Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bardtoob, Dec 10, 2012.

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Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Poll closed Jan 14, 2013.
  1. Yes

    103 vote(s)
    76.3%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    8.1%
  3. Undecided. See me after Nationals.

    21 vote(s)
    15.6%
  1. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Christy Krall? Chan at 2010 Cup of Russia made the same mistake he did at the 2012 GPF.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2010/gprus10_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

    Don't get me wrong, I've always been in favor of a qualified technical coach for Patrick but I just wanted to clarify with you that this year's GPF was not the first time Chan zayaked, not even the second time, actually. I didn't blame Krall back in 2010 and I'm not blaming Kathy Johnson now either as I think it was Chan's fault in both cases, he just couldn't count on his feet while skating, simple as that.
     
  2. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that two mistakes is about standard for Patrick (including flawed landings, errors on footwork, and downgrades)? I haven't reviewed his past performances, but when I watch him it is much like watching Sasha Cohen in that I anticipate two errors.

    When was the last time he had a clean skate with no downgrades? Without reviewing his past performances, it seems to me that his 2008 skate at Canadian Nationals (when he beat Buttle) and 2009 skate at 4CCs in Vancouver were perhaps his best.

    I'd like him to do whatever he needs to do to produce a few perfect and flawless performances.

    But he fortunately is still fairly consistent with his quads and his 3A has improved steadily. Perhaps what he needs is not a technical coach, but a sports psychologist to help him with his focus. So many of his mistakes are just lapses in focus.
     
  3. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    ITA
     
  4. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    His LP was flawless at the 2011 Canadians - the first time he did 2 quads in one program. Looking at the protocol, he received only one 0 for GOE from one judge (his final spin and every other element received +GOE from every single judge.
     
  5. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I think Proustable did a great job of responding to your post, fsric, as does sk8ingcoach, below. ETA: I seriously doubt the break-up was about Chan's desire to "focus on artistry!" Krall doesn't have anything against skaters developing their artistic side.


    Interesting, and thanks for your comments. Krall and Patrick have broken up and I doubt they will be getting back together. I'd be surprised if they do.

    I agree that good technique as well as good training strategy and an excellent relationship with one's coach is essential. But I also think it certainly doesn't hurt for one's chi to be aligned while jumping and to be in touch with one's soul while performing on the ice. :)

    Kathy Johnson has previously worked with Matt Savoie and Jeremy Abbott, although she was never their primary coach. I don't know what other skaters she has worked with, but she is not new to the sport of figure skating. It could be more problematic to be working with with a coach whose daughter is your girlfriend,* than it is working with someone who does not have a lot of experience with the technical aspects of coaching and no previous experience as a primary coach. Although, re the girlfriend aspect, it certainly seemed to work fine for Viktor Petrenko,* in days gone by. ;)

    ETA: True Kathy Johnson has been affiliated with Juillard (as a modern dance teacher). However, I very much doubt that Kathy Johnson is either "stupid" or "obnoxious," no matter how much it irks Chan's diehard fans that he's made her his primary coach.


    :lol: And btw, Patrick will be 22 at the end of December. I'm sure his girlfriend provides him with those very important hugs. :)


    Your posts are also interesting, walei and t.mann. :p I think Dai is a bit stronger so far this season in landing his quads, but still Dai performed overall better than Chan or at least on a par with Chan a couple of times last season and Dai should have edged Chan in the marks sometimes last season, in my humble estimation. Clearly, Chan's win at Nice Worlds was unpopular with a great many people watching in the arena and around the world.

    As far as the ISU judges "not wanting any one skater to dominate" in the singles disciplines, I don't think that is factual. Plushenko dominated, as did Michelle Kwan probably because they were both consistently better competitors than the rest of the field when it counted along with being iconically talented. And once you build consistency and rep with the judges, it does provide an advantage. I think Kwan often had to prove herself more against a bevy of young challengers than did Plushenko overall. Kwan's dominance was never fully embraced by all of course, and her rep did run out with the judges as the 3/3 began to gain more importance in the ladies field, and Kwan began dealing with physical issues.

    Obviously, the judges can be fickle, but I think they are quite happy to continue rewarding the skaters they like who they think combine kickin' jumps with good to exceptional artistry. As someone mentioned, Patrick is still receiving excellent marks particularly on PCS, but his marks have been brought down to earth a bit (especially on technique) when he makes mistakes, whereas in past seasons the judges were much more forgiving toward Chan's errors. I think the judges would be quite willing to give Hanyu the sun, the moon and the stars from here to eternity, if he was able to be as fantastico in both programs consistently as he was in his two record-breaking sp performances during the GP. IMO, Hanyu still needs to develop more maturity along with endurance.

    Oh, and in regard to politiking, I doubt Canadian fed has lost any influence at all, albeit more feds likely want in on the influential political gamesmanship. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  6. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    ITA. After all, when Michelle Kwan split with Frank, she too was an adult with a lot of competitive experience (more competitive experience than Chan, I think). It wasn't enough for her ... an extra pair of knowledgeable eyes may have caught her problems with the flip earlier.
     
  7. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    I would wait until after Worlds. He's made this decision, he's been firm on it and he needs to see it through or he'll never know if the choice he made was worth it. As we no Patrick starts slow, so lets see how it ends...then panic ;) but I am loving his programs this year. As we've pointed out the rest of the world has gotten that much better so yes it is gonna be harder to win but it's not like he's completely 'lost' it. He wanted to try something different and this was the time to do it, if it fails I know he'll admit that and make the changes needed for the Olympic year.
     
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    That made me ill. I hope Patrick's skating does not evolve into something similar to Petrenko's, as Viktor had wonderful field moves before the 90s.

    Well, I, at least, doubt she is stupid, and that opinion has nothing to do with Patrick and is based on experience with such people ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ This is Patrick's thread, but I was the first to bring up MK. :)

    So, continuing in that vein at least for one more post, ... I get your drift. And sure it's true that having a family member with no coaching experience in the kiss 'n cry and at rinkside is not going to be very advantageous for any skater, especially at the Olympics (altho' of course KJ is not yet a "family member" to PC, and she does have coaching experience in skating, just not at the level of primary coach, until now). BTW, I don't think MK had any particularly drastic problems with the flip specifically. It was more that she was tight in general due to nerves and the magnitude of the moment and its very personal meaning for her. Frank might have been able to help calm her down and remind her about focusing on one thing at a time and to loosen up a bit in order to better access her "undaunted courage." Under pressure, Michelle's technique on the flip was a bit shaky, but she didn't really have problems per se with the flip. I just think it was a fluke that she had a slight awkward landing on the 3flip in the sp, and then Scott Hamilton unnecessarily made a big deal out of it during a post-sp interview. So under her obvious nerves and pressure when beginning her free skate right after Hughes had skated, MK seems to have become a bit more anxious than usual on that same jump in the fp, and the rest is history.

    Roger Federer went it alone for awhile but of course tennis is a completely different sport, and Federer soon brought back in someone for those "extra pair of knowledgeable eyes" and skilled technical advice, not to mention strategic advice. I think overall, even more than technical advice, Patrick is going to need strategic advice, which is probably best provided by someone of the caliber or at least close to the vicinity of the caliber of say, the one-and-only John Nicks. Still, I don't think Kathy Johnson is so huge a liability that Patrick's diehard fans are ascribing her to be and totally agonizing over.

    As mentioned, Patrick still experienced technical miscues while under Krall's tutelage. He may benefit by keeping Johnson on his team and bringing in a more experienced primary coach. However, the question is whether he can find someone willing to work in tandem with Johnson, and with whom both he and Johnson can work well with. It should not be overlooked that Patrick's more down to earth scores are likely partly a result of the over-scoring of his flawed performances that used to occur with relative frequency and to his final detriment at Nice Worlds.

    And now Hanyu is on the rise, and Dai is setting his sights to access his own "undaunted courage," the better to scale the top of the podium at Sochi Olympics (with or hopefully without Morosov) ;). Patrick is still "king of the hill," bloodied a bit and trying to thwart the Little Prince, The Man Who Would Be King, and the "porny" Don Quixote! And PChid should also look out for a possible miracle from Master and Commander, not to mention dare I say, Captain Blood! :lol: Meanwhile, I'll bet Kozuka is contemplating on conjuring up his own Exodus of quad + drama via Camille's Rondo. Therefore, nothing is set in stone, or uh gold. But this is figure skating, and anything and everything is possible, or none of the above. :p

    Did not forget the "ballsy" Plushenko who clearly and forcefully writes, directs, edits, re-writes, casts, provides the special effects and the make-up, and of course, produces and stars in his own dramatic comebacks. Whether or not his final fierce effort will be enuf to make the podium in Sochi is still an avidly debated question.
     
  10. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I started this thread knowing it was really about Michelle Kwan ;)

    Do you think Plushenko is likely to have a different coach?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  11. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Wow, there was a wonderful Viktor Petrenko before Galina Z and her daughter, Nina entered the picture! Thanks for that revelation. For goodness sake! :duh: Don't tell me, heck, was that the reason Petrenko's choreo and technique slowly began to suffer?!!! Aaargh ... sending out a "hint, hint" to the unmentionable one ... :yikes:


    You seem to be making a brilliant point here. ITA! ;)


    :rofl: :fan:



    Come on, at this point, of course Plush is his own coach, very similar to Roger Federer! Mishin is more now like the attendants that used to come on stage at the height of James Brown's frenzied but masterful performances, and mop JB's brow and cover him with his kingly robe, which of course was all a strategically planned dramatic ploy to further entice the audience. The King would suddenly throw off the robe, push aside the attendants, grab the microphone and keep on singing and dancing. :lol: :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  12. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    My post was to correct Vash01's comment that it was Patrick who decided to leave Krall. I think Patrick was too naive to think that Krall would be satisfied with the direction the coaching arrangement was heading, but from all accounts Patrick didn't leave Krall.
     
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Fair enough. So Patrick didn't "leave" Krall, and he was "too naive" to realize that Krall would not accept his desire for a coaching "rearrangement." Amounts to a mutual parting then in my mind. :)

    And of course, the parting of ways really had nothing to do with Krall "not being happy" with Patrick's desire to "focus more on artistry," as you originally implied in your post #18.
     
  14. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    I don't know what's the problem you have with my posts, I wasn't defending Patrick nor did I disagree with proustable and sk8ingcoach's posts.
     
  15. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Sure, losing a couple of competitions, even losing the worlds, is not life and death situation.;)

    Well, I think Johnson is maybe obnoxious but definitely is not stupid. She is too smart. She has a great people skills.:p She, a dance instructor who doesn't even know how to skate herself (well, her daughter has skated, if that counts...;)) could gradually move in closer to the ice and the skaters and their moms, could push Krall away further and further. Finally, tookover the whole coach thing. What a clever lady she is!:yikes:

    The strange thing is this soul and chi talking couldn't help Patrick's nerves.;) He has had "stage fright" and is losing confidence he owned so firmly last year.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  16. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Hmmm, but then you seem to be implying that Chan is a pushover and is easy to manipulate. Or, at the least that Kathy Johnson is an "obnoxious, ambitious dance instructor" who has plotted and planned in skating rinks over the years to convince skaters and their moms that she deserves to be a primary coach, and she finally scored a coup with Patrick Chan. How do you know that it wasn't Patrick himself who convinced Kathy to become his primary coach?

    I can't wait for the next installment in the scarily entertaining and ever evolving soap opera/ comedy/ horror flick/ melodrama on and off ice that has become The Patrick Chan Story, as written and created by overwrought fans, over-pumped fed, over-scoring judges, and over-excited sports writers.


    ETA:

    :lol: OMG, "stage fright!" Surely you are kidding! Patrick could have fooled me. He doesn't seem scared at all when he takes the ice. BTW, I think "soul and chi talking" is actually designed to help calm our nerves and access our inner beings, which are too f*ing cool and objective to be afraid of anything.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  17. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I think I've read accounts where Patrick has owned up to being nervous in a comp but it's usually after the fact.
     
  18. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :confused:
    Ah... talking about 'thy own posts'? :D
     
  19. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Look at how excited Patrick's normal detractors are! Jumping ups and downs. That's another indicator that Patrick's decision was wrong.:shuffle:
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  20. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    I was in Pinzolo this summer and saw the training sessions of Mishin for couple of weeks, I can assure you that Plushenko was training with Arthur, Liza and the 10 years olds on Mishin team and was following the same warm up and instructions of the coach, then in the main training Mishin was side by side with him correcting, shouting, talking all the time, every few mins they had a discussion with Kenji and so on, I expect by this time Plushenko can change his schedule and take a day off if he feels like it but in the training Mishin was Mishin. But in Pinzolo he had the same schedule like all.
     
    kwanfan1818 and (deleted member) like this.
  21. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Ha, ha, thanks for setting my JB perceptions re Plushenko straight, senorita! Ah, but do we know what Mishin was shouting about exactly? ;) Mishin to me seems to be an excellent technical coach with very little understanding of artistry. I also think that Plush knows his body so well that he’s fully aware of what he’s capable of doing and how to do it at this point. OTOH, I'm sure it is important and necessary for Plush to have Mishin by his side supporting, admonishing and encouraging him about stuff he’s fully aware of. You can't beat having another set of eyes watching from someone who has trained you from a very young age. Speaking of which, brings us back to the topic at hand. ;)

    Not really. And, it's "thine own," btw. :) I'm talking about posts from overwrought and over-protective PC fans in this and other threads, but no need to name names. We all know who we are. ;) And looking back on this thread, I think it is obvious there is an outcry among Chan fans that Kathy Johnson is at worse leading "poor, easy to manipulate" Chan astray, and at best she is not the right primary coach for him. All well and good re thinking KJ may not be the best primary coach for Chan, but I don't think that can be proven by Chan's performances so far this season, since he's started seasons under Krall making similar technical errors.

    Moreover, the claims that Krall was "not happy" about Chan wanting to "focus more on artistry," and the negative insinuations that Kathy Johnson is "a clever, obnoxious lady" who "pushed Krall further and further away" from Chan are seriously OTT and befitting a soap opera script, IMHO. I won't even go into the remarks of the poster in another thread who claims to be close to Chan's parents, and who was obsessing over matters involving Chan's personal life, which are none of that poster's or anyone else's business.

    And I find the reference to Patrick having "stage fright," a bit OTT too. Every athlete experiences nerves or they aren't "normal." The key is in learning how to manage one's nerves and still perform to one's best level. Actual "stage fright" or "performance anxiety" can be a more serious condition which if Patrick actually had a severe case of it, he'd be in serious trouble. He wouldn't have been able to make it through warm-ups, much less entire performances! According to Wiki: "Stage fright has numerous manifestations: fluttering or pounding heart, tremor in the hands and legs, sweaty hands, diarrhea, facial nerve tics, dry mouth, and erectile dysfunction." :eek:
     
  22. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about it, and I don't think Patrick realizes that the stall in his artistic development came from the choice to keep the Phantom of the Opera LP for two years. Few realize it because the word "opera" is in the title, but the musical theater version of Phantom of the Opera lacks depth, both musically and emotionally, that is required to inspire artistic depth.
     
  23. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    I think at this stage it maybe wouldn't hurt if he had a specialised technical coach at least looking him over. But isn't he actually working with someone like that as well? I thought that was mentioned elsewhere. At any rate, Chan is an adult, he's got his big-boy panties on, and now it's time for him to sink or swim by making his own decisions and mistakes. It's part of growing up. *shrugs*

    It certainly hasn't damaged his edges or his movement at any rate, he's still got those stunning deep edges and nice lines.

    Although I'm :lol: at the people who think that Christy Krall didn't like a "focus on artistry"? Well shoot, can someone please explain to me what happened to Josh Farris when he went with her and Damon Allen? Cos last time I checked, he's more artistic with Krall than he ever was with Zakrasjek.
     
  24. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think at this stage of the season, it's promising that his 3axel is coming off nicely and he hit both of them at GPF (with huge GOEs to boot). His quads have always been on and off, so hitting 2 out of 3 mid-season is not bad at all.

    He is learning new programs and we all know everything he does is so difficult. It will just take some time for everything to gel. He isn't winning not because he has problems, but because others are closing the PCS gap with technical goodies. In any event, I don't think Canada needs another defending men's champion heading into the Olympics...
     
  25. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

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    It seems to me that although he could use some help on the technical side, the majority of his problem is not with know-how, but in confidence. I almost think he needs someone like Kurt Browning who can help him with his nerves, honour his commitment to exploring the artistic side, and call him out when he's getting lax with his technique. Patrick seems to have struggled with finding the right coaching mix ever since his coach, Mr. Colson, passed away. Almost a little lost. Maybe he needs someone like a Mr. Colson to be his advisor to find the right situations that make sense for him.
     
  26. Corianna

    Corianna Active Member

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    Kurt's advice - (on one of the podcasts) was that Patrick's fans should take a pill, and let him experiment this season. He said he believes that if his current path doesn't work by the end of the season, Patrick will do figure out what is needed, and take the right steps. It may be hard on out nerves, but perhaps we should go along.
     
  27. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Kurt's juvenile comments continue to irritate me.
     
  28. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Kurt. I have already taken a pill to calm my nerves and anxiety.:lol:
     
  29. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    Don't most skaters who leave Zakrasjek improve their artistry?
     
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ Or at the least, in order to further develop their artistry. That's why I think Ryan Bradley would have fared better had he left Tom Z at age 17 or so when RB was evincing some elegance and potential artistry. Ryan stuck with Tom Z throughout his career and never developed stretch and grace nor ever realized his fullest potential presentation-wise. Jeremy Abbott had loads of artistry, but it was in his genes already, and he soared higher artistically when he left Tom Z. Brandon Mroz seems to be lost in the wilderness; even his jumps are no longer working for him. Certainly, Max Aaron might be able to take another step toward improving his presentation, if he at the least got some dance training/coaching, but I guess Kathy Johnson is too busy working with Patrick. ;)

    IMO, Kurt makes some sense, and he's certainly witty, as usual. I really don't see Patrick as lacking "confidence" necessarily. I think the ISU judges really messed with Patrick's head tho' with all those "high scores" when he made mistakes. It makes for a bit of confusion in terms of figuring out what you need to work on if even your "not so best" is considered gold medal worthy to an ad nauseum degree and to the point of audience boos (not so much against Patrick, but against the judges).


    Ha, ha! Very "clever" perception, Eyre. :p Although I'm not "jumping ups and downs," indeed I am glad for Patrick's sake and the sport's sake that the judges are not over-scoring him unduly. It provides Patrick with the opportunity to know where he stands, and to bring it when it counts. While I don't “normally” tend to root for Patrick, I’m not averse to pulling for him when he skates well. Sure he’s not one of my favorite skaters, but I've been more a detractor of some of the marks he's received than I have been of him personally.

    The past over-marking of Chan has come home to roost in the sense that some of Chan's fans (some of whom have always seemed nervous, over-protective and never satisfied) now seem to be "tearing their hair out" because Chan is no longer routinely winning with mistakes. Dai stepped it up in his sp at GPF, but Chan and Dai were somewhat on a par in their fps. Although I feel Dai is still more masterful presentation-wise, Chan has better SS overall, and definitely kudos to Chan for focusing more on artistry this season. IMO, Fernandez still needs to improve his artistry and consistency, and Hanyu is a precocious young skater who should be allowed more time to fully develop. But that probably won’t happen because the sport rewards effortless looking quads and what appears to be good artistry, even if said artistry is still immature and not fully realized in the Little Prince.

    Ultimately, I agree with Kurt that all is not lost. Why not relax and enjoy the journey, Chan fans, instead of harping all the time on his every decision and every loss? Of course detractors, "normal" or otherwise have harped on Patrick's overly high-scoring wins when he hasn't skated well. But when Patrick has skated out of this world, there has been praise and admiration expressed for him and his skating across the board. :)