Police Pepper Spray 8 Yr Old

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by skaternum, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    The boy was armed with a sharp, pointy piece of wood. Why should the police officer risk injury to himself or the boy if they could use pepper spray? Plus said 8 year old doesn't look like a delicate flower.
     
  2. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    Easily? Are you sure? Have you ever tried to restrain an enraged kid who has an emotional or behavioral disorder?

    When I was volunteering in the clinic at my kids' elementary school, there was a little boy in first grade who used to pitch massive fits. He was a slight little thing and weighed maybe 30 pounds. It took six adults to pick him up and carry him to the office one day, and I ended up having to clean wounds on five of those adults; one had to leave to get stitches. The kid was covered with bruises, although it's hard to say how many were from rough handling and how many were from what he was doing before he was restrained. That was the worst day, but it was far from the only day. And he didn't even have a diagnosed disorder, if he had a disorder at all.

    Many years ago, I taught a class for teachers who worked with emotionally and behaviorally disturbed children. They all had the scars--literal and emotional--to show for it. Some of those little kids are psychotic, and like psychotic adults, they have strength way above what their size would indicate when they are in psychosis. And all of the kids, because they are disturbed, have completely different emotional responses to situations involving other people than do most children. Most children will respond to adult authority; some will fight adults to defend themselves. But a handful of these kids actually want to hurt somebody and have no fear at all about facing down an adult because they have already figured out that adults--most of them, anyway--don't want to hurt them.

    I actually think pepper spray would be better for the kid than trying to tackle him and wrestle him down. He is far more likely to get hurt that way, and so are the police officers.
     
  3. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I've heard stories from mental health care providers of 90 lbs patients picking up and throwing a four poster metal bed like it was nothing. Adrenaline is a powerful thing.
     
  4. Flatfoote

    Flatfoote Active Member

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    Re: the kid's mother saying he doesn't act like that at home. She could be like the mother a friend of mine describes on another board. She recently said this in one of her posts: At one time her younger one was kicked out of school for being violent and she said "well, you are pushing his buttons, what do you expect, just let him have his way and this won't happen." No wonder some kids have meltdowns at school they wouldn't have at home (I say "some" kids in recognition of some posts here that have shared thier personal experiences that their kid is indeed a different child at school than at home).
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  5. millyskate

    millyskate Well-Known Member

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    ITA. I did some work experience at a center for disabled children, and there was a 6 year old so strong that all adults would stand well clear when he had fits and became angry.

    And Flatfoote, I also agree with your theory. If the child threatens a tantrum each time he doesn't get his way, it could well be the mother avoids trouble by yielding to his every whim.
     
  6. DianeO

    DianeO New Member

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    Exactly. That's the sad thing about society today. So many (not all) parents are just looking for a diagnosis to take the blame off of them for their poor or lazy parenting. I teach kindergarten and have seen my share of kids with behavior problems. I'd say there was really only 1 boy at that age that IMO needed a real diagnosis and could not help himself or control his actions (pretty sure he was autistic but the parents wouldn't accept that). The rest of them were spoiled rotten, never taught any manners, or just sought tons of attention they probably never got at home. "ODD" is one of the most ridiculous things they have ever come up with. Oppositional Defiant Disorder pretty much screams "I've never taught my child any respect for authority", yet people get away with it and expect sympathy.
     
  7. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    DianeO -I respect what you have seen in the classroom, but have you ever lived with a child diagnosed as ODD? Seeing them in a classroom setting is different than living day in and day out with a child with a disorder. Sure some of the kids are "spoiled brats" as you call them, but some are truly ill.
    Having worked in a setting with special needs children, some austism some with true mental health issues and some who have had severe brain trauma, they can react differently in every setting.

    Again, I am not saying that there is or is not parenting behaviors that play into this, but we should also look at the possibility that this child has mental health issues.

    like others in this thread, I think that pepper spray was a kinder effort at restraining him and prevent further injury to other classmates and the staff. I am not quoting him directly as I can not remember the exact words, but the amount of rage directed at the school and the classroom teachers/students was astonishing.
     
  8. Karina1974

    Karina1974 Well-Known Member

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    We had an incident over the weekend around here, where a couple of teen boys got into a fight at a roller rink (thankfully not the one I skate at!) that escalated outside. The cops were called, split up the boys, and one, 13 years old, tried going after a few kids in the crowd, as well as the boy he had been fighting with. He ended up getting Tasered. So, now there's an uproar about that... :rolleyes: "he was only 13!!!" - Yeah... when my brothers were both 13-14, they were already pushing 6' tall, so...

    And, yes, I think he deserved what he got. I was raised with the notion of behaving myself and doing what I was told by whoever is in charge, or I would suffer the consequences.
     
  9. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Yeah, I've restrained a third-grader having a violent episode, and honestly it's easier to break up a dog fight. (Without going into confidential detail, I will say that was NOT a child who was a spoiled brat acting out, he had some serious reasons beyond his control for his behavior. Why his parents/our company didn't think a specialist aide was necessary I don't know.)

    And as someone mentioned upthread, you TOUCH a kid, you are putting yourself at huge risk. I only resorted to physical restraint in the above example because it involved another child and a bladed object. Our male employees, all perfectly nice and criminally background-checked to boot, were told to NEVER hug any child or let them sit so they were touching or heaven forbid sit on their lap. When it's a kid, if I'm a cop, I'll go for hands-off, too.

    numbers123--the thing is, if a child is THAT difficult, I really don't care if they have a disorder or not. In fact, especially if it's a condition where discipline's not going to fix a chemical problem, if they become that disruptive they need a full-time aide or to be removed and placed in a controlled situation. If they're dangerous, violent, or simply so disruptive they're having a major negative impact on the other children then no, their need to feel and be treated 'normally' should not be taken into consideration. Whatever happened to the good of the majority outweighing the good of one person who by definition isn't normal?
     
  10. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    I agree - that's why the place I used to work at existed. I just don't think we should jump to the conclusion that all kids who act out or are a threat in terms of violence are because the parents do not discipline them.
     
  11. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    I used to work as a nurse in a locked down child/adolescent psych facility (and NO, will NEVER do psych nursing again). Even a 5 year old with behavior issues can cause damage, serious and possibly permanent injury to an adult who isn't careful. When we would have to do a "take down", we would have just as many people for a child as an adolescent usually. While I worked there, I was bitten, scratched, stabbed in the thigh with a pencil, threatened with a knife a kid smuggled back from the kitchen and narrowly avoided being bashed in the head by a 3-hole puncher flung by a pissed off 10 year old. Pepper spray, taser, whatever the hell is required on someone that out of control and threatening receives my blessing. Just because you go into some form of public service work (i.e., police, health care, fire department, paramedic, etc) does not mean you are signing a consent to be a freaking pinata. Personally, I get tired of my "mature" adult patients thinking it is ok to beat the sh!t out of me if they want to; I sure as hell don't want to tolerate it from a rugrat ever again.
     
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  12. Aceon6

    Aceon6 Get off my lawn

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    Hear ya. I worked in administration at a hospital with a locked adolescent unit. Every male member of my staff was trained in take downs as our offices were adjacent to the unit. It would take 6-8 people to get a kid down and in a burrito, so my guys got paged in on most of them. When they came back, it wasn't unusual to spend some time tending to scratches and bites.
     
  13. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I have been hospitalised for trying to intervene with an angry 6 year old. His parents didn't believe he had issues at all, even when shown video tapes, they still believed, "He's just a kid and kids are naughty sometimes." :mad:

    Ziggy, it definitely sounds like you have no experience at all with special needs or emotionally disturbed children. Children with emotional and behavioural problems can do a lot of damage.
     
  14. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    :respec:
     
  15. Capella

    Capella Guest

    I've fortunately never had to wrestle with a raging 8-year-old. I have, however, dealt with an enraged 7-pound cat. Should be a fair fight, no, with me having like 20x weight advantage? Not so much. :shuffle:

    After watching the video of this kid talking about wanting to hurt his teachers, it reminded me of the play/movie "The Bad Seed." :shudder:
     
  16. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    You would have only tazered the parents? I'd have been pulling out my gun and making SURE they could never reproduce again...

    Not on your life! The kid had a stick and was threatening to kill people. I wouldn't have been wanting to have any physical contact with him at all. And if he was already in a rage, can you imagine what might have happened if the police had tried picking him up!?!??! In a rage, he's probably physically stronger than normal, and not likely to have stopped by the police telling him "no".

    I fully support the actions of the police on this one.

    *

    And this talk that he has "disorders/problems/issues" is carp, IMO. Actually, I believe that nowadays a lot of the ADD/ADHD/ODD etc is a load of bullsh!t. I'm not saying they aren't genuine problems - I'm sure there are kids out there that genuinely have some messed up wiring in their brains that causes this.

    But mostly I believe that these "disorders" are being used as an excuse for poor parenting.
     
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  17. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Or bad teaching.
     
  18. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    It's not the teachers' responsibility to raise the child.

    This is one of the things that really, really, really peeves me off about modern society - teachers are now expected by parents to raise the child, to teach them common sense and basic life skills and self-discipline, as well as everything else. It's no wonder teachers are stressed. Do you know how much they are forced by the state departments to cram into their lessons? I took teaching for two years at university (I left because I was sick of having to find curriculm justifications for putting out playdough in a preschool.) The curriculm document for my state is almost more than half made up of things that PARENTS should be giving their children.
     
  19. PrincessLeppard

    PrincessLeppard Pink Bitch

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    Angel is a teacher. :) However, I agree with you. If a kid had ADHD, etc, they need to learn coping skills. Most of my students with these diagnoses do not, and prefer to use it as an excuse.
     
  20. Aceon6

    Aceon6 Get off my lawn

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    Agree. It takes a tremendous amount of dedication and patience from the parents to 1) be fully committed to the kid's educational plan and 2) apply the same reinforcements at home that are being used at school. Frankly, a lot of parents just aren't up to the task and it really hurts the kid's progress.
     
  21. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    I teach Pre-Kindergarten and you would not believe how some of the children in my class behave. They spit in other kid's faces, they pinch, they knock them down like bowling pins, they tease, they exclude other kids etc. I try the best I can but I'm not the parents and when the parents don't teach manners......

    I had a four year old tell another "if you're white you can come to my house" Sometimes I'm really scared for the future.
     
  22. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    you all talk as if it is easy to parent a child with ADHD or other disorder. It is not. You can go to all the IEPs, put into action the treatment plans laid out by the child's doctor and therapist, you can tackle the job of eliminating all processed foods/artificial dyes, etc. You can provide medications, observe them taking the medications, send the appropriate medications with all the appropriate releases/permission slips and doctor's name/number. And still the behavior happens. And once they become 8 or 9, they begin to learn how to pocket medications and not take them, even if you stand there for 15 minutes after they supposedly put them in their mouth.

    The parent can do their best to parent and yet the child still acts out or gets into legal trouble. My mantra is and always will be - you do not have the ability to control your child's behavior you can provide guidance and set down expectations, but they still choose their own actions.

    I do not know how this mom parents her child, I do not know what mental illness issues this child has, I do not know if the mother's behavior plays into the child's action. What I do know is that there are situations that might be exactly as some of you think - it is the parent's fault for not parenting, but I also know that there are some children who are struggling even with all the medical, pyschological, pharmacology, parenting, and teacher/parent collaboration. Do not lump all parents in the same - they spoiled their children category.
     
  23. rjblue

    rjblue Re-registered User

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    Exactly how does a parent teach a child at home, with just parents and sibling, who is:

    Polite at mealtimes at home.
    Responsible with their belongings
    Kind to their siblings
    Loving and respectful of their parents
    And prompt at doing chores

    ....the different set of behaviors they need when they are in a class with 25 other children their own age, and one adult who wants them all to behave and respond the same. The coping skills needed to be in a class, with a teacher who doesn't like you, and children who behave in all kinds of different ways than your family does, are so different from what they need at home.

    The school does have to teach my son appropriate classroom behavior. I can't simulate it at home, and I'm tired of teachers expecting me to ground or punish my son, and make him cry and feel like a failure at home, because they can't keep him quiet enough at school.

    eta- Good teachers, who pay attention to the individual nature of each child, have always had no problem with my son. He's about a foot taller than many boys his age, and about 2 years younger in maturity. Not a good combination for teachers who make assumptions based on appearance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
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  24. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I'm a special education teacher. I don't think a teacher's job is to parent a child, but I think a teacher's job is to do everything possible to teach the children in his or her class, which means adapting lesson plans, and differentiation. I have many more debates with teachers than with parents when it comes to this. Teachers think it's more work, and it is, but it is also their job. Teachers need to learn different strategies, and not just teach to the "good" kids.

    The parents I work with are mostly willing to learn strategies for working with their kids, the teachers are usually not, because they think it's the parent's job. I disagree. Many, many times the kids ARE misbehaving just a school, a lot of the time it's not because of ADHD (though many teachers diagnose this for any kids they can't deal with) but because they are easily distracted, have auditory processing problems, or have learning problems.

    Part of my work involves assessing, and observations at schools more often than not show teaching problems, rather than problems with the students. Quite often, the kid really is different at home, and they're almost always different in their sessions with me. Sure, I also give the student and parents strategies to work better in their school classroom, but they need the teacher's help, rather than the teacher just thinking it's too much effort, the kid need medication or blaming it on bad parenting. Sometimes it is those things, and sometimes it's the teacher.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
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  25. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    And therein lies the rub with the idea that poor parenting is the excuse for everything, too. Everyone who is breathing is a work in progress and that includes children. Some children are going to have a much harder time developing those coping skills than others will--even if they have the best parents in the world. Of course some parents aren't going to do a good job; people are what they are and don't become magically better than that by virtue of becoming a parent. I know many people think that that used to happen and parents used to be all responsible and disciplined and all, but that's just :rofl:. Yeah, I had good parents, too; it sure doesn't mean that everyone else did.

    The best parents in the world can have rotten kids; the worst parents in the world can have great kids. It's not as easy as "Do WXY and you will get Z." For one thing, the definition of "good parenting" varies a great deal between individuals and appears to be mostly a matter of "this is how *I* think it should be done and my kids are almost perfect or would be if I had any."
     
  26. rjblue

    rjblue Re-registered User

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    Also- most parents who've raised more than one child will tell you that what works for one of their children is the wrong strategy for another. Yes, you have to be consistent for good discipline, but, for example, one of my daughters had to know that if she misbehaved, bad things would happen. My son has to know that if he does what I want, good things will happen. I could reward her all I wanted, but she wouldn't try any harder the next time. With my son, if he is told even once that he's pleased me, he'll make an effort to do whatever it is every time. But almost all teachers are negative reinforcers, because it works for the majority of students.
     
  27. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    Sure, and just as all kids cannot be raised by the recipe, so too not all parents are psychologically suited to raise all kids, either. Just because you give birth to a child does not mean that you are necessarily the best person to parent a particular child, even if you may be the best person to raise other children.

    Most of us turn out okay anyway.
     
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  28. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    To me it seems if a teacher tells a parent a child is behaving inappropriately, then the parent should follow-up at home with the child to clearly explain what the child did wrong, and reinforce why such behavior is inappropriate. If a parent doesn't do that, the parent on some level is sending the message the child doesn't have to listen to the teacher because the parent won't enforce any standards set by the teacher.

    It's one thing if a parent disagrees with the standards set by a teacher, but if that isn't the issue, teachers can't do everything by themselves--they need parents to back them up.

    If a child cannot act appropriately in a social setting, that's something parents need to address. And an important way parents can do that is by backing up the teachers who are trying to enforce discipline in a social setting. Simply saying that's the teachers job and a parent has no obligation because they don't have a social setting at home only makes it harder for the child to behave appropriately in social settings, and that's not to anyone's benefit.
     
  29. rjblue

    rjblue Re-registered User

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    My son gets foolish (he's immature for his age) and acts like the class clown. He's often not allowed to play at recess or noon, because he has to stay in. He has 2 hours on the bus each day, and an hour of homework. Punishing him at home just sucks the last positive thing out of his life. I think he gets punished enough. It's not like he's agressive or dishonest, he gets punished for acting like a little boy.
    We spent all fall talking to him, and reinforcing the teacher's requests to improve his behavior, and he nearly became seriously depressed. He felt like such a failure. We recognised the harm we were doing and started only talking to him about the good things he does at home, and our happy little son came back.
     
  30. Capella

    Capella Guest

    For those of us who went to school in the days before people were diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, etc., how did we get through life? I don't remember everything from when I was 5, 6, 7, etc., but I don't think those "designations" were used, and yet I don't remember any major issues with classmates. Maybe I blocked it out.