Pope Benedict XVI Resigning as Pope!!

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Lorac, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. Lorac

    Lorac Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,541
    Breaking news on the BBC news channel saying Pope Benedict XVI will resign from the post on February 28th this year!! Hasn't been done in centuries apparently :eek:

    All papers/webpages just have it as breaking news but no further details so far.
  2. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    25,018
    CNN is also saying he'll step down on Feb 28th
  3. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Messages:
    4,437
  4. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    7,872
    This is amazing. Not since the Middle Ages has this happened.

    I wonder what's behind it? I hope that he goes back to Bavaria and writes the Great Tell-All Book!
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Thank god! (sic!)

    Worst pope ever.

    I was sure that there was no way, we could get an even more conservative, backward, dangerous idiot than John Paul II but they've decided to choose the only candidate who has fit that bill.

    In a way it was a good decision I guess because it meant speeding up the catholic church's move into total irrelevance. :p
  6. Lorac

    Lorac Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,541
    It appears he believes he is too old and weak in body to continue with the office. He has apparently been told not to take any more transatlantic flights and feels he cannot represent the papacy as he feels it should be.

    I just wonder how a successor can rule effectively with an ex-pope still living. I would guess Pope Benedict will go into seclusion of some form.

    Personally I hope a younger more progressive Pope is elected that will help move the Church into the 21st century as it is still rather conservative and orthodox and needs to get more in-tune with the populous - especially the younger generation.
  7. bek

    bek Guest

    I'm not sure why the Church should change orthodoxy...Yes some of our positions may not be popular but the Church shouldn't take positions just because they are popular. Its not like the Churches that are making deals with the Culture are gaining all kinds of membership in and of themselves. The areas where Anglicanism for example is growing is the more Conservative areas... The areas where they are compromising with the Culture, they are losing church attendance. The more conservative Protestant churches are growing the less conservative ones aren't.

    Catholicism's biggest strength and why it has survived for as long as it has and become as big has it has is because of its understanding of Revelation and the strong belief that Scripture and Tradition are equal. And I'm talking about Tradition I'm talking about faith and morals. The idea that the Catholic faith is a revealed faith that has been passed down through generations. And the concept that Truth doesn't change. We may grow in our understanding but the fundamentals of truth don't.

    It is this understanding that allows us to be as large as we are and also has far less splits in our end. Because there's a documented agreed way that we are going to handle our problems. How beliefs should be are also less subject to interpertations. While Protestants may argue about when baptism should be done, nature of faith/works, and eternal security. Protestants are going to continue arguing and continuing splitting over these issues and things like it, and whatever new doctrines people come up with for evermore. Catholics just say what has the Church traditionally taught on said subject and the answer is finished. We had our Church council discussed this and the matter is settled forevermore. If you can't understand why this works so well for Catholicism even if a lot of cradles don't like it....Once again why should all this time Catholicism be Protestant. If Protestants are happy with the splitting and doing things that way and frankly a more post modern approach well good for them.

    We start changing our Orthodoxy and this fundamental standing we will start having as many break offs as the Protestants have.. Why should we change fundamentally the way they are. If people want a more "modern form of Chrisitanity, there are plenty of Protestant branches too choose from.

    .And as mentioned its not shown it would increase church attendance etc (although that's not a reason to do so)...People don't necessarily truly practice a faith, they may say they are the faith, but they don't truly practice one just because the faith tells them everything they want to hear.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2013
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    It's interesting given that for a substantial part of John Paul II's reign he was suffering from a number of physical and neurological issues and was nothing more than a puppet who was barely able to speak. Seems they've decided to go another route this time.

    He will probably live a secluded life in some monastery, I would guess?

    Sooner the hell will freeze over. :D

    And would this necessarily be a good thing for Catholicism?

    As Bek said, their strength lies in tradition.

    I had this conversation with this super religious guy and he said that the Catholic church is not a supermarket. It should not try to be likeable by everybody. In a way it's good if people leave because the ones left are the ones who really believe and it's more productive to focus on them.
  9. bek

    bek Guest

    See the thing is not that I don't care about those people, and I do think we should try to reach them. But I don't think Catholicism should change what it fundamentally is. A lot of the Catholics who want the Church to "change" aren't the ones who show up to mass every weekend. And I somehow doubt the Church changes they are going to start somehow showing up.

    And in fact I think when these people start truly looking for a faith that speaks to their lives they aren't necessarily going to want something that just tells them what they want to hear. And at the end of the day we get rid of Tradition, you leave Church teaching subject to the whims of corrupt leadership
  10. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,510
    Then maybe they should use a different adjective to describe themselves other than "catholic" (=universal, general, comprehensive) ;)
  11. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,542
    It's what happens when you join Twitter. The end of all.
    IceAlisa and (deleted member) like this.
  12. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,086
    I don't show up to mass every weekend anymore because the church is stuck in a time and belief system that I can no longer be a part of. There are still parts of Catholicism that I greatly identify with, and that has prevented me from changing religions, but unless the church changes, I won't be there. When/if the church changes, I'll take my place back in the pew. I'm not expecting that to be anytime soon.
    Andora and (deleted member) like this.
  13. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    16,467
    ^^This.

    I am for a less conservative pope this time around, but not holding my breath.
  14. Lara

    Lara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2001
    Messages:
    13,400
    Same here. But fingers crossed anyway.
  15. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    13,827
    Are you kidding us? Yes, let's look at the tradition. The auto-de-fe was part of the tradition. The raping of the Americas was a part. The corrupt Popes all throughout history was a part. The lip service to the vow of celibacy has always been tradition. The promotion to pope of a man who was a huge part of covering up widespread pedophelia was no surprise to those who know the tradition.

    I am a religious person who respects other people's beliefs, so I can respect the various Catholics I have known who sincerely believe in the Church's tenents. Sadly the higher the leaders of the Church become, the less they seem to adhere to those teachings. Though this is common among many other religions. But don't tout the Church's traditions & worry about changes leading to corrupt leadership when one of the most evil person in our lifetime steps down from a position he had no business having in the first place & when much of the leadership is already corrupt.
  16. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    17,390
    I don't know that the church should necessarily change doctrine. However, there are some things that, maybe, should change. For example: why should Priests remain unmarried and celibate? That began in 1123. Prior to that they were allowed to marry. There is a lot of speculation on the reason. Whether it is because Christ was unmarried, and this makes Priests more like Christ. Or did it have more to do with land and monetary ownership and the church losing that when sons did not go into the family business and inherited the father's (Priest's) estate? Maybe a combination of both. But, is that an area where the church could change? Would it fix some serious issues?
  17. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,461
    What WOULD prompt me to really leave (and probably find the most rigid Orthodox or High Anglican church I would) would be substantial liberalization. The world does not need more relaxed standards. The last thing I want are women priests (I can't even work for secular female bosses because they're too process and emotion-oriented instead of results and rationality oriented) and idiotic kum-bay-ya-ing instead of order. The job of a Church is not to pat you on the head, give you a cookie, and tell you to do whatever feels good because if it feels good, it must be right and moral. You want that, join the Satanist church (which is NOT, I might add, about "worshiping Satan", more like hedonism as a religious calling, and I actually respect them more than most liberal Protestant denominations. At least their theology is honest.)

    But I think this is a good thing because apparently he is too ill to travel and does not want another situation like with John Paul II, with a very sick Pope lingering for years, basically unable to function. Word on the radio was he'll retire to a monastery. And the new rules require the next Pope chosen be under a maximum age.
  18. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,461
    They do allow Anglican and Orthodox convert priests to remain married, though not to remarry if their spouse dies, so I'm not sure it would be a HUGE change. I don't know how much of a help that would be--the younger priests these days tend to be more hardcore orthodox than the older ones already. And I think the reasoning was inheritance and preventing losing Church resources to supporting a family, which is obviously not as much an issue under modern law. (And of course nepotism.)
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    That happened because of inheritance and church losing estate, I think.
  20. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,542
    First and foremost, I'd love to see changes with regards to birth control.
  21. Southpaw

    Southpaw Saint Smugpawski

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    11,962
    I heard he's gonna move in with you.

    :sheep:
  22. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    30,358
    I was wondering about his age when he first was elected pope. He was 78 at the time, IIRC. That's the age well past retirement and I just heard that the job requires one to work 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week, including flying around the world, different times zones, etc. This is a very demanding job even for someone younger.

    The pope, according to reports, has trouble walking. I think it's a very wise and fair decision on his part, even though it hasn't happened since 1400. He thinks the Church deserves someone who can put up with the rigorous schedule and has more energy than he does at his age after having been Pope for 8 years.

    That's right.
  23. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    13,827
    Yes we women need to be kept in the home where we belong. We sure shouldn't be in charge of anything, right? :rolleyes:

    It's attitudes like yours that have kept women down. You sound like my grandmother from the "old country" who suffered through a horrible arranged marriage & then arranged marriages for her own daughters.
    Erin and (deleted member) like this.
  24. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    7,167
    I hear that he will be allowed to stay in Vatican City.
    ...and then there's this gem going around InternetCuckoo-ville. :rolleyes:
  25. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    30,358
    The yahoo article I just read said he will stay at the papal summer residence outside Rome (sounds divine) for a while and then retire to a convent in Vatican. It seems that he intends to keep himself out of the new Pope's way.

    What I don't understand is the :drama: already being whipped up by the press. The Church will destabilize, inner circle "incredulous", shock waves around the world.

    Really? The Church has survived a lot worse in the last 2,000 years.
  26. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    17,390
    ^^ Both. That is one theory, which I believe is the most plausible. However, many in the church deny that. They believe it is the closeness to Christ and the unimpeded ability to minister to God. That, for me, doesn't seem logical, since celibacy and inability to marry happened long after the start of the church. And, I do believe that allowing Catholic Priests to marry would help with the molestation problems.

    I agree. I can understand the church not budging on abortion. But, birth control would be huge.
  27. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    17,390
    Sorry - glitch
  28. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    30,358
    But in reality I would bet a lot of practicing Catholics do use birth control. It's not like the Catholic families I know have a gazillion kids. Two is the usual number, in keeping with the national average.

    It's the Jewish orthodox mothers that make me :eek: when I see a 25 year old in a wig with 5 kids and another on the way, driving a minivan.
  29. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,086
    Even if they don't want to allow hormone birth control (which we were counseled as "you don't even know how many abortions you've had!") barrier method would be a huge step!
  30. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    17,390
    Ordained female ministers are no different from ordained male ministers. Where did you get the impression that they tell you to do whatever you want? Both ministers at our church (Episcopal) are women. When my mother passed away, we had her memorial service there. The female minister spend two hours with me, helping me come to terms with my loss. Was she emotionally involved? Absolutely. Did she pat me on the head, give me a cookie, and tell me to do what feels good? Absolutely not. We talked about life, after life, God/Christ, faith. She helped me more than any shrink could have, at the time. And just an FYI, that church does more missionary work and has the largest soup kitchen of any I've come in contact with.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  31. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    30,358
    I don't expect the Church or any other form of orthodoxy to budge on birth control. They want more Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc.
  32. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,762
    No. Pedophiles do not molest children because they are single. That is a complete misunderstanding of that pathology.

    Coming from a Protestant background into the Catholic church, I see the issue of married priests from a different perspective. The pressure on spouses and children of pastors is very damaging sometimes. And the job of a pastor/priest is very consuming often leaving inadequate time to nurture a marriage and be a good parent. In that respect, celibacy frees priests to devote their whole energy to the church and does not leave a spouse or children without adequate attention/devotion from a husband/father. At the same time, it also makes it difficult for priests to have balance and space away from their work.
    julieann and (deleted member) like this.
  33. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    17,390
    This made me chuckle. My daughter is getting her master's in Occupational Therapy. Probably 25% of her fellow classmates are Jewish Orthodox young women, who fit that description exactly. My daughter came home, after her first day of classes and was amazed! She couldn't believe how young they were, that they were married, had more than one or two kids, and were taking on such a difficult program!
  34. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    17,390
    I was not specifically speaking to pedophiles. There has been molestation in the church for centuries, nuns for example.
  35. Stormy

    Stormy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,752
    Yup. This! From someone who went to mass every single Saturday until I was about 20 as well as Catholic school from K - 12 and then a Catholic college. There is so much I disagree with that the Catholic church teaches and believes in that I doubt I will ever go to Catholic mass again. My husband is Lutheran and his stepfather is a Lutheran pastor and we were married in their church. If we ever had kids they won't be brought up Catholic, that's for sure.
  36. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,762
    Again, though, rape, molestation and other forced/non-consensual sexual behaviors are not a result of being single. Married/partnered people can engage in those behaviors just as much as single ones.

    The Catholic church does not have a monopoly at all on sexual misbehavior by clergy or others in position of power. The media has under reported incidents in other denominations. This blog catalogs a number of incidents and cover-ups both Catholic and Protestant. It is mind boggling. But if you read it, you might notice that marriage is not much of an inoculation against such behavior:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/category/sexual-offenderspedohiliathe-church/
    Moto Guzzi and (deleted member) like this.
  37. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,542
    True in NA and most of Europe but what about women in the 3rd World countries?
  38. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    30,358
    I am not sure women in these countries have wide and easy excess to birth control to begin with, regardless of religion.
  39. Andora

    Andora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2002
    Messages:
    10,632
    This, agreed. But I don't think the church will ever change. Birth control change could be so effective in poorer countries. Changing position on homosexuality. Re-focusing on helping the needy vs. Joey The Rat piping up about feminism and such.

    Maybe I'm just unfair because I want the church to agree with me, and that's not how it works. But I refuse to go back while the pedophile priest scandal is dismissed by the church (in fact, didn't Ratzinger claim it was persecution at one point? :rolleyes:), among other things I've mentioned.

    That said, I'm glad Ratzinger is stepping down. I don't hold much hope for the future of the church, but there's slight potential now...

    Never change, danceronice. Your ridiculous take on women never fails to bring me joy.
  40. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,542
    very true.