Pope Benedict XVI Resigning as Pope!!

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Lorac, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. bek

    bek Guest

    First of all I never said that all Catholics agree with the Church 100%. Nor did I say your not Catholic if you don't follow the rules perfectly? What the heck makes you think I don't know a ton of nominal/partial Catholics? Of course I do. You think I don't have lapsed Catholic family members? Or friends who go to church and have maybe issues with gay marriage? Of course I do. And I never said these folks weren't Catholic.

    But Catholicism does have official teachings. We also have canon law. And its not the average person in the pew whether someone like me or the nominal Catholic over there who defines Catholic teaching. Its rather the Pope in union with the Bishops. And they define the teachings on the basis of Scripture and Tradition. Catholicism is not a democracy.

    Plenty of Catholics dissent/disagree. And of course I see the way the wind is going and that there isn't another eventual Church split on the rise. Of course I can see and feel it coming. But I know where I stand on it...And in the end I stand on it because of the path my own relationship with the Lord....
     
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  2. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Well said, oleada. Catholicism and national/regional cultures are in some cases inextricably linked. Thus, many people still see value in and identify with certain Catholic practices even though they do not believe in God and/or the Vatican.
     
  3. JJH

    JJH Well-Known Member

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    I've read on this thead that the last time a pope resigned was in the 1400s. I assume this was during the period of competing papal successions in Avignon and Rome. Which pope resigned and under what circumstances? Was it voluntary or under duress?

    I am not Roman Catholic so I'm not knowledgeable on the subject. How can Papal infallibility on the subject of faith be transferred from one living pope to another? From the perspective of church tradition, how can two simultaneous heirs to St Peter be explained?
     
  4. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    What makes me think the way I do? Because you act/talk as if you're talking about all Catholics whenever you talk about anything to do with religion, when really, you're speak for yourself. My mother wouldn't consider herself a "nominal/partial Catholic", even though you would likely consider her to be. She wouldn't consider herself lapsed or non-practicing either. Official teachings or not, she's a Catholic because she says she is. You may be able to define the teaching - though I find it sad that when you did ("the Pope in union with the Bishops") there's no mention of God - but you don't get to say whether someone is Catholic or not based on your understanding of the teaching, or anything else. And also, many Catholic churches choose to teach things differently and are more liberal and considered Catholic. Someone can call themselves a nominal/partial/lapsed Catholic, but I don't think it's good practice to label another person that way. If they say they're Catholic, they're Catholic, just like you.
     
  5. bek

    bek Guest

    First of all I didn't label any single person a nominal Catholic. I was talking about a group, not a single person. I have never gone to a single person and said your nominal. Nor did I say that on this board....But yes if your not attending mass without good reason your not practicing. One point I was making earlier is that you have many who bring up numbers of Catholic who disagree with Church teachings. And while yes absolutely there are those who still go to mass and still practice the faith. I'm still willing to bet that the biggest proportion of that group doesn't attend mass. And I don't think its going to change no matter what the Church does in that area. There may be some who don't attend Mass because they don't like some Church teachings... But there are others who I'm sure don't attend for other reasons. At the end of the days those who come to mass come because they sense God's presence there... I'm not thinking about gay marriage when I'm at mass.

    And as for me not bringing up God. I actually was going to bring up God and why I feel very strongly that the system of Scripture/Tradition and the bishops/popes deciding is something God wants.

    I grew up Protestant, and when I choose to become Catholic it wasn't because I was unhappy with my personal relationship with God. That was fine, but I became Catholic because of an experience I had with God. I.e I feel God showed me why the Catholic system is the system He wants. Why because the Protestant way of Sola Scriptura leads to all kinds of multiple denominations and it also obscures truth. I had a Professor in seminary who use to say all the time well Scripture isn't clear, so you just choose for yourself. Now there are some areas we are never going to have a clear understanding. But there are other areas that are pretty serious. Areas that are leading to Christians dividing. Scripture talks about Christians coming into agreement, and so no I don't think the Holy Spirit is leading folks to all kinds of multiple conclusions. So in my own relationship with the Lord, He convinced me that if your not sure about a meaning in Scripture, than yes you should look at what the early church said, what the Holy Spirit has said to the Church throughout time. Because we received the faith from them. He also showed me is if there's still disputes, why the bishops plus the pope decide. What it came down was my decision it was not just about me, or what I thought.... Its about the Church speaking with one message.

    Now there are other Catholics who didn't have that experience with God, and I get that. But thats why I take the position I do.
     
  6. zaphyre14

    zaphyre14 Well-Known Member

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    It's Baptism, First Communion, First Confession/Penance, then Confirmation in my Diocese. Comunion is 2nd grade, Confession is 4th grade and Confirmation is High school, generally grades 10 or 11. When I was a child Communion and Confession were done together but somewhere along the line since they've split them up. The reason I heard was that 4th graders are better able to understand the concept of Confession and Penance than 2nd graders.
     
  7. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

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  8. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    How does one take Communion if they have not been to Confession? I suppose that since 2nd graders haven't committed mortal sins, they can receive communion without confession, but we were always told you had to be a blank slate for the first one, and then confession was required only if you committed a grave sin. (Though by second grade I think some kids have intentionally broken the Honor your Father and Mother commandment.) I remember we mostly confessed tiny stuff...

    I'm a bit baffled by the idea that Confession/Reconcilliation is difficult for 2nd graders to understand, but transubstantation (which I probably spelled wrong) is on their level! The idea of confession is much easier- they've been made to say they are sorry for years by this point.

    Since the Canon Law says confession must proceed communion, how do the parishes that do it later justify that?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  9. Moto Guzzi

    Moto Guzzi Well-Known Member

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    I went to Catholic school for seven years. In second grade, a large part of our religious studies was preparation for making our first confession and our first communion, in that order. We didn't wait until fourth grade for our first confession, nor did we wait until high school for confirmation. I think I was 12 when I was confirmed. We lived in a small town and the Bishop came only every few years for confirmation so the ages varied. My older sister, younger sister, and I were all confirmed at the same time along with the others in our grade level.
     
  10. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    But there are plenty of other people who feel they have a personal relationship with God (or whatever they choose to call the divine) who are not Catholic. And some who are Catholic but whose experience is not identical to yours.

    So what makes your experience more authoritative than anyone else's, e.g., someone whose experience was that God showed them why the Catholic church was NOT what he/she/it wanted?
     
  11. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    We had Confession and Communion together for the reasons Skittl said.

    And definitely I had Confirmation before High School because I was out of that church by then. My parents stopped making us to go Church when I was 11 and I was already confirmed by then. I went back at 13 then left again at 14 when we moved and I went to a Quaker high school.

    I approve of having Confirmation in High School though.
     
  12. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Our church had confirmation in High School because that was an age where we could understand the decision we are making. Apparently it can be done from age like 7 onward according to the Catechism, so having it with Communion is no big deal. I also read that Confirmation can be offered to babies being baptised if there is immediate threat of death. I didn't know that, I just thought the baby had to be baptised.

    I was born a premie, and my Mom and Grandfather had a huge fight because she wouldn't allow a priest in to baptise me right away (for fear of germ exposure), when they still weren't sure I was going to make it. She kept telling him she was sure if it was the wrong decision God would punish her and not a baby. He was insisted that if I died I was going to hell. I didn't die, so I can't report who was right...
     
  13. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    No more insufferable that you…I’m sure many Catholics would find you not believing in God, not agreeing with their practices and not wanting to raise your kid’s catholic insufferable, especially when you ‘hesitantly’ ask to use their church for your wedding. Unless your husband is 100% Catholic and wouldn’t have it any other way? :rolleyes:

    90%+ of the population identify themselves with being Catholic, fine; but you clearly don’t. Getting married in a Catholic church with as much disdain as you seem to have for it (regardless of what your culture dictates) is disrespectful to not only the church you were married but to the religion in general.
     
  14. Southpaw

    Southpaw Saint Smugpawski

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    I received my sacraments in this order:

    - Baptism (don't remember it)

    - Communion (2nd grade, I remember my ill-fitting veil well)

    - Penance (4th grade)

    - Confirmation (8th grade)
     
  15. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Baptised as infant. Confirmation at 12 or 13 (8th grade). The Sunday after Confirmation, First Communion. I don't know if this is typical of all Episcopal churches, but our church believed that you should be confirmed before receiving communion.
     
  16. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    This is a very good and interesting point. Religion is closely linked to culture and has many social aspects which are important even if you disagree with the church on many issues.

    Jesus was a socialist, a radical, a troublemaker, who stood on the side of the oppressed and the rejected. Catholic Church has absolutely nothing to do with his teachings.

    'Tis ok, I'll make a killing selling cheap made in China plastic Virgin Maries that I'll queer by painstakingly decorating them with pink glitter. :glamor:

    Same in Poland.

    Not like Catholic Church and logic go together. :p

    That's a very idealistic and black and white point of view which ignores actual social reality.
     
  17. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    My experience is that most Catholics in areas where being Catholic is as much a cultural thing as a religious thing are very familiar with attitudes like this and don't find it particularly insufferable. It's actually a natural outcome of the religion morphing into a cultural phenomena. There are way too many people who put on the trappings of the religion without believing the dogma in this situation so mostly people don't probe too much as long as you are willing to go along with the outer expressions.

    Most friends and family would be far more horrified by her not getting married in a Catholic church by a priest than by getting married in one when she doesn't believe. This, in fact, is a large part of the problem IMO. There is huge pressure on people to get married with a Catholic ceremony and so they will say and do what they have to in order to make peace with the people who are important to them even lying about how they are going to raise their children -- who haven't even been born yet!

    The thing is, the Church makes a big deal about how all it's sacraments are only for Catholics. It's all built into the dogma and there are plenty of writs and writings about it. Only Catholics can have the sacraments except under very specific circumstances mostly involving imminent death and not being able to get to the practitioner of your choice. (I.e., if you are Catholic and can't find a priest, you can get Last Rites from a non-Catholic official and vice versa.)

    It's only in the area of marriage that they go around these rules even though the rules are pretty clear and they pretty much only do it because getting non-Catholics to agree to raise their kids in the Church helps grow the Church. At least that's my opinion on why they do it. To me, it's as unethical as letting people buy absolution, which used to be an extremely common practice as well.
     
  18. Andora

    Andora Well-Known Member

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    I think you're being rather harsh. I get that for many Catholics it's strictly a question of religion/faith, but I wouldn't discount how heavily influenced/tied some cultures are by the church. It's not an easy separation and I don't think it's fair to assume it would be.
     
  19. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    For me it was baptism as an infant, then confession and first communion the same weekend when I was in 3rd grade (which was late -- most of the kids in my first communion class were in 1st and 2nd grade), and confirmation when I was 13 and in 8th grade. Since in those days we were taught that eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin (I did wonder at it being given the same gravity as killing someone) and there were many other sins that were deemed worthy of confession, I recall having quite a heavy burden of guilt going into my first confession. :shuffle:
    When I was a high school senior, I was my youngest sister's confirmation sponsor (not sure if that is the correct term).

    ETA: My sister and I managed to infect most of our first communion class with measles. :shuffle: My sister was already feeling unwell and had chills -- I remember my mother having a heated argument with one of the nuns about my sister wearing a light-weight white cardigan over her organdy communion dress. It was a draw -- my sister wore the cardigan walking the block from the school to the church in the procession and my mom removed it as she entered the church. That and the scratchy net veils are my strongest memories of the event.
     
  20. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Mortal sins aren't all equal. I mean, they are all damning, but the penance needed to clear them isn't the same. I think I remember someone once telling me that due to 'honor thy father and mother' and 'though shall not kill' it would be worse to kill your parents (since that is two commandments) than a stranger. Um...

    According to wikipedia (good source right) the Catechism actually addresses gravity of mortal sin. It is worse to murder than to steal, for instance.
     
  21. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    This is the usual order/procedure in my Episcopal church, also.
     
  22. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    Catholicism is also a very real link to ethnic and cultural tradition for immigrant groups, even many generations removed. I see that very much in how my husband's Polish family has their ethnicity and cultural tradition rooted in church tradition. Even those in his family that do not regularly attend church see the church as part of their cultural identity as Polish-Americans.
     
  23. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    Hence the term "Non-practicing Catholic".
     
  24. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    There was nothing about differences in the gravity of mortal sins taught by my catechism teachers -- a mortal sin was a mortal sin and the eternal punishment was the same, no matter what If you died with an unconfessed mortal sin and didn't make a deathbed act of contrition, you went straight to hell. To me that seemed rather extreme punishment for eating a hot dog at a Friday ball game. :lol: Of course, since I long ago stopped believing in hell, it's rather moot now.
     
  25. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    They didn't cover it fully then. When I say "in the Catechism" I mean the official document of the church, not the CCD or CCE or whatever they called them each year.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM


    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM
    See 1858.


    Edit: 1457 might be interesting to anyone who is practicing and their children are going to first confession after their first communion. I would definetly ask the parish for explanation! "Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time."
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4D.HTM
    I don't believe this, but if you were devout, allowing that to happen could put your child's afterlife in danger should s/he die before they get that first confession.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  26. AnnieD

    AnnieD Active Member

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    When I was a child we had baptism first, then we made our First Confession and Holy Communion when we were in Primary 3 (aged about 7) within weeks of each other. Then confirmations were held once every two years and all the Primary 6's and 7's (anything between about aged 10 and 12) were confirmed. They're doing all three main ones in Primary 4 now in the space of a year. I think 8 years old is very young for confirmation, although I'm presuming there's some reason that it's been changed here.
     
  27. bek

    bek Guest

    To be honest I do struggle with the whole Catholic marriage thing. My brother has a Catholic girlfriend. He is not Catholic, although he has talked about becoming Catholic so he could say he was Irish Catholic. My parents were Catholic married in the Catholic church and left. We were never baptized Catholic but a lot of our extended family is Catholic. My brother in someways would like to be a nominal Irish Catholic. That's why I'm so comfortable about saying nominal because for some it is a cultural thing.

    However, his Girlfriend is Catholic, they are living together. Now personally I would like to see them getting married. She is such a great girl... However, I will be put in a position if they get married outside the Church. Because if its outside the Church the marriage is invalid.. And I do believe this in a way. Especially considering the fact if your going to say divorce isn't possible. One could argue a Catholic who is not necessarily practicing their faith, isn't in the right place to make this life decision. I.e she comes back to the faith and then is stuck with this choice before.

    But I'm in a position where I could go to the ceremony and not be part of it... Or the church may so no to the marriage because of the living together. (Personally I think if they want to make the relationship right before the Lord, let them make it right). There are some practical problems here.

    I do personally think the concept of mortal sin being "full consent is important". I.e someone may be convinced they aren't really sinning.

    Hopefully they will get married in the Church and/or she just won't ask me to be in the wedding. But I will not like being the position of not being able to be in the wedding because I'm really afraid she'd consider it a rejection of her. And well I want my brother to marry her; she's a sweetheart.

    For many Catholic is like being Jewish. Its part of the culture...
     
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  28. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    So it's okay for them to live together but not get married outside the church? I don't see the logic in this.
     
  29. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    If they are in a civil marriage, she could get divorced. The church doesn't consider it to be a marriage, so the divorce isn't real. According to the church, since they are not 'married' they would be living in sin, but they already are... At least this way they would be eligible for insurance, survivor's benefits and other things marriage entitles one to from the government.

    I don't think it is a good idea to go into marriage considering the conditions for divorce though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  30. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    Not quite. As I understand it, marriage between two baptized persons is considered valid and civil marriages are considered valid unless it is demonstrated otherwise. An annulment is required for a divorced Catholic to remarry in the church or for a Catholic to marry a divorced non-Catholic in the church. A friend married a non-Catholic in a civil ceremony because he is divorced and refused to go through the annulment process. He has never been baptized in any denomination and she was told that the annulment process would have been very simple but still required, yet he still refused.