Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bardtoob, Dec 10, 2012.

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Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Poll closed Jan 14, 2013.
  1. Yes

    103 vote(s)
    76.3%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    8.1%
  3. Undecided. See me after Nationals.

    21 vote(s)
    15.6%
  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Wow, there was a wonderful Viktor Petrenko before Galina Z and her daughter, Nina entered the picture! Thanks for that revelation. For goodness sake! :duh: Don't tell me, heck, was that the reason Petrenko's choreo and technique slowly began to suffer?!!! Aaargh ... sending out a "hint, hint" to the unmentionable one ... :yikes:


    You seem to be making a brilliant point here. ITA! ;)


    :rofl: :fan:



    Come on, at this point, of course Plush is his own coach, very similar to Roger Federer! Mishin is more now like the attendants that used to come on stage at the height of James Brown's frenzied but masterful performances, and mop JB's brow and cover him with his kingly robe, which of course was all a strategically planned dramatic ploy to further entice the audience. The King would suddenly throw off the robe, push aside the attendants, grab the microphone and keep on singing and dancing. :lol: :p
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  2. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    My post was to correct Vash01's comment that it was Patrick who decided to leave Krall. I think Patrick was too naive to think that Krall would be satisfied with the direction the coaching arrangement was heading, but from all accounts Patrick didn't leave Krall.
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Fair enough. So Patrick didn't "leave" Krall, and he was "too naive" to realize that Krall would not accept his desire for a coaching "rearrangement." Amounts to a mutual parting then in my mind. :)

    And of course, the parting of ways really had nothing to do with Krall "not being happy" with Patrick's desire to "focus more on artistry," as you originally implied in your post #18.
  4. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    I don't know what's the problem you have with my posts, I wasn't defending Patrick nor did I disagree with proustable and sk8ingcoach's posts.
  5. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Sure, losing a couple of competitions, even losing the worlds, is not life and death situation.;)

    Well, I think Johnson is maybe obnoxious but definitely is not stupid. She is too smart. She has a great people skills.:p She, a dance instructor who doesn't even know how to skate herself (well, her daughter has skated, if that counts...;)) could gradually move in closer to the ice and the skaters and their moms, could push Krall away further and further. Finally, tookover the whole coach thing. What a clever lady she is!:yikes:

    The strange thing is this soul and chi talking couldn't help Patrick's nerves.;) He has had "stage fright" and is losing confidence he owned so firmly last year.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  6. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Hmmm, but then you seem to be implying that Chan is a pushover and is easy to manipulate. Or, at the least that Kathy Johnson is an "obnoxious, ambitious dance instructor" who has plotted and planned in skating rinks over the years to convince skaters and their moms that she deserves to be a primary coach, and she finally scored a coup with Patrick Chan. How do you know that it wasn't Patrick himself who convinced Kathy to become his primary coach?

    I can't wait for the next installment in the scarily entertaining and ever evolving soap opera/ comedy/ horror flick/ melodrama on and off ice that has become The Patrick Chan Story, as written and created by overwrought fans, over-pumped fed, over-scoring judges, and over-excited sports writers.


    ETA:

    :lol: OMG, "stage fright!" Surely you are kidding! Patrick could have fooled me. He doesn't seem scared at all when he takes the ice. BTW, I think "soul and chi talking" is actually designed to help calm our nerves and access our inner beings, which are too f*ing cool and objective to be afraid of anything.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  7. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I think I've read accounts where Patrick has owned up to being nervous in a comp but it's usually after the fact.
  8. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :confused:
    Ah... talking about 'thy own posts'? :D
  9. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Look at how excited Patrick's normal detractors are! Jumping ups and downs. That's another indicator that Patrick's decision was wrong.:shuffle:
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  10. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    I was in Pinzolo this summer and saw the training sessions of Mishin for couple of weeks, I can assure you that Plushenko was training with Arthur, Liza and the 10 years olds on Mishin team and was following the same warm up and instructions of the coach, then in the main training Mishin was side by side with him correcting, shouting, talking all the time, every few mins they had a discussion with Kenji and so on, I expect by this time Plushenko can change his schedule and take a day off if he feels like it but in the training Mishin was Mishin. But in Pinzolo he had the same schedule like all.
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  11. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Ha, ha, thanks for setting my JB perceptions re Plushenko straight, senorita! Ah, but do we know what Mishin was shouting about exactly? ;) Mishin to me seems to be an excellent technical coach with very little understanding of artistry. I also think that Plush knows his body so well that he’s fully aware of what he’s capable of doing and how to do it at this point. OTOH, I'm sure it is important and necessary for Plush to have Mishin by his side supporting, admonishing and encouraging him about stuff he’s fully aware of. You can't beat having another set of eyes watching from someone who has trained you from a very young age. Speaking of which, brings us back to the topic at hand. ;)

    Not really. And, it's "thine own," btw. :) I'm talking about posts from overwrought and over-protective PC fans in this and other threads, but no need to name names. We all know who we are. ;) And looking back on this thread, I think it is obvious there is an outcry among Chan fans that Kathy Johnson is at worse leading "poor, easy to manipulate" Chan astray, and at best she is not the right primary coach for him. All well and good re thinking KJ may not be the best primary coach for Chan, but I don't think that can be proven by Chan's performances so far this season, since he's started seasons under Krall making similar technical errors.

    Moreover, the claims that Krall was "not happy" about Chan wanting to "focus more on artistry," and the negative insinuations that Kathy Johnson is "a clever, obnoxious lady" who "pushed Krall further and further away" from Chan are seriously OTT and befitting a soap opera script, IMHO. I won't even go into the remarks of the poster in another thread who claims to be close to Chan's parents, and who was obsessing over matters involving Chan's personal life, which are none of that poster's or anyone else's business.

    And I find the reference to Patrick having "stage fright," a bit OTT too. Every athlete experiences nerves or they aren't "normal." The key is in learning how to manage one's nerves and still perform to one's best level. Actual "stage fright" or "performance anxiety" can be a more serious condition which if Patrick actually had a severe case of it, he'd be in serious trouble. He wouldn't have been able to make it through warm-ups, much less entire performances! According to Wiki: "Stage fright has numerous manifestations: fluttering or pounding heart, tremor in the hands and legs, sweaty hands, diarrhea, facial nerve tics, dry mouth, and erectile dysfunction." :eek:
  12. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about it, and I don't think Patrick realizes that the stall in his artistic development came from the choice to keep the Phantom of the Opera LP for two years. Few realize it because the word "opera" is in the title, but the musical theater version of Phantom of the Opera lacks depth, both musically and emotionally, that is required to inspire artistic depth.
  13. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I think at this stage it maybe wouldn't hurt if he had a specialised technical coach at least looking him over. But isn't he actually working with someone like that as well? I thought that was mentioned elsewhere. At any rate, Chan is an adult, he's got his big-boy panties on, and now it's time for him to sink or swim by making his own decisions and mistakes. It's part of growing up. *shrugs*

    It certainly hasn't damaged his edges or his movement at any rate, he's still got those stunning deep edges and nice lines.

    Although I'm :lol: at the people who think that Christy Krall didn't like a "focus on artistry"? Well shoot, can someone please explain to me what happened to Josh Farris when he went with her and Damon Allen? Cos last time I checked, he's more artistic with Krall than he ever was with Zakrasjek.
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think at this stage of the season, it's promising that his 3axel is coming off nicely and he hit both of them at GPF (with huge GOEs to boot). His quads have always been on and off, so hitting 2 out of 3 mid-season is not bad at all.

    He is learning new programs and we all know everything he does is so difficult. It will just take some time for everything to gel. He isn't winning not because he has problems, but because others are closing the PCS gap with technical goodies. In any event, I don't think Canada needs another defending men's champion heading into the Olympics...
  15. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

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    It seems to me that although he could use some help on the technical side, the majority of his problem is not with know-how, but in confidence. I almost think he needs someone like Kurt Browning who can help him with his nerves, honour his commitment to exploring the artistic side, and call him out when he's getting lax with his technique. Patrick seems to have struggled with finding the right coaching mix ever since his coach, Mr. Colson, passed away. Almost a little lost. Maybe he needs someone like a Mr. Colson to be his advisor to find the right situations that make sense for him.
  16. Corianna

    Corianna Active Member

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    Kurt's advice - (on one of the podcasts) was that Patrick's fans should take a pill, and let him experiment this season. He said he believes that if his current path doesn't work by the end of the season, Patrick will do figure out what is needed, and take the right steps. It may be hard on out nerves, but perhaps we should go along.
  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Kurt's juvenile comments continue to irritate me.
  18. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Kurt. I have already taken a pill to calm my nerves and anxiety.:lol:
  19. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    Don't most skaters who leave Zakrasjek improve their artistry?
  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Or at the least, in order to further develop their artistry. That's why I think Ryan Bradley would have fared better had he left Tom Z at age 17 or so when RB was evincing some elegance and potential artistry. Ryan stuck with Tom Z throughout his career and never developed stretch and grace nor ever realized his fullest potential presentation-wise. Jeremy Abbott had loads of artistry, but it was in his genes already, and he soared higher artistically when he left Tom Z. Brandon Mroz seems to be lost in the wilderness; even his jumps are no longer working for him. Certainly, Max Aaron might be able to take another step toward improving his presentation, if he at the least got some dance training/coaching, but I guess Kathy Johnson is too busy working with Patrick. ;)

    IMO, Kurt makes some sense, and he's certainly witty, as usual. I really don't see Patrick as lacking "confidence" necessarily. I think the ISU judges really messed with Patrick's head tho' with all those "high scores" when he made mistakes. It makes for a bit of confusion in terms of figuring out what you need to work on if even your "not so best" is considered gold medal worthy to an ad nauseum degree and to the point of audience boos (not so much against Patrick, but against the judges).


    Ha, ha! Very "clever" perception, Eyre. :p Although I'm not "jumping ups and downs," indeed I am glad for Patrick's sake and the sport's sake that the judges are not over-scoring him unduly. It provides Patrick with the opportunity to know where he stands, and to bring it when it counts. While I don't “normally” tend to root for Patrick, I’m not averse to pulling for him when he skates well. Sure he’s not one of my favorite skaters, but I've been more a detractor of some of the marks he's received than I have been of him personally.

    The past over-marking of Chan has come home to roost in the sense that some of Chan's fans (some of whom have always seemed nervous, over-protective and never satisfied) now seem to be "tearing their hair out" because Chan is no longer routinely winning with mistakes. Dai stepped it up in his sp at GPF, but Chan and Dai were somewhat on a par in their fps. Although I feel Dai is still more masterful presentation-wise, Chan has better SS overall, and definitely kudos to Chan for focusing more on artistry this season. IMO, Fernandez still needs to improve his artistry and consistency, and Hanyu is a precocious young skater who should be allowed more time to fully develop. But that probably won’t happen because the sport rewards effortless looking quads and what appears to be good artistry, even if said artistry is still immature and not fully realized in the Little Prince.

    Ultimately, I agree with Kurt that all is not lost. Why not relax and enjoy the journey, Chan fans, instead of harping all the time on his every decision and every loss? Of course detractors, "normal" or otherwise have harped on Patrick's overly high-scoring wins when he hasn't skated well. But when Patrick has skated out of this world, there has been praise and admiration expressed for him and his skating across the board. :)
  21. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts New Member

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    I am a Patrick uber and am struggling with his choice to go forward w/no technical coach. I agree with you that his mistakes are lapses in focus and I also agree that a sports pyschologist is a good idea. He gets nervous and I think he needs help with that. He's the best there has ever been. Truly a phenom. Nobody even comes close to his overall ability. This is my opinion. However, I think that he needs a technical coach to keep him grounded and focused on the elements. Jumps can be mastered but they also need to be maintained. Kurt Browning and Tracy Wilson are pretty tight with him and I think they will try to convince him, not to ditch Kathy, but to add a technical coach. Kurt mentioned recently in a podcast that he cannot comment too much on Patrick because they are such good friends.....but knowing Kurt, he tells Patrick what he thinks.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Everybody gets nervous, so I'm sure Patrick is no exception. I think Patrick is definitely a phenom, not unlike the phenom, Yuzuru Hanyu, especially in terms of being precocious skaters as teenagers ... I believe Patrick started winning on the senior circuit at the age of 16. Patrick may have some of the finest blade work there has ever been in figure skating, but overall, I personally don't count him as the best male figure skater ever, not even the best male skater from Canada ever. I'd give that distinction to Toller Cranston, Kurt Browning, Brian Orser, then Patrick Chan, Jeffrey Buttle, Elvis Stojko, and Shawn Sawyer.

    Patrick can't take a technical coach out onto the ice with him. :p Some of his less than clean performances probably have more at this point to do with Patrick's usual easing into the season, and also getting over the hangover of fawning judges' scoring that came abruptly to an end in Nice. Patrick may need someone to discuss overall program strategy and training approach with him more than the technical aspects of jumping, because I think he does have someone with technical expertise working with him already. It shouldn't be seen as such a huge calamity that Patrick decided to focus on his artistry, and that he feels comfortable with Kathy Johnson as his primary coach. I think she's being made into such a scapegoat.

    Seriously, it might help Patrick if his fans would lay-off a bit and allow him to chart his own course, make his own mistakes, and decide on what additional adjustments he wants to make after this season. Just because Patrick was not on the top of the podium at GPF doesn't mean he's completely out of favor with the judges. I think it's more that the judges' marks for Patrick have come a bit down to earth when he makes errors, plus there are other competitors who are also talented, who are putting in the work, and who are hungry to win.
  23. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts New Member

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    ^I respect your opinion. I am happy he is adding to his repertoire by bettering his artistry :) I certainly agree that this is a different season for him in terms of not outscoring his competitors this year. He himself has raised the bar and that has to put a lot of pressure on him. It's true that he still works with Eddie Shipstad (sp?). Btw, I love Hanyu too :) Actually, I love most of the skaters, I just LOVE LOVE Patrick. I have such a personal passion for the SS and his are just the best in my opinion :) Thank you so much for your comments:)
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  24. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I think Patrick needs a capable coach to also monitor his mental progress, or Kathy Johnson should learn how to do that. It irked me a bit when after SC Patrick gave that interview saying Kathy and him never actually sat down and talk about what the first competition of the season means or something to that extend. Really showed Kathy Johnsons inexperience in that department. As for technical coach, I think Patrick is fine right now.
  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    And thanks for your response, kittysk8ts! I agree that Patrick raised the bar in men's skating with his SS and his mastery of quads. I give him lots of credit for that. The times Patrick skated lights out, he certainly deserved huge scores. I think the judges simply went a bit overboard the times Patrick didn't skate well, which wasn't helpful for Patrick either on those occasions.

    Similarly, I don't think it's at all helpful for Hanyu when the judges over-mark him because they are mesmerized by his effortless jumps in his excellent sp. I think Hanyu deserved very good tech scores for his sp this season when he skated cleanly, but I still think Hanyu's PCS don't deserve to be off the charts and he was also over-scored for mistakes in his fp when he ran out of gas during his GP events.

    I understand how it feels to love a skater whose skating means a lot to you, and to enjoy many skaters and want to see them all do well, but especially the ones you love the most. :)
  26. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Patrick has said in an interview that Kathy Johnson is a laid-back person. Even more laid-back than Patrick, he said. How can anyone change their personality just because the job they do required it?!
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  27. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how being laid back and well prepare your students mentally interfere with one another...
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  28. london_calling

    london_calling New Member

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    Doesn't he have enough experience to know what the first competition means? Seems strange that at the point he's at, he would need a coach to tell him those sorts of things.
  29. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I honestly haven't noticed any change this season in how the judges have been scoring Patrick on the program components except that maybe he got even higher PC marks than last season when he skated well? I am thinking of Cup of Russia and his 92.67 points there. And when did he ever score 90+ in the past for a free skate with a fall on the quad, a zayaking and no 4/3 jump combination, maybe never? What only has changed IMO is that some of Chan's rivals have caught up with him in terms of technical difficulty and he doesn't have much room for error anymore when they skate well, that's why he is losing.

    I was definitely impressed with how Daisuke jumped from a PC score of 83 in the free skate at NHK to a PCS of 90 at the GPF in a matter of just two weeks, and he didn't even skate cleanly. That's what I call tremendous progress and I'm guessing he has Morozov to thank for it.:D

    Really? I must have missed that because I only remember Chan being constantly bashed by some whether he made mistakes and won or skated lights out and won.

    I totally agree with you but easier said than done.;)


    I thought that preparing the athletes mentally for every competition would be part of the job description of any coach, no matter how experienced the athletes are and whether it's an individual sport or a team sport. But I am not a coach myself, so I could be all wrong in my assumption.
  30. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I think everyone - haters and ubers alike - needs to take a chill pill. If he's still got major issues at Worlds, well, maybe then it's time to panic.
  31. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    To be honest, I don't think either Chan nor Takahashi deserved the PCs they got in the FS, but I think there's another explanation for that situation, and that explanation is called Hanyu. He skated before them, and for some absurd reason, the judges felt he had to score better in PCs than Fernandez and Kozuka (Do. Not. Even. Get. Me. Started. On. That. One). Those two got pretty high marks already (although justifyably so for the most part, imo) so they gave Hanyu a whooping 85+ in components

    By doing so, the judges essentially painted themselves in a corner because there was no way they could give Chan, Zayak and fall or no Zayak and fall, or Takahashi similar PCs to Hanyu, especially given the fact that he forgot his program at home that day, probably in an attempt to conserve enough energy to finish without a couple of stupid falls (and anyway, as much as I adore Hanyu and I think he has huge charisma anda clear ability to project, he just doesn't have the level of interpretation of the other two). Hence the high scores, although relatively to the others, they are pretty fair. The only component where Hanyu deserved more than Chan and, arguably, Takahashi was performance (but then Fernandez P/E should have gotten even higher so.....). And to be honest, I think the 5-points difference with Hanyu is still pretty low considering Chan has a much better structured program and Takahashi was well above his former performances and also has a better program concept anyway *shrug*

    From the moment the skater has good enough results to put him on the map, then there are always going to be bashers. I wouldn't worry too much about that if I were you ;)

    As for the reason of the whole thread..... seriously, can't we just wait until the end of the season before starting to give him advice on what he should/ shouldn't do? He's just changed a major part of his working structure, he's experimenting with his skating, these things take time to adjust to.

    And it's not as if he was mistake-free last season or if he hadn't zayaked himself before, so I really don't see that much of a difference anyway - new coach or not :lol:
  32. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    a) He discussed at Skate Canada his lack of mental preparation - he said that he and Johnson didn't talk about it until moments before he stepped out on the ice.

    b) He's popped several jumps this season, which is a mistake he doesn't often make. He's also been called on UR'ing - something he doesn't doo often either. He's lost combo points in every competition this season.

    I dunno - there's something about the mistakes he's making this season that do have me worried.
  33. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Lest we forget, he didn't choose not to have a tech coach. Krall resigned as she wasn't happy with a lesser role in coaching Patrick. I think her resignation after Worlds 2012 was not expected. Isn't Eddie Shipstaed qualified as tech coach? I am sure Patrick and family will have a clearer picture of what needs to be done after this season. I will take Kurt's advice to chill out for now. :)

    Just wondering whether Patrick will return to train in Canada after this season? Part of the reason why he ended up in CS was training the quads with Krall so now that he's no longer with Krall, he may have more reasons to return to Canada. I am sure there are many tech coaches in Canada too. Not Orser .... I think he's too busy with his many other talented students.
  34. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Krall and Chan said that under Krall, every moment of his day was planned. It's understandable that he'd eventually chafe under that and become hugely bored. A bored Chan is one who could walk away from the sport and go become an investment banker or something.

    From the outside it looks like he's gone to another extreme, but without knowing what his training schedule is, it's hard to say how radical his choice is.

    He did say that Johnson taught him to use his core differently and that this improved his jumps, even before she became his primary coach.

    That's a pretty low bar :p

    Cleaning up technique gives skaters more options, though.
  35. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    before the LP - not the first time he stepped out on the competition ice.
  36. Feb

    Feb New Member

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    I don’t think Takahashi’s program, interpretation and transitions were better than Hanyu’s at GPF FS. I enjoyed Blues for Klook, but this season Takahashi has an off Morozovy FS, not up to his usual standard. Hanyu’s program is also not as good as his last season’s program, but a little better than Takahashi’s imo. Also Hanyu skated almost lights out except that 2S, and he was faster than everyone else except Chan, including Takahashi. I think Hanyu deserved the PCS he got. I don’t think Takahashi’s PCS deserved to be 5 points higher than Hanyu. If Takahashi got 88 I can understand, but 90 with that many errors I don’t think so. Add to the fact that Takahashi got high GOE’s for his jump mistakes and underrotation jumps not called, I think the scores are too high for Takahashi’s performance.

    Chan had the best speed and the best music, but I don’t think his interpretation improved and it’s not better than everyone else. He deserved highest PCS for his SS, TR and CH, but his PE and IN marks shouldn’t be that high imo. Kozuka made errors and had a sleep-inducing program. I like his SP but his FS is sleep-inducing. I think 83 PCS is correct but should not be higher.

    Fernandez’s PCS is most inflated imo. He had the worst skating skills in the GPF 6 skaters, he was slow and labored even in the SP and had no flow. I see even Machida had better skating skills than Fernandez, and Chan and the other 3 Japanese are levels above him in SS. I don’t think the judges should give Fernandez 83, same mark as Kozuka. Imo Fernandez is a 7's level skater not the 8's. However, I also understand this is a sports and jumps are most important. I’m ok if Fernandez’s PCS was boosted by his quads at GPF, but if he doesn’t bring the quads at next event, then I see his PCS going down to where it should be.
  37. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I assume that Chan's goal is to win the gold in 2014, at the Olympics, so I don't think it is THAT important to him to win the 2013 worlds. That would take some pressure off him this year, and allow him the time to work on his weaknesses, which are only a few.
  38. Feb

    Feb New Member

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    Ditto. Plus I think Chan’s aware of his weaknesses, the inconsistency of his 3A and his interpretation. He’s working on them now, and I see a big chance for him to win the gold at Olympics.
  39. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    But another part of the reason was that training at high altitude had given Patrick great advantages at competitions last season.
  40. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Mar 14, 2011
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    5,564
    Completely agree