Pope Benedict XVI Resigning as Pope!!

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Lorac, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    It's true though. You're not going to encounter racial and ethnic prejudice if you are perceived as white. At least not to the same extent as if you were seen as 'coloured.'
     
  2. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    You must not have spent very much time in places with a substantial non-white population.
     
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    More specifically, with substantial Latino populations.

    There's white and there's white in the US at least and always has been, and white skin doesn't give one automatic entry into white-white. At various times and still in specific places Jews aren't white people, Italians aren't white people, Irish aren't white people, Catholics aren't white people, immigrants from places that have only white people aren't white people, and Latinos aren't white people.

    When I read Jimena's comment, I though of a Mexican friend who is Caucasian, who when moving out west to join her husband and started a job hunt, although the market was strong all the time and she had a degree from one of the Top 10 MBA programs and terrific job experience back East, got zero response when she used her maiden name, and as soon as she changed it to her (very Anglo) married name, suddenly was actively recruited, and this was in a region where the high tech industry has thousands of Chinese- and Indian-born employees, and it's not an isolated place ethnically.
     
  4. Jimena

    Jimena Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you got my point. Whatever they thought about my experience in the US, I'm Latina. Period. Even if I haven't lived through those struggles myself, I have close family (parents and siblings) and friends that have gone through that, and it doesn't mean I'm not "Latina", or that I don't identify with those struggles, or that it doesn't piss me off that some people think they can get away with saying racist things in front of me or to me because I have a very good education, or I barely have an accent, or my skin is pale and I can pass as white (which, I'm not, at least as it is generally defined in the US. We're all racially mixed in PR in some way or another.).

    And don't you think it's prejudice when some members of an ethnic group tell me that I'm not Latina enough? Hell, Spanish is my first language, I was raised dancing Salsa and with Latin American soap operas, reading Mafalda and very aware of the US history in Latin America, the dictatorships and human rights abuses and the plight of the indigenous populations. There are a lot of Latinos in the US who do not have any of that history and still consider themselves Latinos. Who am I to deny them what they truly believe they are? The more the merrier, IMO. And our presence is stronger because of our diversity.
     
  5. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    Jimena, as a Latina who has been told I'm too white or pale or speak too proper to really be Latina, I could not agree more. You took the words right out of my mouth!
     
  6. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    So sounds like being Latino/Latina is more about culture than race. In which case Pope Francis qualifies.
     
  7. beepbeep

    beepbeep Resident Rude Brazilian

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    But all it takes is saying where you're from.
    Then comes the classical "But you don't look Brazilian/Latin!"

    I realize I may be walking on eggshells here, so I'm already apologizing in case it comes across wrong.

    Everyone looks Latin. Specially in places like Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay... due to heavy immigration form basically everywhere in the world.
    The whole latino label seems more related to the indigenous people of Latin America.
    The Brazilian community in US and Canada is huge, yet they are not called latinos.

    I'm as white as white gets, with French and German last names, born, raised and residing in South America.
    I'm Latina. I think it's about culture, regardless of skin color.
     
  8. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    From my experience, being Latino simply refers to originating from a country in Latin America. One can be any race and still be Latino. But I see people differentiating between those who are meztizo, and everyone else. Colloquially that can take the form of "She's not really Latino--she's white."

    I tend to see those distinctions more in the West/SW.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  9. Citlali

    Citlali Well-Known Member

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    That happens to me too, I'm Latina, but white and green-eyed, I have Italian last names (my grandparents) and my married name is Chinese (his grandparents). I :lol: when I have new patients expecting Dr. Chou to be Chinese and I come out :eek:

    Pope Francis is definitely Latin, here the news was one of our own is Pope... even if the people here don't like Argentinians* all that much:p

    *Porque siempre nos ganan en futbol
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I did get your point. But I can also understand the point of view of the activists who told you what they did because it's also true that you're much less likely to encounter racism when you can pass as white. So there's a certain level of prejudice which you will not encounter and they do.
     
  11. Jimena

    Jimena Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't denying it. But their point wasn't that. Their point was that it made me less of a Latina. And I disagree. Their argument holds absolutely no water for me.

    And may I say, your need to point that out to me twice is kind of insulting. Because, come on, it doesn't take a genius to realize that as a woman with pale skin, I'm less likely to encounter a certain kind of prejudice. Duh.
     
  12. D&Sfan4ever

    D&Sfan4ever Living in a Snark

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    Quite true, I'm latina, but my skin is so white that my grandma is always telling me go to sunbathing because I look almost green, according to her.
    I get the "b b but you don't look latina" every time I travel abroad.

    *Pobrecita :p
     
  13. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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  14. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I'm very impressed. Washing the feet is a symbolic gesture to begin with, and the symbolism he picked is huge. To include women! Wow. And non-Christians. Double wow. And to go to the suffering, and not just other priests. This guy is the PR statement the Catholic church needed.

    Although maybe I'm most impressed he included women, because "the apostles were all men" has always been a very strong arguement.
     
  15. sk8pics

    sk8pics Well-Known Member

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    I watched the video of Francis washing the feet of the people, and he was also kissing their feet. The last one they showed, I think it was one of the women, he just smiled so kindly and happily at her afterwards. It was really touching.

    Forgot to add, and I guess it is huge that women were included because it is technically not allowed in the rubrics. I'm sure many parishes have ignored that, if they didn't have the whole congregation participating, but it is a big deal for the Pope to ignore a rubric like that.
     
  16. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I think that is standard. At least, the priest at the church I grew up in always did that.
     
  17. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Finally a Pope not afraid to ruffle the feathers a bit.

    I imagine there's going to be lots and lots of drama incoming. :watch:

    I guess it's less of an argument and more of an emotional response coming from somebody who's been on the receiving end of a lot of crap and not wanting to be equated with somebody who can (and in their eyes probably does) pass.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  18. Jimena

    Jimena Well-Known Member

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    I'd give you that if it was an isolated incident with just one person. But not when it's repeated by people in positions of leadership in very well known Latino organizations, with the power of those organizations behind them. Some of them developed a limited definition of what being "Latino" was.

    I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to get at. Are you trying to shed light on white priviledge? Trying to get me to empathize with the struggles of Latinos and other people of color in the US? I'm :confused:
     
  19. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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  20. sk8pics

    sk8pics Well-Known Member

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    Yes, many do. But I don't think it is a required thing. I just found it moving.
     
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  21. bek

    bek Guest

    I like this pope too. I'm big on traditions when it comes to faith and morals. But practices I think can change and should change. I love him including washing the feet of women!

    I'm thrilled that this Pope has such a concern for the poor and has lived in a part of the world that has dealt with the excesses of capitalism. I'm very pro life and I do vote that way, but I don't like so many thinking Christianity is just Republican causes. Because its not...I think this Pope can go in the right direction there, and really emphasis the Church's teaching on the "option for the poor."

    I like that he lives a simpler life too. I don't think the Church should go to the lengths of well selling all their art... Or stop creating beautiful churches. Partly because I think the art is available for the world and donations can be used to help the poor. But there's a lot of excess the Church doesn't need to have too.

    I mentioned Romero but apparently rumors are this pope strongly favors Romero's canonization...
     
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  22. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Would you care to be specific?

    Throughout most of the Pope's lifetime, Argentina has had extensively nationalized industries, a high rate of unionization, extensive state subsidies for social services, and a fairly moderate rate of income inequality. Are these are the excesses of capitalism? Or were you thinking of something else?
     
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying that the people who create a narrower definition of what being Latino means are necessarily right (and it's definitely not right from your perspective because you are being excluded based on something that you have no control over) but I can understand where they are coming from.

    Are you for real? Argentina? The country which went bankrupt because of the total de-regulation of the financial industry? Whilst what you mentioned might be true, that 'little detail' you forgot about is a perfect example of 'the excesses of capitalism.'
     
  24. bek

    bek Guest

    I was thinking in terms of the dirty war in Argentina and the issues in Latin America altogether. Even if Argentina is in a better situation. Also the fact that this pope places such a strong emphasis on the poor.

    However in general, the position of the Church is that both capitalism and communism/socialism have their problems. Read some of Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II's statements in this regard. In a lot of ways economically the Catholic Church is to the left of Nancy Pelosi. The Church does not see capitalism as God's system on earth... http://loyno.edu/jsri/catholicism-and-capitalism

    In this sense Francis is saying what his predecessors believed, he's just emphasizing it more, and I think its good for the Church. In appropriate balance. That's why I'm thrilled about the idea of the Romero getting canonized. The real Romero not the caricture that the folks towards the left and to the right like to give him.

    Honestly part of what drew me to Catholicism is the fact that the Church isn't really toward the left or towards the right. But rather takes positions that both sides of the aisle would hate. With its strong defense for example of the rights of the unborn, but also strong defense for the poor as well...And its stance on War too. A consistent ethic for life.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2013
  25. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you let bek speak for herself?

    As it turns out, her conception of what she was talking about is radically different from yours.

    What, exactly, does the Dirty War have to do with capitalism? The atrocities were committed by the public sector.

    Living your whole life in Argentina doesn't necessarily make you any more qualified to talk about the "worst excesses of capitalism" in Mexico than does spending your whole life in Oklahoma, whch is a heck of a lot closer.

    Latin America is not one big homogeneous mass of countries.
     
  26. bek

    bek Guest

    First of all Argentina is not a third world country by any means. But it does have a larger gap between the wealthy and the poor than let say what exists in Europe.

    Second, in Latin America where I'm sure the Pope was surrounded by all of those issues that would give him a slightly different perspective. Argentina has direct neighbors going through all kinds of issues and to think he didn't see that. Being a cardinal in Latin America he'd have more surrounded by these issues. Because the issues of your neighbor moving over. Also dealing with a repressive far right government like what existed in Argentina....Although obviously Benedict and JPII faced repressive governments.

    However I was saying more because of this Pope's own personal emphasis with the poor. I.e his decision to forgo a lot of the trappings of the church, take the bus as a cardinal. He has always stressed emphasizing the poor and I think its clear he's going to do it now more than the other two. He is going to emphasis it more in his ministry. Not because he knows what it means to be poor but because he cares about the poor. And I'm thrilled this is happening.
     
  27. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but I have to say that I think you are grasping at straws to justify your statement that you are thrilled that the Pope has lived in a part of the world that has dealt with the excesses of capitalism.

    In general, Argentinians do not have very many contacts with neighboring countries other than Uruguay, which is culturally very similar to Argentina and does not have the crushing poverty seen in parts of Brazil and Bolivia.

    This Pope did study in the Chile in the early 1960's, but unless you can show me how that experience or any other dealings he's had with other South American countries had any significant influence on him, I can only surmise that you are making completely unnecessary assumptions because you want to think good things about the Pope.

    The Pope obviously does care about the poor, but everything I have read and heard about him indicates to me that it is his experiences in Argentina -- hardly a bastion of the "excesses of capitalism" -- are what shaped his views.
     
  28. D&Sfan4ever

    D&Sfan4ever Living in a Snark

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    Ok, that's it.

    No, my country is not "bastion of the excesses of capitalism", it's a bastion of rampant corruption, idiotic economic policies in general and an alarming lack of industrialization in all areas (except agricultural). Oh, how could I forget, it's a country prisoner of an image, that of Juan Domingo Peron and Evita, the political party formed around that image, the Partido Justicialista (or Peronismo) has virtually destroyed the country during the last 30 years, everything is done in the name of "Peron and Evita", and yet nothing works, but the poor keep voting them in the hope that "the good old days" come back once and for all :wall:
    But truth be told, the Dirty War does have something to do our current situation. Along with the atrocities that were committed by the public sector, the military also actively actively applying a planed devaluation or the currency, forcing the national industries to compete with cheaper imports thanks to the devaluation, which effectively destroyed them, therefore starting the snowball that finally crushed the country back in 1989, and then again in 2001. Of course 1989 and 2001 could have easily been prevented had there been someone with half a brain as economic ministry, but that's another story.

    As far as the current Pope continuous preoccupation with the poor, well, after 2001 half of Argentina's population were below the poverty line, and since then that number has only improved because of the massive amount of benefits the government distributes among them. Mind you, poverty, drug addiction and crime are still rampant among the poor and the effort to fight those is placed mostly in the hands of ONGs and the different churches (catholic, evangelic, hebrew and muslim) that wish to help (thanxs again to our "wonderful" president, who chooses to say all this problems simply don't exist, that those are simply a "feeling" the people have). That, I would think, is the main reason behind his resolve to fight of them, biblical teachings aside, of course. He simply refuses to swipe the issue under the carpet, like Kirchner does, or simply turn a blind eye to it, like all the previous administrations (both democratical and dictatorian) did.

    What? No, not exactly.
    At the very least 1/3 for Argentina's poor are either Perubians, Bolivians or Paraguayans who came here looking for a better life. So as far as influence, I think the pope is deeply influenced as far as the different realities of the South American countries go (I won't go as far as say Latinamerican countries since we have almost 0 Central American migrants here and only middle class Colombians coming in the last decade to study in our universities).
    And, as far as cultural influences go, it depends of the Argentinian region you are in, our entire north is deeply influenced by both Bolivia and Paraguay, while our west and south west are influenced by Chile (but not nearly as much as our north is by Bolivia and Paraguay). As you said, Uruguay does not count as far as influence goes, since they are very similar to the Argentinians, or better said, to the east of the country and the porteƱos (citizens of Buenos Aires).
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  29. reckless

    reckless Well-Known Member

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    It is huge and apparently, it has infuriated some traditionalists.

    This may be veering into politically incorrect territory, but seeing this Pope washing the feet reminds me of a story I heard about Cardinal Mahony, who was the Archbishop of Los Angeles. A friend of mine was involved in planning a special ceremony at the Los Angeles Cathedral that was intended to serve as an act of recognition and contrition for the Church's treatment of sexual abuse victims. (This was years ago, well before we learned just how active Mahony was involved in the cover-up.) Because of the symbolism, the group that planned the ceremony wanted Mahony to wash the feet of one of the abuse victims. He adamantly refused and said it would be more appropriate if the victim washed his feet. :mad: (My friend left the Catholic Church a year later.)
     
  30. sk8pics

    sk8pics Well-Known Member

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    Reckless, that is a sad story.

    I expected the traditionalists to be upset, and I'm sure there will be things for everyone to be unhappy about, at some point. But so far I am liking what I see, and I wish Francis a long and healthy pontificate.