Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bardtoob, Dec 10, 2012.

Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Poll closed Jan 14, 2013.
  1. Yes

    103 vote(s)
    76.3%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    8.1%
  3. Undecided. See me after Nationals.

    21 vote(s)
    15.6%
  1. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts Member

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    I am a Patrick uber and am struggling with his choice to go forward w/no technical coach. I agree with you that his mistakes are lapses in focus and I also agree that a sports pyschologist is a good idea. He gets nervous and I think he needs help with that. He's the best there has ever been. Truly a phenom. Nobody even comes close to his overall ability. This is my opinion. However, I think that he needs a technical coach to keep him grounded and focused on the elements. Jumps can be mastered but they also need to be maintained. Kurt Browning and Tracy Wilson are pretty tight with him and I think they will try to convince him, not to ditch Kathy, but to add a technical coach. Kurt mentioned recently in a podcast that he cannot comment too much on Patrick because they are such good friends.....but knowing Kurt, he tells Patrick what he thinks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Everybody gets nervous, so I'm sure Patrick is no exception. I think Patrick is definitely a phenom, not unlike the phenom, Yuzuru Hanyu, especially in terms of being precocious skaters as teenagers ... I believe Patrick started winning on the senior circuit at the age of 16. Patrick may have some of the finest blade work there has ever been in figure skating, but overall, I personally don't count him as the best male figure skater ever, not even the best male skater from Canada ever. I'd give that distinction to Toller Cranston, Kurt Browning, Brian Orser, then Patrick Chan, Jeffrey Buttle, Elvis Stojko, and Shawn Sawyer.

    Patrick can't take a technical coach out onto the ice with him. :p Some of his less than clean performances probably have more at this point to do with Patrick's usual easing into the season, and also getting over the hangover of fawning judges' scoring that came abruptly to an end in Nice. Patrick may need someone to discuss overall program strategy and training approach with him more than the technical aspects of jumping, because I think he does have someone with technical expertise working with him already. It shouldn't be seen as such a huge calamity that Patrick decided to focus on his artistry, and that he feels comfortable with Kathy Johnson as his primary coach. I think she's being made into such a scapegoat.

    Seriously, it might help Patrick if his fans would lay-off a bit and allow him to chart his own course, make his own mistakes, and decide on what additional adjustments he wants to make after this season. Just because Patrick was not on the top of the podium at GPF doesn't mean he's completely out of favor with the judges. I think it's more that the judges' marks for Patrick have come a bit down to earth when he makes errors, plus there are other competitors who are also talented, who are putting in the work, and who are hungry to win.
     
  3. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts Member

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    ^I respect your opinion. I am happy he is adding to his repertoire by bettering his artistry :) I certainly agree that this is a different season for him in terms of not outscoring his competitors this year. He himself has raised the bar and that has to put a lot of pressure on him. It's true that he still works with Eddie Shipstad (sp?). Btw, I love Hanyu too :) Actually, I love most of the skaters, I just LOVE LOVE Patrick. I have such a personal passion for the SS and his are just the best in my opinion :) Thank you so much for your comments:)
     
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  4. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I think Patrick needs a capable coach to also monitor his mental progress, or Kathy Johnson should learn how to do that. It irked me a bit when after SC Patrick gave that interview saying Kathy and him never actually sat down and talk about what the first competition of the season means or something to that extend. Really showed Kathy Johnsons inexperience in that department. As for technical coach, I think Patrick is fine right now.
     
  5. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    And thanks for your response, kittysk8ts! I agree that Patrick raised the bar in men's skating with his SS and his mastery of quads. I give him lots of credit for that. The times Patrick skated lights out, he certainly deserved huge scores. I think the judges simply went a bit overboard the times Patrick didn't skate well, which wasn't helpful for Patrick either on those occasions.

    Similarly, I don't think it's at all helpful for Hanyu when the judges over-mark him because they are mesmerized by his effortless jumps in his excellent sp. I think Hanyu deserved very good tech scores for his sp this season when he skated cleanly, but I still think Hanyu's PCS don't deserve to be off the charts and he was also over-scored for mistakes in his fp when he ran out of gas during his GP events.

    I understand how it feels to love a skater whose skating means a lot to you, and to enjoy many skaters and want to see them all do well, but especially the ones you love the most. :)
     
  6. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Patrick has said in an interview that Kathy Johnson is a laid-back person. Even more laid-back than Patrick, he said. How can anyone change their personality just because the job they do required it?!
     
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  7. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how being laid back and well prepare your students mentally interfere with one another...
     
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  8. london_calling

    london_calling New Member

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    Doesn't he have enough experience to know what the first competition means? Seems strange that at the point he's at, he would need a coach to tell him those sorts of things.
     
  9. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I honestly haven't noticed any change this season in how the judges have been scoring Patrick on the program components except that maybe he got even higher PC marks than last season when he skated well? I am thinking of Cup of Russia and his 92.67 points there. And when did he ever score 90+ in the past for a free skate with a fall on the quad, a zayaking and no 4/3 jump combination, maybe never? What only has changed IMO is that some of Chan's rivals have caught up with him in terms of technical difficulty and he doesn't have much room for error anymore when they skate well, that's why he is losing.

    I was definitely impressed with how Daisuke jumped from a PC score of 83 in the free skate at NHK to a PCS of 90 at the GPF in a matter of just two weeks, and he didn't even skate cleanly. That's what I call tremendous progress and I'm guessing he has Morozov to thank for it.:D

    Really? I must have missed that because I only remember Chan being constantly bashed by some whether he made mistakes and won or skated lights out and won.

    I totally agree with you but easier said than done.;)


    I thought that preparing the athletes mentally for every competition would be part of the job description of any coach, no matter how experienced the athletes are and whether it's an individual sport or a team sport. But I am not a coach myself, so I could be all wrong in my assumption.
     
  10. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    I think everyone - haters and ubers alike - needs to take a chill pill. If he's still got major issues at Worlds, well, maybe then it's time to panic.
     
  11. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Active Member

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    To be honest, I don't think either Chan nor Takahashi deserved the PCs they got in the FS, but I think there's another explanation for that situation, and that explanation is called Hanyu. He skated before them, and for some absurd reason, the judges felt he had to score better in PCs than Fernandez and Kozuka (Do. Not. Even. Get. Me. Started. On. That. One). Those two got pretty high marks already (although justifyably so for the most part, imo) so they gave Hanyu a whooping 85+ in components

    By doing so, the judges essentially painted themselves in a corner because there was no way they could give Chan, Zayak and fall or no Zayak and fall, or Takahashi similar PCs to Hanyu, especially given the fact that he forgot his program at home that day, probably in an attempt to conserve enough energy to finish without a couple of stupid falls (and anyway, as much as I adore Hanyu and I think he has huge charisma anda clear ability to project, he just doesn't have the level of interpretation of the other two). Hence the high scores, although relatively to the others, they are pretty fair. The only component where Hanyu deserved more than Chan and, arguably, Takahashi was performance (but then Fernandez P/E should have gotten even higher so.....). And to be honest, I think the 5-points difference with Hanyu is still pretty low considering Chan has a much better structured program and Takahashi was well above his former performances and also has a better program concept anyway *shrug*

    From the moment the skater has good enough results to put him on the map, then there are always going to be bashers. I wouldn't worry too much about that if I were you ;)

    As for the reason of the whole thread..... seriously, can't we just wait until the end of the season before starting to give him advice on what he should/ shouldn't do? He's just changed a major part of his working structure, he's experimenting with his skating, these things take time to adjust to.

    And it's not as if he was mistake-free last season or if he hadn't zayaked himself before, so I really don't see that much of a difference anyway - new coach or not :lol:
     
  12. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    a) He discussed at Skate Canada his lack of mental preparation - he said that he and Johnson didn't talk about it until moments before he stepped out on the ice.

    b) He's popped several jumps this season, which is a mistake he doesn't often make. He's also been called on UR'ing - something he doesn't doo often either. He's lost combo points in every competition this season.

    I dunno - there's something about the mistakes he's making this season that do have me worried.
     
  13. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Lest we forget, he didn't choose not to have a tech coach. Krall resigned as she wasn't happy with a lesser role in coaching Patrick. I think her resignation after Worlds 2012 was not expected. Isn't Eddie Shipstaed qualified as tech coach? I am sure Patrick and family will have a clearer picture of what needs to be done after this season. I will take Kurt's advice to chill out for now. :)

    Just wondering whether Patrick will return to train in Canada after this season? Part of the reason why he ended up in CS was training the quads with Krall so now that he's no longer with Krall, he may have more reasons to return to Canada. I am sure there are many tech coaches in Canada too. Not Orser .... I think he's too busy with his many other talented students.
     
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Krall and Chan said that under Krall, every moment of his day was planned. It's understandable that he'd eventually chafe under that and become hugely bored. A bored Chan is one who could walk away from the sport and go become an investment banker or something.

    From the outside it looks like he's gone to another extreme, but without knowing what his training schedule is, it's hard to say how radical his choice is.

    He did say that Johnson taught him to use his core differently and that this improved his jumps, even before she became his primary coach.

    That's a pretty low bar :p

    Cleaning up technique gives skaters more options, though.
     
  15. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    before the LP - not the first time he stepped out on the competition ice.
     
  16. Feb

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    I don’t think Takahashi’s program, interpretation and transitions were better than Hanyu’s at GPF FS. I enjoyed Blues for Klook, but this season Takahashi has an off Morozovy FS, not up to his usual standard. Hanyu’s program is also not as good as his last season’s program, but a little better than Takahashi’s imo. Also Hanyu skated almost lights out except that 2S, and he was faster than everyone else except Chan, including Takahashi. I think Hanyu deserved the PCS he got. I don’t think Takahashi’s PCS deserved to be 5 points higher than Hanyu. If Takahashi got 88 I can understand, but 90 with that many errors I don’t think so. Add to the fact that Takahashi got high GOE’s for his jump mistakes and underrotation jumps not called, I think the scores are too high for Takahashi’s performance.

    Chan had the best speed and the best music, but I don’t think his interpretation improved and it’s not better than everyone else. He deserved highest PCS for his SS, TR and CH, but his PE and IN marks shouldn’t be that high imo. Kozuka made errors and had a sleep-inducing program. I like his SP but his FS is sleep-inducing. I think 83 PCS is correct but should not be higher.

    Fernandez’s PCS is most inflated imo. He had the worst skating skills in the GPF 6 skaters, he was slow and labored even in the SP and had no flow. I see even Machida had better skating skills than Fernandez, and Chan and the other 3 Japanese are levels above him in SS. I don’t think the judges should give Fernandez 83, same mark as Kozuka. Imo Fernandez is a 7's level skater not the 8's. However, I also understand this is a sports and jumps are most important. I’m ok if Fernandez’s PCS was boosted by his quads at GPF, but if he doesn’t bring the quads at next event, then I see his PCS going down to where it should be.
     
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I assume that Chan's goal is to win the gold in 2014, at the Olympics, so I don't think it is THAT important to him to win the 2013 worlds. That would take some pressure off him this year, and allow him the time to work on his weaknesses, which are only a few.
     
  18. Feb

    Feb Member

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    Ditto. Plus I think Chan&#8217;s aware of his weaknesses, the inconsistency of his 3A and his interpretation. He&#8217;s working on them now, and I see a big chance for him to win the gold at Olympics.
     
  19. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    But another part of the reason was that training at high altitude had given Patrick great advantages at competitions last season.
     
  20. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

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    Completely agree
     
  21. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Why would Chan move to Canada when his coaches, Johnson and Shipstead, are in Colorado Springs? He didn't default to them because Krall fired him and it would have benn disruptive to move: Krall fired him because he chose someone else to lead his coaching team.
     
  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Really? Maybe you missed the widespread praise then because a) your antennae is only on the lookout for criticism; and b) because it's been so long since PChid has skated lights out. :p

    There were definitely occasions when fans of all stripes were bending over backwards to praise Patrick (chiefly his amazing Canadian Nationals skates, and Worlds 2011).
     
  23. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Which just shows how subjective interpretation is. lol

    Chan fell 8 times at the GP + GPF of 2010, six times in 2011 and only two times in 2012, which is pretty reasonable considering that other skaters fell more often than him. But yeah, popping can be more costly than falling.

    I have to wonder what I would be feeling like if I were Patrick and most of the people around me disapproved of my choices and decisions, depressed, frustrated, insecure, all of these?

    When Patrick skates lights out, he certainly deserves huge scores such as 187 points at 2011 Worlds? But when he makes a couple of mistakes (not on the big jumps though) and scores 176, he is certainly overscored although he loses 11 points. And when he skates poorly and scores 156 points, he is overmarked again although he loses 20 more points. lol

    :lol: That must be it.;)
     
  24. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    And someone else's hobby is to post half a page of comments...:p

    I WOULD wiggle my middle finger. :D

    I thought he originally moved to CS from Laws because of Krall.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  25. naan

    naan New Member

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    :( :scream: :fragile: :wuzrobbed
     
  26. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I am thinking that perhaps he is "struggling" a bit more than usual because not only is he concentrating more on his artistry BUT he's also doing two new programs. That's something new for him along with the other changes in his life so I'm cutting him slack. I'm also thinking things will work out fine. Guess I don't need to take my chill pill yet :D
     
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Yes and no. He was training in both places, with Krall as a consultant, until he decided he preferred the CS environment, with lots of other skaters his own age around.

    However, why would he move to Canada, when he's made his choice of a primary coach, and she's in CS?
     
  28. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    . . . You would feel like most adolescent males at some point in the lives.
     
  29. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I agree with this. To be honest, it is good he is going through this phase before Sochi. It is a necessary growing pain as he become more self aware as a performer as he grew more artistically sensitive evolving from a technician to fully realize his artistry. People don't understand once you a become more artistically aware and emotional available, as a performer, it is natural to feel ever more vulnerable than ever before. How can you not be, if you are trying to skate with your heart and shows you cares beyond scoring. He is just going through that early stage of growing pain and will deal it in his own time I am sure of it. Regardless of his ranking this season against the ascension of Japanese men particularly Hanyu, I do think Patrick is making steady positive progress into a well rounded skater - one of the best ever and I am optimistic about worlds. He has better programs than the Japanese guys, he just need to get his act together.
     
  30. Judge Dred

    Judge Dred Member

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    His form has been erratic this season. Time to bring back Krall