Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by haribobo, Apr 30, 2011.
Never say never.
What is the closest P&B have ever come to D&W or V&M in the last couple years. And how much older than both teams are they. Seriously I think they blew their golden shot of ever winning a World bronze, forget a gold.
You give too much importance to past results. The fact that Péchalat & Bourzat have never beaten Davis & White and Virtue & Moir in the past doesn't mean they won't beat them in the future. Péchalat & Bourzat improved so much this season and I can only expect more improvement from them.
Age doesn't matter.
I thought Joubert's LP in Moscow was one of the better LP he has delivered within the past 2 years or so. I didn't care for the program itself, but jump-wise he landed the 4t, both 3a and only stumpled out of one jump. He seemed satisfied with himself after the performance. It's still possible for him to skate well next year but the consistency just isn't there anymore.
There isnt even a remote chance P&B have more improvement ahead than D&W or V&M, let alone much more. Age doesnt matter? It does when you are talking about someone much better than you for years who is also much younger than you.
Well, I feel differently.
You REALLY don't like Natalie & Fabian do you ?!!!!.
Yes D/W & V/M are ahead of them now but I think that's been with A LOT OF HELP from the judges. I thought Natalie & Fabian were better than Meryl & Charlie in the short dance but the judges are making it clear that they now favour the North American couples now.
I love V/M & think they should have won the Gold medal. But for me D/W are turning ice dance into mini pairs skating.
But don't give up on Pechalat & Borzat yet, remember Del/Sch were the nearly couple for years then won the Euro's in 2007 & the World's in 2008 & dominated the Grand Prix series in 2008 & had it not been for Isabelle's shoulder injury & pregnancy would have gone on to challenge for an Olympic medal in Vancouver.
Korpi has been competing for so long and if she doesn't straightened her F/Lz by now, she never will. Imo time for her is running out. In one or two years, European senior ladies will be dominated by the Russian skaters..
If all of them retire, we are left with.....let see.... competition full of inconsistent skaters and LOL
It will be a battle of who fall the least!!
And Mirai will still manage to not win the whole thing.
Or who is the prettiest. I pick Korpi!
Wasn't the panel of judges primarily European?
Maybe the panels of judges just prefer clean execution more now? (Back in the late 1990 it was pretty clear that the panels of judges valued speed and edging in the compulsory dances more than exactly correct steps, so perhaps this is another shift.)
For me, the argument is not so much that P/B won't improve, but that V/M and D/W will also improve. Essentially P/B's improvement is a little too late at this point - unlike DelSchoes, the younger teams didn't blow past them and there are no retirements at the top (remember, Delschoes won Worlds after the WG and WS teams retired and the WB fell, the European champions were absent etc).
If V/M and D/W are past them with a lot of help from the judges, as PashaFan asserts, then why would the judges stop supporting them in the next few seasons? Nah. I fully expect P/B to win bronze at home and retire (a la Winkler/Lhose). The next generation is already nipping at their heels and in some cases are completely leading the pack.
I totally agree. I also think they will win bronze at home and retire.
I'm a huge P/B fan and that fall was devastating. Behind V/M they are my faves right now and this is not an insult to them and I don't know how to say it without it sounding that way but they just don't have that extra something to compete for gold (maybe in a different time) and there's just no way they can get it . They give everything they have and they are extremely talented but it's a case of what can you do? D/W, V/M just have 'IT' in every fiber of their being and through no fault of their own is there anything P/B can do about it.
I guess this is my interpretation - I feel that P&B have "it" just as much as D&W, and V&M. I think it's just that P&B are, by nature, introverted - which yes, intellectual and introverted WAS once an acceptable form of expression, and Torvill & Dean and Anissina & Peizerat are both excellent examples of this kind of expression.
That's not in vogue now.
Zueva happens to have four extroverts in Davis, White, Virtue, and Moir, and she also happens to be very, very good at getting her teams to emote and fill the arenas to the bleachers - I'm not a fan of hers at all, but I definitely respect her abilities in that department.
This is just my opinion, but I really feel that P&B would be walloping D&W under 6.0, and probably jostling positions with V&M, but that's just me.
Anissina was an introvert? Really? T/D I can buy, but A/P never really struck me like that. I'd argue that Tessa and Scott are more introverted than they are.
I think what hurt Pechelat/Bourzat in the past was that they were just wierd. I'm sorry - but outside their 07/08 Flamenco OD, I've never really liked anything they did (hated their FDs three years running). In fact, I think this season was a definite shifting of their natures into something more palatable. Both Doctor Zhivago and Chaplin have enough of their earlier personalities to still appeal to those that enjoyed them before while getting them a broader fanbase.
That said, the fall was devastating (and I really do think the Shibs were overmarked in the SD, so I don't know if they deserved to be knocked off the podium) to this nonfan. It's clear that they worked so hard this year - ditching an SD to one they could excel at. We often think of this season as long, but they did two senior Bs (Nebelhorn and Finlandia), the GP circuit, Nationals (which they obviously didn't have to do), Euros and then Worlds, and it's clear that their goal was to be on the podium in Tokyo (Moscow). The fact is, regardless of what happened in Moscow, this was their most successful season competition-wise, and I think they can take that knowledge with them next season.
I guess what frustrates me (and always have) is that when I'm watching ice dance I can tell exactly what marks & placing is about to come up before it has.
I really think that despite the fall & whether you liked Natalie & Fabian's choreography or not, that they were worthy of a medal & if D/W or V/M had a fall they still would have been in the top two.
The bronze medal winners were no match technically for the French. They are still very much junior-senior for me.
What would happen if Natalie & Fabian went to the same coaches as the top three?.
Now that would be interesting !.
I've never been a fan of the way Zhulin has coached P/B. She is a star with so much personality yet he keeps plugging away with the same kind of routines.
I would like to see them just let go & sell it. Maybe skating to something like Moulin Rouge or a pop medley.
They really have nothing to lose now. They could test them in the Grand Prix Series.
I'm wondering where people are getting the idea that Davis & White will retire because I expect them to continue until Sochi. At least I hope so. I hope Virtue and Moir continue too. Also, Mao stated last year that she wanted to continue through the 2014 Olympics.
It's not like P/B lost by a ton of points to the Shibs...only 1/4 of a point.
P/B had a lead of over the Shibs after the short by over four points and lost it with a two point deduction for two falls plus numerous other deductions in other areas. If D/W or V/M had fallen it would have been a changing of medal color because the points were so close, but to fall off the podium they would have needed a 20 point deduction. P/B couldn't afford errors with only a four point lead.
I recall you predicting Ando would never challenge for a World Title again and that at best would be an outside shot for the podium. Her performances at 4CC and Japanese Nationals this year were exactly what was missing from the Olympics last year. Ando was clearly on track to peak for a Worlds that was supposed to have taken place in March and yet she was able to maintain her form in a superior manner than the rest of the skaters. Ando's consistency this year was nearly flawless in the long program and I am glad she ended the season with recapturing her World title.
Poor Miki Ando, not only does she have a creepy older coach/boyfriend but she has a crazy stalker fan in Lainerb.
Pashafan I actually do like Pechalat & Bourzat alot and was very dissapointed when they fell and gave away a certain medal this year. I just cant see them ever overtaking teams like V&M or D&W at this point though. Those teams were already over them at their debut Worlds 4 years ago, are much younger, and P&B even with their recent improvements have made no inroads on either since, except for D/W briefly in the 07-08 season but that seems an eternity ago now. I do agree D&W are overmarked on PCS though. I dont think they in anyway merit the highest PCS but that is just me. Technically they are so much stronger than P&B though I couldnt see P&B ever beating them even with PCS marked very differently. And V&M are just superior all the way around.
I do hope they can atleast hold off the younger couples next year and medal at home. That would be a great way to end (likely) their careers.
Sorry to interrupt this lovely discussion but I think haribobo was asking about skaters who are actually retiring after this season.
So far the only ones who are 100% confirmed are:
Sinead Kerr/John Kerr
Federica Faiella/Massimo Scali
Alissa Czisny has now said she will stay at least one more season.
Daisuke Takahashi said he's going to continue skating until Sochi.
If anybody hears of any other confirmed retirements, please post here.
D/W skated a weak SD, with a mistake on the twizzles.
They weren't marked down for it, though, and in general their SD marks seemed based on reputation alone.
I'd definitely have them outside the top 3 in the SD.
No complaints about the FD result, though. They were clearly top of the field. My GOE and PCS marks would be way lower but I'd definitely have them first.
(PashaFan talked about P/B being better in the SD hence my comments)
Haha yeah...it will be beauty peagent on ice...
You are saying that because you know you were wrong about Miki. Grow up.
The following skaters would probably be closest to retirement, but possibly not. Have any stated their plans??? I added my guesses based on statements in other threads over the past few months-
1. Joubert - I think will retire after '12 Worlds?
2. Ando - ?
3. Kostner - ?
4. Flatt - Supposedly skating no GP next year, but will skate at US Nats?
5. Verner - ?
6. Pang / Tong - taking '11 - '12 season off and continuing -or- retiring?
7. Zhang / Zhang - injured but returning?
8. Bradley - retiring
9. Kim - continuing, but not skating the GP next year a la Kwan? retiring soon?
10. Abbott - committed to '11 - '12 season, but retiring after?
11. Evora / Ladwig - He will be 31 next year. Any word on their plans [haven't seen them mentioned]
Thanks for any info on them and anyone else...
Well to be honest, Miki both SP+LP are just plain bad. SP was awful, and lets be honest, no skater will be able to pull of Cleopatra theme program. Even if you are Michelle or Yuna. If her jumps are as sharp as this year with her Samson Deliah SP and Carmen LP. she can fight for the bronze at least.
Miki has stated "with confidence" that she'd skate until Sochi.
I really liked Miki's short programme this year !. I thought Yuna's SP & LP were below par. Nothing special unlike last year.
I can't believe the negativity towards Miki. I've been a fan of hers since the 2003 junior world's & think despite her nerves she has had a wonderful career.
I really hope she continues.
If you want bland watch Rachel Flatt. She has always skated through not to her music & like Meryl Davis looks completely bored & fed up.
Evora/Ladwig stated (around 4CCs IIRC) that they plan to compete next season. I believe they're taking it year by year.
First official post Worlds split: Coughlin and Yankowskas
That's a shock. I think she is a star. Kinda reminds me of Julia Obertas. I hope she finds a worthy partner.
They're both supposed to continue skating though (well John isn't sure yet but he's rumoured to partner with Denney).
What on earth is wrong with weird?!
I agree re: A/P though. No way were they "introvert" ... where on earth did anyone get that idea from?! And to be honest, I don't really class D/W or V/M as being particularly "extrovert." They are good performers, yes, but that's different. Maybe Charlie is...maybe. When I think extrovert I think of those who really stamp their own personality on a programme, whatever that programme may be... for example, ladies like Babsi F-P, Navka, Grishuk. I don't think of D/W or V/M in those terms... not that that's a bad thing. Just my two cents.
well, if being extrovert means being like Fusar-Poli and Navka, I'm all for introvert skaters
^To be fair, so am I... I didn't say it was always a good thing.
continues until Sochi if his health permits.
I am not sure if I understand. Do you think Meryl always looks bored and fed up?
Oh - be still my heart! Where did you find this information. I am so excited for her (and me).
^It was in the worlds threads. She'd told people before worlds apparently, but asked it to be kept secret until the competition was over.
Nothing really wrong with it, but wierd means harder to wrap your mind around, easier to dismiss, harder to like/love/enjoy.
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