Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bardtoob, Dec 10, 2012.

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Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Poll closed Jan 14, 2013.
  1. Yes

    103 vote(s)
    76.3%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    8.1%
  3. Undecided. See me after Nationals.

    21 vote(s)
    15.6%
  1. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he needs a technical coach. He has skated the way he has been skating the last two years. It's just that others have overtaken him to some extent, but they are not so far ahead that he needs to panic. He had just one major mistake (fall) in his LP; the other one on the 3A was less serious. About him tagging on a jump after his second quad- it's just something he needed to learn. I am sure he will not make that mistake again.
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  3. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    I just feel like Patrick lacks the structure, coaching-wise, he seemed to have in the past. Krall is an excellent coach, and I'm sorry she's no longer Patrick's.
  4. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    Absolutely not. So many people here put way too much emphasis on needing a coach. It's not like he has horrible technique now or anything.
  5. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

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    I recognize he often makes some mistakes in one program. On the other hand, he always fixed his technique by Worlds. I'm sure he will be in the best shape in London.
  6. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    I don't know.. not a skater. But as a fan, I will feel more comfortable and assured if he gets at least a p/t technical coach, not necessarily primary coach. Does he has one now?

    For more fun, here's 14yo Patrick at 2005 Jr Nationals FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzDOZx9WcV0
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  7. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Patrick is and will be just fine.
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  8. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    On the bright side, he landed both 3axels at GPF and they were both wonderful!
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I think Patrick Chan is "entitled" to make his own decisions. ;) Besides, it's not as if Patrick didn't make technical mistakes in his programs when Christy Krall was his coach. And, in any case, there is someone with technical expertise on his team right now.

    But, perhaps one of the poll options might be: Should Chan choose a more experienced coach for the Olympic season while keeping Kathy Johnson as his dance/ artistic coach and mentor?

    Another possible question:

    Why do the judges show more love to Hanyu than to Chan this season? ;)
  10. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    I believe that Patricks issue is between his ears.
  11. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    I agree. Kristy is a disciplinarian and I don't think that was working for him. He said he wanted to "take more control" of his training. Read that as "I want to train and skate how and when I want".

    I'm not a fan of this. I'm a believer in structure. Patrick doesn't need to be taught how to skate or jump but he, like anyone, would need regular tweaking. Just like in golf, for example, athletes develop bad habits in their technique regularly and this must be kept in line. Who's doing that for him now?

    I think he needs technical maintenance and a disciplined approach to training. Yes, there's a "between the ears" factor probably because he knows he's being watched closely by fans and the federation; he's feeling pressure to show his new approach is working. But you can bet if he finishes 3rd or lower in London Skate Canada will be all over him to go back to more traditional coaching methods.
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  12. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Of course, it is because they want Patrick to add a Beillmann and this is how they give him the message.
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  13. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    That will NEVER happen, if only because the men below Chan are so very, very far below him!
  14. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Or maybe Patrick needs his own version of a lucky Pooh bear!

    Anyways, I doubt Patrick is going back to Krall, nor will he dump Kathy Johnson. Brian Orser is taken ... or should I say already has his hands full with Fernandez and Hanyu. Patrick's not going to go to Frank Carroll. Really, at this stage of Patrick's career, who else is there? ... Toller Cranston has been out of the scene for so many years, he's not the kind of coach Patrick would need I don't think. And once again, Patrick's not going to dump Kathy Johnson. How exactly does he describe her role in his training process? Who was Buttle's former coach? Are there good Canadian technical coaches Patrick might consider? I think he already is getting technical advice from someone.

    Also, reminder: Patrick began to have technical miscues when he was still working with Christy Krall. So, why does everyone think it's a technical problem that needs to be addressed? It could be an approach to training problem, as someone already mentioned.

    IMHO, it's more that incorporating the quad consistently (even if it has been mastered) is a difficult problem for all the top men. It's a lot more difficult than the sport is noticing or acknowledging. Patrick is not the only one with technical inconsistencies this season and past seasons (and the 3-axel has never been an easy or consistent jump for him). The main difference, IMO, is that the judges were kinder to Patrick when he made mistakes the past two seasons, and I think he got very used to that benevolence, which frankly was upended in Nice.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  16. naan

    naan New Member

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    As a fan, it would be great if Patrick has a technical coach, but I believe Patrick knows himself more than we know, and he will make a wise decision as he did before :)
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Patrick is an adult. I think only he knows what works for him- a structured approach or a more flexible approach. I was surprised when he decided to leave Krall, but apparently he was not happy with her approach. I don't see anything wrong in him trying a different style of coaching. This is not the Olympic year, and there is enough time to make some adjustments. I don't believe those would include going back to Krall though.
  18. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    Sigh! He didn't leave Krall, Krall decided to leave because she's not happy with Patrick's intention to focus more on artistry.
  19. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow, I never knew he made so many technique changes since then!
  20. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ I don't know what you are talking about. The program was a splat fest for sure but the basic skating was the same and he achieved somethings by 14 that some Olympic Champions could not replicate. I really liked his jump entrances, even if they ultimately resulted in a fall.
  21. googooeyes

    googooeyes Member

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    Of course Patrick knows what he is doing and is an adult and can make all his own decisions etc. But a skater needs a knowledgable pair of eyes looking at them all the time to pick out the small changes in body position and balance that you CANNOT perceive yourself. Patrick's air positions are becoming inconsistant and that is a slippery slope.
    Re the GPF: this business of not knowing how to change his program and which jump to make into the combo etc. after he fell in the long program just shows that he wasn't prepared by his coach. What coach would EVER send a skater into competition (even a 10 year old!) without discussing a "plan B' for moving the combo jumps if a fall happens? For goodness sakes he is at the top of the skating world and they didn't discuss and practice this? Time to get a skating coach Patrick.
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  22. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Or, more specifically, he wished to downgrade Krall's role from head coach to instructor, with Kathy Johnson getting a promotion (recalling that he'd been working with her for at least a year). Krall decided at that point to terminate her working relationship with Chan.
  23. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    :confused:??? His jumps entrances now are completely different than what they are in the video. His arms are lower now on the take off; the edge on his lutz is now on an outside edge; his flip takeoff is striaght now; his toe-picking leg on the lutz is also lower.
  24. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ I was thinking you were talking more about basics.

    ... my eyes still see correct edges for his jump entrances, but you are right about the air position, entrance turns/steps, and picking on his jumps, but he was a gangly 14 year old, so not much would be the same after 2 years.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  25. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Duplicate
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  26. minx

    minx New Member

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    His right arm is quite different. Much more refined with less wasted effort. He's skating smarter, not harder.

    I would like to know if he's doing a lot of work with Dartfish still.
  27. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the judges are preferring Hanyu over Chan this season, or they were giving Chan a free pass last year. Chan's win with mistakes was because others at the same competition weren't clean either (SP+LP). Looking at Chan's GPF marks, with mistakes Chan is still getting the highest PCS (~5 pts higher than Hanyu ~3pts higher than Takahashi). If Chan skates clean with two quads, he is still unbeatable.
  28. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Krall did everything for Patrick. She provide a strong structural plan for that was working. Kathy Johnson first started as an off-ice dance instructor which i believe worked well for him. However Kathy Johnson slowly went from off-ice, to on-ice training. That on-ice training went from improving his artistic to attempting to help his jumps by talking about his soul and his chi. Obviously jumps have nothing to do with your soul and your chi and krall knew this. Krall then slowly became more of a secondary coach instead of primary coach which is ridiculous because Krall is clearly the real coach in this situation and johnson is just some stupid obnoxious lady that went to julliard. Krall told Patrick that she needs to be primary coach or she will quit, but patrick wanted johnson.

    I was coaching in Colorado Springs at the time and this is the story i heard

    Patrick needs Krall. Jumps do not work because your chi is aligned. Jumps are about technique and Krall provides that.
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  29. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    The judges seem not to want that one skater dominates the field, though the skater(Chan, Voir) is a talent of all-time level.
    I don‘t think that Canada federation have that strong power in ISU as many people claim.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  30. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    I am sure there are better things to hug than a Pooh bear for a 21yo man. ;)
  31. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Christy Krall? Chan at 2010 Cup of Russia made the same mistake he did at the 2012 GPF.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2010/gprus10_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

    Don't get me wrong, I've always been in favor of a qualified technical coach for Patrick but I just wanted to clarify with you that this year's GPF was not the first time Chan zayaked, not even the second time, actually. I didn't blame Krall back in 2010 and I'm not blaming Kathy Johnson now either as I think it was Chan's fault in both cases, he just couldn't count on his feet while skating, simple as that.
  32. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that two mistakes is about standard for Patrick (including flawed landings, errors on footwork, and downgrades)? I haven't reviewed his past performances, but when I watch him it is much like watching Sasha Cohen in that I anticipate two errors.

    When was the last time he had a clean skate with no downgrades? Without reviewing his past performances, it seems to me that his 2008 skate at Canadian Nationals (when he beat Buttle) and 2009 skate at 4CCs in Vancouver were perhaps his best.

    I'd like him to do whatever he needs to do to produce a few perfect and flawless performances.

    But he fortunately is still fairly consistent with his quads and his 3A has improved steadily. Perhaps what he needs is not a technical coach, but a sports psychologist to help him with his focus. So many of his mistakes are just lapses in focus.
  33. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    ITA
  34. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    His LP was flawless at the 2011 Canadians - the first time he did 2 quads in one program. Looking at the protocol, he received only one 0 for GOE from one judge (his final spin and every other element received +GOE from every single judge.
  35. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I think Proustable did a great job of responding to your post, fsric, as does sk8ingcoach, below. ETA: I seriously doubt the break-up was about Chan's desire to "focus on artistry!" Krall doesn't have anything against skaters developing their artistic side.


    Interesting, and thanks for your comments. Krall and Patrick have broken up and I doubt they will be getting back together. I'd be surprised if they do.

    I agree that good technique as well as good training strategy and an excellent relationship with one's coach is essential. But I also think it certainly doesn't hurt for one's chi to be aligned while jumping and to be in touch with one's soul while performing on the ice. :)

    Kathy Johnson has previously worked with Matt Savoie and Jeremy Abbott, although she was never their primary coach. I don't know what other skaters she has worked with, but she is not new to the sport of figure skating. It could be more problematic to be working with with a coach whose daughter is your girlfriend,* than it is working with someone who does not have a lot of experience with the technical aspects of coaching and no previous experience as a primary coach. Although, re the girlfriend aspect, it certainly seemed to work fine for Viktor Petrenko,* in days gone by. ;)

    ETA: True Kathy Johnson has been affiliated with Juillard (as a modern dance teacher). However, I very much doubt that Kathy Johnson is either "stupid" or "obnoxious," no matter how much it irks Chan's diehard fans that he's made her his primary coach.


    :lol: And btw, Patrick will be 22 at the end of December. I'm sure his girlfriend provides him with those very important hugs. :)


    Your posts are also interesting, walei and t.mann. :p I think Dai is a bit stronger so far this season in landing his quads, but still Dai performed overall better than Chan or at least on a par with Chan a couple of times last season and Dai should have edged Chan in the marks sometimes last season, in my humble estimation. Clearly, Chan's win at Nice Worlds was unpopular with a great many people watching in the arena and around the world.

    As far as the ISU judges "not wanting any one skater to dominate" in the singles disciplines, I don't think that is factual. Plushenko dominated, as did Michelle Kwan probably because they were both consistently better competitors than the rest of the field when it counted along with being iconically talented. And once you build consistency and rep with the judges, it does provide an advantage. I think Kwan often had to prove herself more against a bevy of young challengers than did Plushenko overall. Kwan's dominance was never fully embraced by all of course, and her rep did run out with the judges as the 3/3 began to gain more importance in the ladies field, and Kwan began dealing with physical issues.

    Obviously, the judges can be fickle, but I think they are quite happy to continue rewarding the skaters they like who they think combine kickin' jumps with good to exceptional artistry. As someone mentioned, Patrick is still receiving excellent marks particularly on PCS, but his marks have been brought down to earth a bit (especially on technique) when he makes mistakes, whereas in past seasons the judges were much more forgiving toward Chan's errors. I think the judges would be quite willing to give Hanyu the sun, the moon and the stars from here to eternity, if he was able to be as fantastico in both programs consistently as he was in his two record-breaking sp performances during the GP. IMO, Hanyu still needs to develop more maturity along with endurance.

    Oh, and in regard to politiking, I doubt Canadian fed has lost any influence at all, albeit more feds likely want in on the influential political gamesmanship. ;)
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  36. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    ITA. After all, when Michelle Kwan split with Frank, she too was an adult with a lot of competitive experience (more competitive experience than Chan, I think). It wasn't enough for her ... an extra pair of knowledgeable eyes may have caught her problems with the flip earlier.
  37. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    I would wait until after Worlds. He's made this decision, he's been firm on it and he needs to see it through or he'll never know if the choice he made was worth it. As we no Patrick starts slow, so lets see how it ends...then panic ;) but I am loving his programs this year. As we've pointed out the rest of the world has gotten that much better so yes it is gonna be harder to win but it's not like he's completely 'lost' it. He wanted to try something different and this was the time to do it, if it fails I know he'll admit that and make the changes needed for the Olympic year.
  38. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    That made me ill. I hope Patrick's skating does not evolve into something similar to Petrenko's, as Viktor had wonderful field moves before the 90s.

    Well, I, at least, doubt she is stupid, and that opinion has nothing to do with Patrick and is based on experience with such people ;)
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  39. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ This is Patrick's thread, but I was the first to bring up MK. :)

    So, continuing in that vein at least for one more post, ... I get your drift. And sure it's true that having a family member with no coaching experience in the kiss 'n cry and at rinkside is not going to be very advantageous for any skater, especially at the Olympics (altho' of course KJ is not yet a "family member" to PC, and she does have coaching experience in skating, just not at the level of primary coach, until now). BTW, I don't think MK had any particularly drastic problems with the flip specifically. It was more that she was tight in general due to nerves and the magnitude of the moment and its very personal meaning for her. Frank might have been able to help calm her down and remind her about focusing on one thing at a time and to loosen up a bit in order to better access her "undaunted courage." Under pressure, Michelle's technique on the flip was a bit shaky, but she didn't really have problems per se with the flip. I just think it was a fluke that she had a slight awkward landing on the 3flip in the sp, and then Scott Hamilton unnecessarily made a big deal out of it during a post-sp interview. So under her obvious nerves and pressure when beginning her free skate right after Hughes had skated, MK seems to have become a bit more anxious than usual on that same jump in the fp, and the rest is history.

    Roger Federer went it alone for awhile but of course tennis is a completely different sport, and Federer soon brought back in someone for those "extra pair of knowledgeable eyes" and skilled technical advice, not to mention strategic advice. I think overall, even more than technical advice, Patrick is going to need strategic advice, which is probably best provided by someone of the caliber or at least close to the vicinity of the caliber of say, the one-and-only John Nicks. Still, I don't think Kathy Johnson is so huge a liability that Patrick's diehard fans are ascribing her to be and totally agonizing over.

    As mentioned, Patrick still experienced technical miscues while under Krall's tutelage. He may benefit by keeping Johnson on his team and bringing in a more experienced primary coach. However, the question is whether he can find someone willing to work in tandem with Johnson, and with whom both he and Johnson can work well with. It should not be overlooked that Patrick's more down to earth scores are likely partly a result of the over-scoring of his flawed performances that used to occur with relative frequency and to his final detriment at Nice Worlds.

    And now Hanyu is on the rise, and Dai is setting his sights to access his own "undaunted courage," the better to scale the top of the podium at Sochi Olympics (with or hopefully without Morosov) ;). Patrick is still "king of the hill," bloodied a bit and trying to thwart the Little Prince, The Man Who Would Be King, and the "porny" Don Quixote! And PChid should also look out for a possible miracle from Master and Commander, not to mention dare I say, Captain Blood! :lol: Meanwhile, I'll bet Kozuka is contemplating on conjuring up his own Exodus of quad + drama via Camille's Rondo. Therefore, nothing is set in stone, or uh gold. But this is figure skating, and anything and everything is possible, or none of the above. :p

    Did not forget the "ballsy" Plushenko who clearly and forcefully writes, directs, edits, re-writes, casts, provides the special effects and the make-up, and of course, produces and stars in his own dramatic comebacks. Whether or not his final fierce effort will be enuf to make the podium in Sochi is still an avidly debated question.
  40. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I started this thread knowing it was really about Michelle Kwan ;)

    Do you think Plushenko is likely to have a different coach?
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012