Plushenko

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by lala, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Why such hatred against Plushenko? Here is a poster who loves Plushenko and expresses it. No need to start a debate here. There are plenty of hateful threads about Plushenko that you will enjoy posting in.
  2. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    What is hateful about my post :eek::confused:? I have stated before in this thread that I too respect and like Evgeni. What I wrote now is not hateful at all, it's just the truth. Probably I shouldn't have written that, but I admit that sometimes I grow tired of some people hyping one skater like some god who is superior to all others. It really seems belittling of other skaters. I know that Plushenko is a legend with many titles and medals, a really special skater with special energetics and his own kind of artistry (I personally think so too), probably the best jumper ever, and so on. But, despite all his titles and his status, there are skaters who are no less special than him - just in other ways. Dick Button, Kurt Browning (even though he didn't manage to win an Olympic medal), Alexei Yagudin (yes, yes), John Curry are no lesser legends than Plushenko - each in their own way. As for things that some skaters can do even better than Evgeni - Patrick Chan is not my favorite skater, but his skating skills are clearly better than Evgeni's. And that's not even Plushenko's fault - at the time when he learned to skate there were no such requirements for skating skills as there are now. That's just the way it is. So, there are other skaters who have better skating skills than Evgeni, who can spin better than him, who can jump with less preparation than him, or who are more artistically refined than him (the last one is imho, of course).

    It's okay to love one skater above all others and to express your appreciation for that skater as much as you want, but I think there are some limits where you turn that skater into some kind of inhuman God who is superior to all others. I, for instance, have never hidden that I love Stephane Lambiel more than any other skater, that his artistry speaks to me more than any other (current) skater's artistry, and, that to me, there is no one like him, but I have never said that he is the most artistic skater ever like some other fans say. I know that there have been skaters who were probably even greater artists than him, skaters who are just as great at performing than him, even better in some ways, that there are still skaters (even among the current ones) who can do things and styles that he can't do, and so on. So, it's sometimes difficult for me to understand those people who worship and praise only one skater like some kind of deity.

    I was not going to write any of that here, but your comment provoked me to do it. Sorry.
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  3. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I was joking, my friend ;) But look at this.

    If you look at Japan Open's protocol:

    Skating skill: Takahashi 9.11 Evgeni 8.75 Jeff 8.71 Chan 8.61
    Stsq: Takahashi 5.6, Chan 5.5, Evgeni 5.3, Jeff 5.3 (means both are 3rd)
    Chsq: Jeff 3.6, Takahashi 3.4, Evgeni 3.3, Chan 3.2

    In Sheffield:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2012/ec2012_protocol.pdf
    Look at the protocols!

    If you miss this article:
    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120525&content_id=32207752&vkey=ice_news
    Camerlengo:
    "Plushenko has everything he needs to compete at the same level as the others. He can definitely fight for medals."
    Evgeni is really capable. He surprised me with his ability and skills as a skater. I'd ask, 'Why haven't you done that before?' He did so many things, but in a competitive program you have to consider all the time the elements, the jumps, the timing, the stamina, many things. So you cannot really skate a program using all of your skills, [including] all the steps you can do and all of the other things you can do on the ice. Because you have to think, 'If I overload the program, I'm not able to do the elements.' And in the end, the elements give you the results.

    Icenetwork.com: Plushenko has been criticized for a lack of transitions between elements.

    Camerlengo: That's what we worked on. We worked on having full transitions; we wanted to do that. I said, 'I want to see you doing something that is not crossovers.' And we went for that, and he was really, really positive. He feels so motivated; he wants to show everybody, 'I can do this, I can do that.' Why he didn't do more of that before, I cannot say, but his [winning] history makes him right. It seemed to have hurt him a bit at the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, though.

    In Vancouver, he lost the Olympics [due to] one jump. (Evan Lysacek defeated Plushenko by 1.31 points.) He didn't perform a triple-double-double combination; he did triple-double. If he had done triple-double-double, he might be Olympic champion. So history proves him right. People criticize him, but he always did the same thing in competition and he has always been rewarded. So in the end, he's right.

    Icenetwork.com: If Plushenko does compete at the world championships again, he'll have to compete against Patrick Chan, Daisuke Takahashi.

    Camerlengo: He can do it. Of course, he is 30 years old and he's going to be the oldest one of the whole group, but he has good technique and such skills when he skates. I think he can make it. I think he can go and show up there with the program and compete, for sure. He won [2012] Europeans with a big score.

    He has everything he needs to compete at the same level with all the others and even more, because he has such amazing experience, and he has a charisma that is so amazing on the ice. Already, when he is just standing on the ice, the people watch him so [intently].








    Snow:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufh-ollbPMQ
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  4. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this is a hostile place for Evgeni..but he is amazing. Some people forgot that.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  5. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Hmmm, there is a difference between suggesting Plushenko is not the best at everything and writing a hate letter - I don't feel lauravv meant any disrespect and was just stating her opinion which was hardly scathing

    Moreover, I do believe that the better fan is the one who is lucid enough to recognize both their favorite's strengths and weaknesses - and all skaters have both - and accept both sides of said skater, warts and all, instead of putting blinders on and be in love with their own fabricated image of said skater, dismissing any criticism. After all, the skaters themselves need to be open to (constructive) criticism because that's by listening to those that they'll know where they need to work and improve

    Also, no one can be the best at everything, even if they work hard to get as close to it as possible, if only because, while some qualities can be improved upon, others can't really be learnt: you either have them or you don't. Chan's skating skills are a good example of that because, while the others can work and improve theirs and catch up to some extent, there is just something about the way he floats on the ice, a purity to his skating that only someone with a similar gift could hope to emulate

    Likewise, Plushenko is a man of many talents, one of which is huge charisma, and that's another thing that cannot be taught and that he will always have more than a lot of the other skaters. Similarily though, Chan will always be that bit lighter on the ice; Lambiel and Takahashi will probably always be more artists, craftsmen than him. Recognizing this, however, doesn't take anything away from Plushenko as an athlete or lessen his accomplishments, which everybody knows are among the greatest in modern skating in terms of results
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  6. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    What is the art and what is the art on ice? What do you think? This is not an attack, I'm curious. :) ( I have never wrote, Plushy is the best in every respect.)
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  7. anna1506

    anna1506 New Member

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    Lala truly loves Plushenko. Do not disturb her to love him! Thanks to her we have new information about Plush and we can learn a lot more. ;) :shuffle:
  8. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Why should I think this is an attack ? :) You have every right to ask a question ;)

    I don't think it's something you can slap a definition on: you don't define art - you recognize it when you see it, and different people might see different things. But at any rate, art should be a form of exploration and transcendance

    Trying to be more precise, as regards figure skating, artistry definitely has to do with the relation between the skater and the music, which is similar to that found in dance. It can take different forms, skaters may have different approaches to it, but the result will always be a form of transcendance of the music as translated both on the ice and towards the public
  9. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Okay, if you want - That proves nothing. First of all, Chan had one of the worst (if not the worst) skates of his career at Japan Open, so it's only natural that his SS and STsq marks were also worse than usual there. As for Sheffield - Chan didn't compete there. But if you would compare the marks he got for some of his best skates with Evgeni's marks for his (recent) best skates, the picture would be a bit different. Also, I think you are quite naive to believe in all marks given by judges at all competitions. If you would be more interested in figure skating in general, not just in Plushenko, and if you would read even just this forum more, then you would know that very few people here (including those who really know a lot about figure skating) believe so blindly in all judge's marks like you do. Most people who know about figure skating believe in what they see more than in judge's marks (I am not saying that judges know less, just that they don't always mark accordingly for different reasons). And Chan's skating skills is something that is really visible - even on TV, and even to people who are not experts. So, it's a common knowledge in figure skating world that his overall skating skills are really special, and like no other male single skater's - even people who don't like him admit that. Marks in some separate competition are not going to change that reality.

    But it seems that you are so focused only on Evgeni that you just don't want to see and understand. A few years ago I too was not able to really notice and understand many things, like the difference in skating skills of different skaters. But then I came to the point where I really wanted to see and to understand things about skating outside of just enjoying my favorite skaters performances and artistry. Now I still don't notice and understand everything, but I understand a lot more than before. I wish to you to also come to that point one day where you will want to understand things about figure skating more, and to appreciate also what other skaters do, not just admire and gush about Evgeni.


    And I think that you didn't read my posts carefully. I wrote in my last post and others that I think that Plushenko has artistry too. That I mentioned his jumps (because he really is the best, or one of the best jumpers in figure skating history - will you really deny that?) doesn't mean I think that he doesn't have anything else. As I said, he has his own kind of artistry, he is a great and very charismatic performer, and he can do moves and even some steps that are his trademark, and that no one else can do/does. He is also quite a good spinner, although I would say that his spins are not the most beautiful.

    As for the "young girl" - probably I am at my 31, but that also means nothing. No, actually, when Evgeni beat Stephane at 2006 Olympics, I was not Stephane's fan yet, and then I was so impressed by Evgeni's skates that I didn't think even for one moment that some other skater (Stephane or someone else) should have won. I was really sad that Stephane had such unsuccessful skates at 2010 Olympics - most of all that he didn't manage to perform his beautiful 'Traviata' as well as he could at his last competition. I knew that he had more complicated choreography and more transitions in his programs than Evgeni, but that didn't make me think that he should have placed higher than Evgeni. He just didn't do well enough to get a medal, but Evgeni did - fair and square.


    What are you trying to prove? That Evgeni is indeed superior to all other skaters, and that he is the best in everything? I think even he doesn't think that. He knows his strong sides, and he also knows the things that he has to improve. That's why he is doing all of this. But still there are some limits to how much a skater can improve at that age. In his new LP he has improved in some things, but not to the level of Patrick Chan. I don't think that it is possible now for him - it's too late.

    Also, that he worked on those things with Camerlengo doesn't mean that he is really doing all of them in his new programs - obviously Mishin likes to take some choreographic movements and transitions out from programs so that it would be easier for his skaters to jump. Most likely he has done it again. I believe that there are a lot of steps and things that Plushenko can do that he is not doing in his programs, but you know - what one really does is what counts, not what one can do. There are other skaters who really try to do everything in their competitive programs now - difficult jumps, steps, choreography, a lot of transitions. Evgeni tries now too, but a little less. He can't be blamed for that, because he wasn't taught that way, and it's much more difficult for him than it is for younger skaters who have been taught according to the new requirements. And, as he is a really respected skater with a huge reputation, what he is doing will probably be enough for judges to give him the marks that he needs, especially if he does all his jumps right, and other skaters don't.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
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  10. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I want to be careful..I don't want to attack anyone in this forum. :)

    Good definition. I think the art on ice : many emotions: passion,pain, fun, sadness etc..and so many genres : comedy, tragedy, satire,etc., and a variety of dances. I'm right?
    Well, if you know Plushenko's whole career, you can find examples of each emotion, genres, and many dances.

    Plushy is 15, and i think he is an enetertainer in this early age:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2st17-hWl_k "a form of transcendance of the music as translated both on the ice and towards the public" What do you think? :)
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Chan's skating skills were taught to him by the legendary Osbourne Colson, who himself was taught by the legendary Gus Lussi. Certainly Chan had talent, dedication, and discipline, and the way he's used the skills is unique to him, but Mr. Colson's lessons were available to many who chose not to take them or to dedicate themselves to that kind of mastery.
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  12. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Well said :)
  13. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Lauravvv :) OK. I just wanted to say Plushy isn't bad in SS. No more. :)
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  14. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Ah, sorry! Your post just made me realize that I wasn't precise enough in what I said about Chan. Of course talent is nothing but an annoying habit if there isn't relentless work behind it ;) But at equal amount of work, Chan has this little something in terms of skating skills that sets him apart. Of course, if he hadn't had a great formation and if he didn't work on it regularily, others WOULD catch up (or, if he hadn't been taught the basics correctly, he would be behind other skaters, regardless of his natural talent)
  15. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Well said, rayhaneh. Every skater brings something unique to the ice, if we look at all of them with an open and unbiased mind. For me, Plushenko's jumps are formidable, Patrick's skating skills, Lambiel's elegance, Daisuke's natural flamboyance, Kozuka's quietness and softness on ice... etc etc.

    Plushenko is truly a gladiator (as Kurt Browning called him). He will rise to the occasion when called.

    IMO, just because we have favourites and personal inclination to certain aspects of skating, that doesn't mean we have to look at our favourites' competitors as thy enemies if we truly enjoy skating for skating sake and not hooked on just personalities.
  16. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    But enough of Chan and back to Plushenko, since it's a thread about him and all that :D

    Well, I didn't feel like I was under attack, no worries ;)


    That's not what I mean - but like I said, it's difficult to put into words :) And I cannot tell you right away that your definition is right or wrong. It's your right to put emphasis on diversity as an aspect of artistry

    However, I can tell you what I observe in art, in all its forms: variety and art do not always go hand in hand - although both are not always mutually exclusive either. Many of the greatest painters, musicians, sculptors, etc usually excelled in one particular style and or in one particular theme, although there are a few, of course, who could tackle a larger spectrum with equal genius. Likewise, tackling the whole spectrum of human emotion doesn't make you an artist per se - but that doesn't disqualify you as an artist either. Those are two independant concepts

    I started watching ice skating more than a decade before Plushenko started skating so yes, I have followed his whole career ;)

    The problem with the way you present it is that it feels like you are making a definition based on what you think fits Plushenko (although you may not have meant it like that)


    Thank you for that video - it brought back nice memories ;)

    This was a fun exhibition. And you could have taken quite a few others - he has a great sense of humor, and he's always been one of the best entertainers out there. Certainly one of the funniest. And you could call his ability to entertain a form of art, when he is at his best moments - there's a real art in making people smile and laugh

    But I wouldn't call it transcendance of the music. It is great entertainment - but it doesn't make you touch, or at least have a glimpse at, something superior, which is what transcendance is about

    To give you a more concrete example, although that's only one aspect of what artistry in skating is about: what Plushenko has lacked,compared to a number of other skaters (I was mentioning Lambiel and Takahashi's names because to me, they are the strongest recent examples, but another person could probably also have gone with Jeffrey Buttle or Jeremy Abbott) is dedication to the music, particularily in his competitive programs. He has great musicality naturally. But we were just talking about how Chan had this natural talent in terms of skating skill but what put him above the rest is more than just this ability. This is exactly how I feel about Plushenko. He has artistic qualities, but he has chosen, throughout his career, to put the emphasis more on the technical content and chosen efficiency over musical interpretation - music is more a support for his programs, rather than the pivot around which he used to build his programs (I am, however, very curious to see what work he has done with Camerlengo because I suspect that it will have him take steps precisely towards greater precision of his program's architecture to fit the music)

    Which is FINE. At the end of the day it is a sport before it is an art - the general conscensus for greatness will always be the number of successes and no one in the recent generations of skaters can quite compare with Plushenko in that respect

    EXACTLY. Thank you for putting it so precisely and neatly - I wanted to say that but I cannot without taking too many detour and muddling things up. Sorry :p
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  17. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    But I didn't say that he has bad skating skills - just that there are skaters who have equally good, or even better SS. There is a big difference between that and saying that he has bad skating skills. I know Evgeni has good skating skills too.

    There is something that I want to say - not in regard to Plushenko, Chan, or any specific skater. You mentioned the step sequence levels from one competition as an example. But I am not sure if you realize what those levels mean. The level is given mostly for WHAT steps are done, and only partially for how well they are done. If some skater receives level 3 for his step sequence, it means that he either didn't do some step required for level 4 at all, or did one specific step incorrectly, not that he performed all of the sequence worse or with lesser skating skills than the skater who got level 4. When you look at the GOEs of different skaters, you can sometimes see that some skater with a level 4 step sequence got a lower GOE for it than another skater with a level 3 step sequence. It means that the overall skating skills and performance of the steps in the step sequence of the skater who got level 3 have been evaluated higher by judges than the overall skating skills and performance of the steps of the other skater who actually got level 4. So, level 3 doesn't mean that a skater has worse skating skills than someone who got level 4 - not to mention that skating skills are not evaluated just from step sequences. More knowledgeable people can correct me if I am wrong, but I think I am mostly right about this. I know that this was off-topic, but as you you yourself brought that up (step sequence levels), I wanted to comment on that.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  18. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I think only Dais and Plushy got 4 level of his step sequence, no one.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKEEuxPEP0U Plushy's steps in old system, montage, his steps were very difficoult, fast,interesting.




    rayhaneh

    [/QUOTE] I started watching ice skating more than a decade before Plushenko started skating so yes, I have followed his whole career ;)

    The problem with the way you present it is that it feels like you are making a definition based on what you think fits Plushenko[/QUOTE]

    No, i just wanted to say, is not only the "death on the ice" can be art.


    It's interesting, same music, Rigoletto
    Lambiel, in 2011 Opera on ice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6arEZgocsuQ from 1:35

    Plushy, in 2012 Opera on ice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWf5aEpUvPg ( It isn't an exhibition number of Plush, unlike Stef, he skated it only on that show)

    Which is more artistry? it's matter of taste. But I think both performances are really artistry, and entertaining, in own style.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  19. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    What do you mean by "death on the ice"? You mean drama - as opposed to something more light-hearted? In that case, I totally agree


    A-ha! Well, I had never seen either performance - it's very interesting that you managed to get them both skating in the same contexte (exhibition) on the same music

    Actually, it's a perfect illustration of what I was trying to explain in my previous post. Both performances are entertaining - that was never in question (and again, I really admire Plushenko as an entertainer, so that only confirms that). And you can prefer one or the other - it's a matter of taste, so neither choice is right or wrong

    But, in terms of choreographic structure, in terms of attention to details with respect to the nuances of the music, which is what I was talking about, in this particular instance, Lambiel's program is pretty vastly superior. Watching his program, you feel Plushenko has a rough frame but makes up things as he goes along. Maybe that's not true, but it lacks a sense of direction, of drive throughout his program: if you look at it closely, it is mostly a succession of technical elements, a couple of moments of musical interpretation (mostly in the upper corner after around 40 seconds after he started skating), and some arms movements, which are pretty generic in the steps sequence (and off the music in places). It doesn't change the fact that it's entertaining, and Plushenko can sell you a lot of things because he's got charisma by the bucketload, but there is no real choreography. On the other hand, with Lambiel, you can sense that everything is in place, and almost every nuance of the music is exploited, by a specific arm gesture, by a change of edge, etc, etc

    And that's (an important) part of what makes Lambiel the superior artist. Do I think Plushenko would be able to skate a choreography as complex as that of Lambiel? Definitely. The result would be different because they have different personalities, and I am don't think the register of movements Lambiel has is something that would come naturally to Plushenko - he'd have to learn but if he wanted to, I am pretty sure he could. But the fact remains that when it comes to crafting a program, Plushenko, on the face of what he's shown, is not on par with Lambiel

    But again, that does not mean that you should prefer Lambiel's program to Plushenko - THAT is completely a matter of taste
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  20. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    What are these discussion come from, am I in the wrong post? Apparently only people who are familiar with the rules can post here otherwise somebody will be very happy to give you a lesson or two.

    Can I still allow to say anything good about Plushenko without pointing out all his "weakness" or listing all the names who are better than Plushenko in one or another aspect? I mean apparently I can still say that his jumps are good (although maybe in the future this would also go to some other skaters), and I can still say he is kind of ultimate competitor. But no more apparently.

    I do not want to discuss how good Chan's SS or how good Lambiel's spins are, I do not recall any Plushenko's fans denies these facts. But can I still say that Plushenko's SS and spins are good (I do not use best here, just saying). Can I still say as a "whole package" Plushenko is good?

    As for artistry part, what can I say, Plushenko's art touches me but not Lambiel's or Dai's. I still recognize Lambiel and Dai are very artistic skaters but not my cup of tea. Does this mean that I do no understand Figure Skating at all, or better, I do not understand art? You cannot compare artistry, different styles provoke different feelings on different people. Can you say that Pablo Picasso is better than Vincent van Gogh (or vise visa, I do not care)?

    Sorry lala for my outburst here. And thanks for all the links or videos. I love the practice video of "snow", it is beautiful.
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  21. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    I also think pretty much everyone on this thread agrees that Plushenko is one of the greatest skaters of history - you know, just saying :lol: (Incidently, I also really like Plushenko but apparently, not enough to post here :D)

    I wasn't aware this was an Uber thread (I thought it was mostly to discuss his birthday show and then a different discussion ensued) - if it is my apologizes: I don't usually go on Uber threads, unless it is to share specific information I come across, precisely because I do not want to step on any toes or hurt people's sensitivities ;) I love a good debate though :D
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  22. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    No it is not really an uber fan post. Yes it is about his 30th birthday show but in the end end of arguing that he is no better in this or that than this or that skater. I am actually OK when you say that his SS or spins are not the best, although as I do not feel that lala is trying to convince other people that Plushenko is the best in every aspects, I do feel pointing these well known facts out is kind of mood killer.

    And I am not so happy about the talks regarding artistry here only because you stated your own opinions (of course there must be quite number of people agree with you on this) as a fact, which is not appropriate. The reason is simple, I have already pointed out in my post, you cannot compare Pablo Picasso and Vincent van Gogh. They have their different ways approaching artistry.
  23. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Thanks for all the video links! Ilia and Alexei still look great after all these years!

    (And, I have to say, ever since I saw the first incarnation of the "Four Kings" dance I have been dying to see it done with Kulik and Yagudin, to make it a REAL "Kings" routine.)

    And look! Plushy and Yags HUGGED! Is the apocalypse truly coming? :lol:

    I like how in the Four Kings segment Alexei looked like he forgot the steps, Ilia was watching Stephane and then started mimicking the throwing back of the head, and Stephane is totally rocking out.
  24. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    Yagudin indeed forgets his moves, he did not have enough time to practice (He almost missed his flight). And yes, Lambiel is the most rocked one here (and I seriously thought this is also true for the 4 kings number in general, I mean the ones they performed in the past). The most hilarious part about this particular one is that Plushy fell on his steps and then make fun of himself to the audience. They really have a lot of fun here.
  25. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Yaya! You are absolute right! Plushenko's art touches me, too.. Most of time I can't take off my eyes of him. Plus he has inspiring personality.

    This program is exhibition number of Stef. He skated in last year many times. Plush skated once, and probably won't skate it anymore. I don't think that he worked with it alot.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  26. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    ITA with everything you said, yaya. I don't understand why every Plushenko thread inevitably ends in the same argument - is it ok to like him, to not like him, to think he's artistic, to not think he's artistic, to think he has good skating skills, to not think he has good skating skills, to think he has good choreography, to think he has terrible choreography. It is very tedious. As you say, it seems people can only agree that he has good jumps and is a strong competitor.

    I'm not "blaming" either side (fans or non-fans), but being that these threads are posted here, they always end up in a debate. I wouldn't mind having a very clearly labelled Plushenko fan thread in the Trash Can where people could post news and info drama free. What do you guys think?
  27. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I'm new in this forum. I was opened this thread to Plushyenko's birthday. He is 30, but he still competes, I think he deserves this topic. I put links, and I wasn't that person, who started this debate. But if anyone attacks Evgeni or writes untrue things I will defend him, I have the right. Or I haven't? You know that is interesting, I got some PM and they thank to me this thread, links, informations, etc. And they hope I will continue this topic. What can I do? :)
  28. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I don't think you did anything wrong and I'm very thankful you started this thread because I would have never known about the show otherwise. :) This part of the forum is called Great Skate Debate, and it's natural for these posts to turn into discussions about technical stuff like skating skills. Others have the right to bring the issues up and you have the right to defend him; it just gets a little boring having to skim through all of it in order to find the new photos, videos, and news.

    I don't know if you read the Trash Can part of the forum, but it has a lot of fan threads or "uber" threads for skaters like Virtue/Moir and Davis/White which have literally been going on for years. It's helpful because all the fans can post fun stuff like this in there and more or less enjoy it without having to justify why they like those skaters, and those who are not fans can happily ignore it. I am thinking Plush should have one.

    I would start one, but I can't think of a clever name. :lol:
  29. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but Stephane also made this program especially for 'Opera on Ice' in a quite short time, and that was the first time when he skated it. The only difference is that he continued to skate it after that, but Evgeni didn't (or hasn't so far).

    I don't want to say anything special with it, though, although I agree with rayhaneh in this particular case. But enough with that. Thank you for posting all the links to Evgeni's performances. I haven't had time to watch all of them, but probably I will later.
  30. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I think you either didn't read my post about step sequence levels carefully, or didn't understand it. I was not talking about who got level 4 at Japan Open, and who didn't, but about what those levels actually mean, and what they don't mean.

    But here are Chan's scores for his FS at the Rostelecom Cup (Cup of Russia), if you want - http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2012/gprus2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf . He had level 4 step sequence there, and an overall mark of 5.60 for it. His mark for the choreographic sequence was 3.60. And his SS component mark was 9.46. That's what he gets when he skates well, but not at his absolute best. And why did he get practically the same score as Evgeni did at Europeans, although he doubled several jumps there? It was because of his higher components score. 92.70 as opposed to Evgeni's 88.84. Especially his Skating Skills, Transitions and Choreography marks were higher. Which means that if at the same competition Evgeni did all his jumps, but Patrick Chan made one or two mistakes (not like at Japan Open), Patrick could still win mostly because of higher PCS. I am not writing this to prove that Chan is better than Evgeni, just to show that Evgeni still has work to do. But we'll see how he will do at Europeans this season.

    By the way, Daisuke's PCSs (as you mentioned him too), including his SS marks were much lower at Cup of China than at Japan Open, as his skates there were not so good - http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2012/gpchn2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf. Also, he was a bit over-scored in PCS at Japan Open. Most likely Buttle's PCS should have been the highest. Daisuke's programs this season, especially his LP, are not of his best - the LP doesn't have that much real transitions or interesting choreography. Not that much better than Evgeni's, I'd say. I hope that both of them will have more interesting programs in the Olympic season.

    Thank you for the link. Evgeni's steps really are interesting and entertaining here, but I have to say that they are quite similar in most of those performances. That's one of the problems that I have with Evgeni's skating sometimes - he has his own special style, and does some interesting things on ice, but he often repeats almost the same steps and/or moves without any special thought to the particular music that he is using in each performance. He mostly uses music as a background/support for his skating, peformance and his charisma, instead of building his choreography and performance according to the nuances of the music. It's not always so, but very often it is.


    I agree. That is not my criteria for art on ice at all. But, for me, the greatest entertainer and comic artist (but not only) on ice is Kurt Browning, although Evgeni does well too.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  31. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    My personal opinion, Chan was great in COR-this was the first time, when I liked him-, but I think, his SS components were too high. Of course, he is the best in this skills, but he is a member of new generation, he grew up under the new system. And I have a suspicion, the new system has been transformed for Patrick in last years.

    About Browning, I like him, but he is "too much" for me, yes he is a comic artist, but his humor is too American for my European taste. I hope you understand me...I can't tell you better..
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  32. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

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    Ah, the power of skating while Canadian... :sekret:
  33. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  34. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I agree about growing up under the new system. As I already mentioned, it's not Evgeni's fault that he didn't grow up under this same system, and was taught differently. It's very likely that he would also skate differently if he had grown up under this system. But I don't think that Chan's SS components were too high. Or, if they were, then other skater's components at some competitions have also been too high - like Daisuke's components at Japan Open. This has been a tendency lately to give extremely high PCSs to the best skaters, whereas before judges were reluctant to award skaters with really high components marks. I am not sure that the system has been transformed just for Patrick - first of all, it has not been transformed THAT much in the last years. Probably the judges are using this system a bit differently now (sadly, it's possible) - especially when it comes to Chan, because they are so impressed with his skating skills. And probably not just because of that, but I don't know much enough about these things to be able to tell.

    I understand you - although I am European too. Probably Evgeni's humor is a bit too Russian for me sometimes ;) (although I like many Russian skaters and their style). But Kurt Browning is not just a comic skater either - I have to mention his great 'Nyah' program once again. And he has other interesting programs that are not very comic.
  35. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes,I know you are European, I see. I believe you that Evgeni's humor is too Russian :), maybe I don't know the Russian humor. I also like the Nyah program.
    ______
    Maybe you are right in your analysis. Patrick is great, but I'm waiting for his consistently flawless performances.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  36. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  37. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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  38. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Really? :respec::cheer2::plush: Thank you!!Cherub721!
  39. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I also forgot to write - we all know that Plushenko has quick feet, most likely quicker than many other of the best skaters. I know most of the rules, but I am not an expert, and I can't recognize many steps in a real performance. Still, I think that in the current system many of the steps that Evgeni is doing in those performances wouldn't be rewarded very highely. You see that he is running on his toe picks a lot in those steps, but obviously now steps where the blade stays wholly on the ice are rewarded more. Of course, skaters still have little hops, jumps and a bit of running in their steps (as does Chan in his programs), but not as much as Evgeni in those steps. So, he has to do different steps now to get the needed marks.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  40. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. But for me, who is only a fan of figure skating the old steps were more interesting. Fast, and difficult, enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the new system is from the God, and we have to love. Look at the empty seats in the arenas. Thanks to the new system.