Ven signature" didn't really work with the textile. It looked completely out of place, so I can understand the criticism of including it.
  6. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Since we never saw the first look, completed and - I doubt that Tim did, either; we can't know if the criticism was justified.
  7. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Was Tim's criticism harsh and leaning toward obnoxiousness, yes perhaps. But Tim has a good eye for design and he has a genuinely loveable personality/ persona. If I was a designer in that position (hopefully I would not be as arrogant as Ven tho') and Tim gave me such a critique, I wouldn't get pissed and down about it. I would quickly try to figure out where I erred and how I could still "make it work." It was too late perhaps for Ven to change the print design, but perhaps he should not have tried to use it the way he did re red flower applied to a white background. He might have been better off using the flower in an all-over print design. His obsession with draping and manipulating fabric into a flower can work well, but it can also prove limiting, as it did for this week's challenge.

    Tim could only critique the initial effort based on what he saw, and the direction he saw it going in. It was up to Ven to defend what he was doing and where he was going. The fact he didn't or couldn't is likely because he was unsure of his direction in this challenge. What he ended up with bears that out.

    Many designers have received harsh criticism from Tim (he's on their side and trying to help without actually doing the work for them himself ;)) Sometimes designers have ignored Tim's comments and stuck with their original ideas, e.g., the designer earlier this season in the craft challenge who kept going and ended up with something that turned out to be safe and not quite as bad as it looked initially -- she did slightly modify I think but stuck with her original dotty apron-like idea. Tim isn't always right, but he tends to be. I don't think he feels he knows it all. He asks the designers questions, and he offers suggestions. If he feels strongly about something, he lets them know. In this case, Tim may have been off the mark (and/ or offensive in the estimation of some viewers) with the phrasing of his critique, but I think Tim was also being very sincere about what the judges' reactions might be, and he wasn't off the mark there. Tim voiced exactly how he felt in order to help Ven think about making adjustments before sending such a hot mess down the runway.

    Of course the challenge was about making a personal statement based on the designers' own heritage/ personal experiences. Ultimately, if you want to survive and thrive as a designer, gaining inspiration from something that moves or affects you personally can be an asset, but allowing oneself to take criticism personally could be a stumbling block. If a designer does that on PR, they might soon be auf'ed. If they take criticism personally as an aspiring designer, they likely will never make it to the top in the world of fashion.
  8. Jenya

    Jenya Well-Known Member

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    Dmitry! :cheer2: Loved the whole look, he totally deserved the win.

    So over Ven. :blah:
  9. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I actually thought Ven's print was awful, when I first saw it. The flowers were too big, too cartoonish and too far apart. Then, it occurred to me that this was Ven. That, with all of his pleating he would use up all of the blank, white space with folds and bring the flowers closer together and give them dimension. He did nothing like that. The dress was not ugly, but disappointing.

    I thought Tim was right, but his words were rather questionable.
  10. Jem X

    Jem X Awaiting Skate America

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    Well Heidi told Ven that the judges were tired of the rose look and not to keep repeating the same look over and over. Ven's final collection is the same look over and over with roses. I guess this means that Ven is "out" and his final collection is an " F U" message to the judges.
  11. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    This might well have been Ven's intention; but, after Tim's critique, he didn't dare risk it.

    I was shocked and stunned by Tim's comments; and I have nothing "invested" in the outcome.
    I can only imagine how Ven might have felt.
  12. Jem X

    Jem X Awaiting Skate America

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    And since the judges questioned Dmitri's styling, and his final collection has the heavy brow styling, this could also mean that Dmitri is out.
  13. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    I've seen the heavy brow styling used by other designers. I don't find it jarring.

    I think Tim's comments hurt Ven deeply. As sensitive as they were to Gunnar, they were equally insensitive to Ven. Maxi pads be damned, I'd rather see his original dress than the fabrigami dress he scrambled to make.

    It's interesting that he's been compared to Marchesa, because Marchesa went with an Indian theme for their Spring 2013 collection. And, as I've said before, Ven will have no problems selling his dresses.

    I can never predict what the outcome will be. Given that Lord & Taylor is part of the prize, I suspect Chris, Ven and Dimitry would fare quite well. I did enjoy Elena's collection though and wouldn't be surprised if they tapped her for the "All Stars" season, which was just filmed.

    I've been to a few "Project Runway" finales and audience reaction isn't a good gauge. Gretchen got a horrible reaction from the audience (even the other "bitch" Ivy was well received) and her clothes were SO boring. It was clear in the finale Heidi was "outvoted" as well. So we'll see!
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I've seen the heavy dark brow styling used effectively before. On Dimitri's models it just didn't work, IMO. I think the brow look detracted from Dimitri's designs.

    Poor Ven. Bad ol' Tim. But well, at least Ven might now know a little about how crappy he might have made his client feel during the "real woman" challenge with his arrogant and insensitive comments. Being drawn to make flowers in his fashions due to cultural reasons is admirable, but Ven perhaps might have been better served in the latest challenge by trying something completely different and unexpected.

    There are many instances when I've felt that designers on PR have been unfairly treated or too harshly criticized, but Ven is not the first designer that I would think of in this regard.
  15. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    i hope i like the designs better when i see them in motion. if i had to declare a winner right now, i think i'd leave it blank like the ladies spot at 1994 nats.
  16. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Laura Bennett coined the word "fabrigami". She used it to describe Andy South's work on Season 8. I miss her blog posts.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  17. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    There is a big difference between valid criticism and distasteful and insulting comments; particularly when they are delivered by someone who is a mentor/producer of the program.
  18. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    What we see is heavily edited. Take the judging portion as an example: They call Tim in, he repeats his comments, follows up with "I just want to share with you my frustration with Ven." And then nothing. No elaboration. To me, "I just want to share with you my frustration with Ven" is an intro, not an ending. I think there was a lot more said after that but the editing monkeys cut it out. Same with Tim's initial critique - they picked what they thought were the best bits and scrapped the rest. Who knows what else he said to Ven? Maybe something like, "You've done the fabrigami fan four times and the florigami rose four times, move on, Ven. Think outside your little box."

    FWIW, one of the posters on TLo said that s/he'd gone to one of Tim Gunn's book-signing parties and someone apparently asked about Ven. Tim's reply was that the editing monkeys had been very kind to Ven and that his real personality is what we all saw in the makeover episode when he treated his client like sh*t.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  19. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    What we did see was bad enough, on all sides, IMO.
  20. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Well, I for one didn't think Tim's comments were so heinous. When he made them, I saw what he meant. And I certainly don't feel sorry for Ven; his decoy collection, his Makeover Look, his Fall Look and this one all prove to me that his reaction to criticism is a big "Fcuk you" where he either makes no effort (Makeover/Fall) or just defaults to his "signature" fabri/florigami crap (decoy collection/Print challenge).
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  21. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone thinks that Ven's designs/aesthetic are "crap".
    I like many of them - and would purchase some of the finished pieces, if I had the opportunity.

    I feel the same about individual items from several of the PR contestants, also.

    To each their own.
  22. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't speaking for "everyone". However, I do think that he designs for himself and that his range is very narrow. While some of his flori/fabrigami elements are beautiful in and of themselves, they are not always flattering, not even on 5'10", 100-lb runway models. Especially the rose. If he scaled it down to a subtle detail instead of having it explode all over a woman's chest or hips (LOOK AT WHAT I CAN DO WITH SHINY RED/WHITE/BLACK FABRIC!!!!!) I'd probably like it better. But that is just me.
  23. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    For me, it was interesting the first time. Nice the second time. But by this challenge, it was "oh, that again." He needs something other than that one trick. Think of how long some designers have been sending out three or four collections a year--does the world need to see that rose thing in forty or more pieces at three or four shows a year for thirty years?
  24. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Roses, fans, and asymmetrical zippers. Can you do anything else, Ven?
  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned previously that perhaps Ven now understands how "crappy" he made his client feel in the real woman challenge, but I haven't seen where anyone here called Ven's designs/aesthetic "crap." Just that it might have benefited him, particularly in the print challenge, to come up with something different for a change. Or, at the least, to utilize his "cultural" aesthetic in a more effective and unexpected way. All Tim tried to do was send Ven a strong message that in his judgement, Ven was on the wrong track with his look for the print challenge. From the beginning of this season, Ven's arrogance and his over-reliance on the flower motif, IMO, has detracted from his obvious talent.

    As far as the way Tim described Ven's initial work-in-progress, it may be offensive in connotation, but IMHO definitely NOT the worst insult or most tasteless comment ever made on the show. Tim is usually very kind and protective toward the designers. Whenever Tim does have something pointed to say to or about a designer, it seems to me he has specific reasons for being so blunt (very interesting re Nomad's anecdote about Tim's revelations during a recent book signing). If there was a contest re who has uttered the most and/ or the worst insulting comments on PR, I believe Michael Kors would be the winner by a long mile, Heidi in second, and many current and former contestants not far behind. ;)

    It is kind and considerate of you to be supportive of Ven, skatesindreams. ITA that Ven will likely have many people interested in purchasing garments from his collection. Some posts back, I indicated that I thought both Ven's and Elena's final collections make a bigger impact than those of the other designers. Unfortunately, both Ven and Elena also have kinda "crappy" personalities, or at least that is what they have both been showing for the most part during the PR10 season.
  26. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    {raises hand} I did. Post #420.
  27. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I don't have an issue with Tim being frank and uncomplimentary. I just thought the menstrual pad thing was crude, and not befitting Tim.
  28. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    {shrugs} He said what he thought. So what? Are people really so prudish and prissy that any mention of natural body functions is offensive? If so, then why aren't people bitching about Fabio's penis/vagina/fallopian tubes print?
  29. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    All of the comments seemed particularly inappropriate and abusive to me when the subject of the challenge reflected something so personal as the designer's religious/ethnic background.
    I would - and have been - just as bothered when the judges have made similar remarks to/about other designers.

    Exactly, cruisin!
  30. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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  31. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Your point taken, cruisin! Altho' Tim's comments didn't offend me, your take does in turn make me wonder what all the editing monkey cut out from Ven's footage this season (especially what else Tim witnessed that completely turned him off re Ven; perhaps Ven's attitude and remarks had a pile-on effect for Tim over the course of the season). ;)

    :lol: Okay, I missed that: "'signature' fabri/florigami crap." In the context in which you said that tho' do you mean you completely and totally find Ven's designs/aesthetic "crap"? I don't get that you mean that exactly, since you also qualified by saying: "... some of his flori/fabrigami elements are beautiful in and of themselves ..."

    ITA that Ven's design range seems "narrow," and he doesn't appear to be interested in stretching himself.


    ETA: (in response to cruisin' and skatesindreams)
    "Menstrual pad" was not the first analogy that came to mind for me, but then again as someone posted earlier, we are only seeing the designs on television and not up close and personal.

    Again, Tim's critique, IMO, is not the worst I've ever heard on PR. I truthfully felt very bad for Gunnar the way his effort was picked apart by the judges (altho' their design critiques were valid). I mainly felt bad for Gunnar because it was the pain of bullying he had experienced in childhood that inspired his sketch. Unfortunately, PR is a format which does not allow designers any time to perfect their ideas. Gunnar's print design and completed outfit was not good and that's too bad. I think Mondo empathized with Gunnar and felt that Ven should go over Gunnar. I can see why Gunnar was sent home, and I think he was hurt but he also realized that what he created in that challenge was not a great effort. Ven, OTOH, took everything so personal and as a result probably has learned very little and not grown at all from the experience of being on the show.

    But, the show is not over yet, so we shall see.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  32. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Not quite. What I think is crap about Ven's design/aesthetic is that he lets the fabri/florigami technique overwhelm whatever he makes. It's all about the garment, not the woman wearing the garment. To me, he's putting his technical skills on display and saying "Look at me and what I can do!" The human being wearing said design is basically irrelevant. She's just a walking hanger with a head. He's not using his skills to make women look/feel more beautiful. I don't think he even likes women all that much. His ideas would be fab if he used them and adapted them to showcase the woman. But he doesn't.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  33. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ ITA! I think you hit the nail on the head, Nomad. Or better yet, nailed it re Ven's "flori/fabrigami" obsession: ... he's putting his technical skills on display and saying "Look at me and what I can do!" ... He's not using his skills to make women look/feel more beautiful.

    ITA with your above take as well! I personally was not offended by Tim's comment. I think he simply meant that for the print challenge the shape and color of Ven's ubiquitous flower design had a resemblance to "a menstrual pad," in his estimation.

    On reflection tho' perhaps the "menstrual pad" comment could offend some for a complicated variety of reasons. IOW, it may not have been just the indirect reference to "bodily functions" that irked some. It might also have been that the analogy raises the specter of equating what naturally happens to women and young girls as they mature as being somehow disgusting or equivalent to something that is negative and displeasing. However, I give Tim the benefit of the doubt, in that it is impossible to know for certain whether he consciously makes or intends that kind of negative association, simply because Ven's flower design struck him the way it did.
  34. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that few designers consider that, much less achieve it.
  35. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely! Have you seen Marc Jacobs runway looks lately? Funky, but hardly flattering.
  36. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    My "bad". You "are" so totally "right".
  37. Bostonfan

    Bostonfan Well-Known Member

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    It's all about CONTEXT. Listen, sperm passing between a man to seek out a woman's egg can be a beautiful and life-affirming. But I'd be grossed out if I saw it represented on a garment. :p
  38. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ :lol: Exactly.

    Yes true, but I think some do, obviously not always successfully. One designer in particular that comes to mind is Johnny Weir. I just remember Johnny saying even before he had the opportunity to start doing some designing, that he aspired to "make people feel beautiful." :)

    Ven seems more interested in making himself feel justified in his arrogance. But okay, maybe he will take a step back and learn to acquire some humility before the season is over.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  39. Fergus

    Fergus Well-Known Member

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    "That could be his drag name: Origami Rose." :rofl:
  40. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    Auf wiedersehen, Origami Rose!