Police Pepper Spray 8 Yr Old

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by skaternum, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. rjblue

    rjblue Re-registered User

    5,878
    864
    113
    I quoted your whole post, because it is an extremely accurate analysis of my son's problem. And I left out part of the story. When the situation came to a head, we told the school we were no longer going to punish him, because it was making it worse, not better. And they (along with us) started a strategy of helping him focus on only improving one aspect of his classroom behavior at a time. He can't see himself as others see him, so he needs to focus on one thing at a time, and build good habits.
     
    taf2002 and (deleted member) like this.
  2. Prancer

    Prancer True Fan of the GOAT Staff Member

    39,778
    8,391
    113
    She says she wants to bring attention to the issue in order to ensure better training for the police.

    Of course not; OTOH, it will certainly weaken her chances of winning or even filing a lawsuit. And if you are in media and public relations, you understand the power of going public with your message.

    I beg your pardon?

    Then that's all there is to it, I suppose.
     
  3. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    Better training to do what, exactly?
     
  4. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

    20,991
    2,567
    113
    I guess to subdue raging children who otherwise act like perfect angels at home. :lol:
     
  5. Prancer

    Prancer True Fan of the GOAT Staff Member

    39,778
    8,391
    113
    From the article:

    She insists that his two previous scrapes with police ended without serious incident because the police who responded were specially trained to deal with children in crisis situations.

    And proper training, she says, is what she would like to see come out of this situation. “I do want them to get training ... for crisis situations with children. I don’t think it’s right for an 8-year-old to get pepper-sprayed.”
     
  6. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    Because all scrapes with police are the same and are always expected to have the same outcome. Got it. Was the kid armed with a sharp, pointy object during those incidents as well, I wonder.
     
  7. Aceon6

    Aceon6 Hopping mad

    7,389
    1,834
    113
    FWIW, Granny and I were talking about the 50s and early 60s. I think a lot of it was the WWII influence. Nearly every adult had gone through similar experiences from the Depression through the end of the 40s, so it makes sense to me that they would be doing similar things. There are jokes about the Eisenhower years being the cookie-cutter years.

    I agree, by the 70s, things were very different, even in my little corner.
     
  8. Prancer

    Prancer True Fan of the GOAT Staff Member

    39,778
    8,391
    113
    She does not know if the outcome would have been the same; you can't prove something that didn't occur. OTOH, you can't prove that the outcome wouldn't have been different, either, so it's rather pointless to think that the outcome is the issue.

    Would police officers who have been trained in handling crises involving children be more effective at managing crises involving children? That is the question--or one of them.
     
  9. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    Which makes her entire point, well pointless. She seems to be pre-occupied with the use of pepper spray which is of course, an outcome.

    The police officers in this case managed the crisis effectively with minimal harm to the child and to themselves.
     
  10. Karina1974

    Karina1974 Well-Known Member

    2,711
    277
    83
    I was actually, by extension, my experience as well with how my parents raised me. They were 37 and 35 by the time I was born in 1974, so they themselves were raised by parents who experienced the Depression (my youngest gp was 17 when it started), and my mother is old enough to remember the war years (she's the older of the two) so their priorities were very different as far as what is and what isn't important in life. For example, you spend what $$ you have on things that you need, not merely on things you want. Try telling that to people today, though... in spite of what's gone on in the past few years with the economy, there are many who will never get that concept.
     
  11. Grannyfan

    Grannyfan Active Member

    919
    126
    43
    Exactly. One poster made the point that not every part of even our little corner was the same for all children, and that is true.
     
  12. Prancer

    Prancer True Fan of the GOAT Staff Member

    39,778
    8,391
    113
    I was a late life baby. My parents went through the Depression and WWII. It still didn't make them like all the other parents, and they certainly didn't parent anything like my husband's parents, who also went through the Depression and WWII. Or like my friends' older parents, either.

    But again, it's quite possible that it's just me.

    I must say, however, that if the children of the 50s were so well-behaved, where did all those hippies and draft dodgers come from in the 1960s?

    I would call that a method, myself, rather than an outcome.

    Are there other methods that could have been used? Is this considered the proper standard of care when dealing with a dangerous juvenile?

    I have no idea. To me, it's preferable to tackling him (which I said earlier in this thread), but whether that it actually the case, I don't know. I'm not in law enforcement and don't know what standards or methods are considered most effective in such situations.

    Regardless, I think that having police officers with training in child crisis management would be preferable in dealing with situations involving children in crisis. I don't think any reasonable person would disagree with that. That's what she is asking for; her motivation for asking does not negate the value (or lack) of her request. Whether such a thing is feasible or not, I don't know.
     
  13. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    The child having been pepper sprayed is an outcome as well.

    You are an intelligent person. I am sure you could speculate on some options and their feasibility and safety.
    Again, what other options were there that would have been better? It is also assumed that that was the first thing they tried. Perhaps they tried other, less invasive methods and failed.

    Has there been any research that actually supports any of this? Sometimes things that seem like common sense to most don't hold up to scrutiny.
     
  14. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

    30,765
    5,030
    113
    International Association of Chiefs of Police Summit of 2009 Page 2 indicates that the association believes responding to children is different, than responding to adults
    If this group believes that there are interventions that are different for children vs. adults, is it unreasonable for the mother to ask for education? I don't agree with the way she has gone about it, but it does seem reasonable to ask for it. Maybe pepper spray was appropriate, maybe not. But is it the national accepted standard for these cases? I don't know. And without making training available and then evaluating the outcomes we won't know. There has to be a starting point in order to evaluate if a training program makes a difference.
    ETAThe summit report was to include information
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2011
  15. Badams

    Badams Well-Known Member

    5,121
    1,311
    113
    At what point do we teach children to take responsibility for their own actions rather than blame parents, teachers, cops, society... one day this child will be grown, and he will be expected to act accordingly. But if he's never taught, who do we blame when he acts out as an adult? Are ADD/ADHD/ODD acceptable excuses then? I'm seriously asking.
     
  16. Prancer

    Prancer True Fan of the GOAT Staff Member

    39,778
    8,391
    113
    I don't find speculation particularly useful when I know little to nothing about a subjest. I don't find the speculation of those likewise informed to be particularly valuable, either.

    Indeed. But at least we seem to agree that this would at least appear--speaking speculatively, of course--to be common sense.

    Is there any research that actually supports pepper spray as the most effective way to take down an armed eight year old? You look for studies that support your position and I'll look for studies that support mine.

    The kid attends a special school for kids with behavioral problems, and he was just pepper sprayed by the cops. Apparently there are people who don't consider his behavior either acceptable or excused. At what point do we say that there ARE lessons being taught here?

    He is eight years old. By definition, he has a lot of learning to do.
     
  17. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    Then you find most of the content of this board rather useless. But if you'd like an expert opinion, you may want to read Kasey's post upthread--someone who provided psychiatric health care to children. Post #41 on this thread.

    I was under the impression that you found the use of pepper spray appropriate. Was I wrong? If I am, what would be the alternatives? Yes, I am inviting you to speculate. It can't be that novel of an experience.
     
  18. Prancer

    Prancer True Fan of the GOAT Staff Member

    39,778
    8,391
    113
    May I ask what part of Kasey's post contradicted anything that I have said? Perhaps you would like to read the post I made preceding that one?

    I said--more than once--that I thought the use of pepper spray was a better alternative than tackling the child. I have no standing to say whether it was appropriate or not.

    I do not know what other alternatives are available to the police, nor do I know the details of the situation the police actually dealt with. Did he threaten the police with the stick or did he merely have it in his hands--or did he, as he says, drop it immediately? Unlikely, but possible. Was he an immediate physical threat to officers or to someone else, or were other people safely out of the way? How did the police officers approach him and did they try anything else? What is SOP for police officers in situations involving elementary school-aged children threatening violence? What alternative methods might a police officer trained to handle children in crisis have used, if any?

    To me, the most obvious alternative would be the contain him and let him wear himself down; that's what I did with my kids when they had tantrums. And you are going to say "But what if they couldn't/he was a threat/he tried to attack/they didn't have time to hold out/etc., etc" which is exactly why I find speculation based on such little information to be worse than useless. It's an excuse to indulge in assumption.
     
  19. Aceon6

    Aceon6 Hopping mad

    7,389
    1,834
    113
    Personally, I wasn't all that well behaved, I just got very good at behaving in public and making sure my parents didn't find out about anything. By the late 60s/early 70s, I was in college and found out about choices.
     
  20. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    :huh: I didn't say her post contradicted or confirmed anything you said. I said this is an expert opinion because you said you didn't care for speculation coming from non-experts.


    I agree--it sounded like the better alternative. However, I am not sure what would be another, better way (or what the mother in the case considers a better way).
    Right, that was my question too. I am curious to find out what other ways, if any are out there.
    Well, if he did drop the weapon, it's one thing. But if he didn't, I am not sure what containing means. Isolate him and keep him alone? If so, for how long? And why would that be a better alternative, if you are saying it's better.

    And again, so much of the content of this board is speculation coming from non-experts and a lot of us here indulge in assumption. A lot. Why is this news?
     
  21. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

    10,297
    2,249
    113
    I don't have medical knowledge about the effects of pepper spray, but I know that in my country every month several adults are hospitalised for severe respiratory problems and burns resulting from pepper gas. It is considered very dangerous for children and possibly fatal in case of asthma.

    I agree with you that it is very difficult for untrained adults to restrain a child having a crisis. However hopefully several trained policemen would be able to take a stick away from an 8-year-old without getting injured or causing him more harm than pepper spray could cause.
     
  22. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

    236
    26
    0
    I find that Prancer is speculating more than IceAlisa is.
     
  23. Prancer

    Prancer True Fan of the GOAT Staff Member

    39,778
    8,391
    113
    I have no idea what you are trying to say anywhere in this post. Kasey's post about being injured while controlling enraged children has no relevance to my refusal to speculate about what should have been done with this child by the police, I just said that I don't know what alternatives are considered best in law enforcement in such situations (and clearly neither do you), and what other posters do or do not do on the board is irrelevant to whether I do it or not.
     
  24. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    Basically, I've been trying to say for several posts now that

    a) people speculate a lot on this board, in fact, most of the time so I wasn't sure why the concept was so strange to you, and

    b) since you kept repeating how you don't like speculation and opinion of non-experts and complained how it's worse than useless, so I directed your attention to an opinion of an expert or at least someone with experience. Perhaps you would consider it useful and perhaps (but not by any means for certain) the situation she described that required "take downs" was recreated in the current incident.
     
  25. Prancer

    Prancer True Fan of the GOAT Staff Member

    39,778
    8,391
    113
    The concept isn't at all strange to me. What does the fact that "people" speculate on this board have to do with whether I do it or not? Is it there some sort of board speculation requirement I am not aware of?

    Here is what I said:

    I said that *I* do not know enough about the issue to speculate on it, and that I find the speculations of people who do not know --which would be PEOPLE LIKE ME--to be less than valuable.

    Are we clear now? Because this is massively tedious and even more pointless than most such conversations.
     
  26. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    You are right, this IS tedious. Fine, don't speculate if it's so distasteful to you.
     
  27. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

    24,164
    4,603
    113
    I wasn't aware it could be fatal. I do know some people who've been sprayed with it by accident, and unbelievably painful is usually how it's described.
     
  28. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    So can an accidental or deliberate stabbing with a sharp wooden object.

    Anything can trigger a severe allergic reaction, anaphylaxis or an asthma attack, including pepper spray.
     
    Badams and (deleted member) like this.
  29. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

    3,930
    1,496
    113
  30. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,840
    5,366
    113
    I am not familiar with squirrel behavior but do they usually chase people? If not, perhaps his concern with the squirrel being rabid is justified?