Plushenko

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by lala, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. anna1506

    anna1506 New Member

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    I recommend: Kings on Ice 2012 Bucharest Lambiel :) music - Nijinsky

    I can not add a link, because I have problems with the internet
    Sorry :(
     
  2. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Here's a link to it. But that was not supposed to be a tribute to Plushenko. It was a remake of Stephane's own exhibition program to 'Magic Stradivarius' (which is a part of 'Tribute to Nijinsky' music, only in different arrangement) which he first skated on 'Art on Ice' with Marton's live playing - some time before Evgeni first skated his 'Tribute to Nijinsky'.
     
  3. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  4. GoGreen

    GoGreen New Member

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    It is great to have these grand ice shows marking significant cornerstones of such an illustrious career. I guess the next big show would be celebrating '20 years together' with Mishin and St Petersburg?
     
  5. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Plushy said this. It was very professional, I think thanks to Yana.
     
  6. anna1506

    anna1506 New Member

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    Thank you! I know, but I thought that this program is worth recalling ;)
     
  7. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat Member

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    you understand English perfectly but I or some of others felt "Hilarious/The funniest skating jokes" were not proper words for Stephane's performance. If some persons took it as a purely joke and his intention was just to make someone fun, I think it was misunderstanding.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  8. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat Member

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  9. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  10. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Awww, that was sweet when he danced with his wife. He looks good with Navka! And Slutskaya looks stunning there.
     
  12. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  13. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  14. LLOS

    LLOS New Member

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    Plushenko is listed for the NRW Trophy in Germany, does someone have an idea if this is official? Can't belive he would come to such a "small" competition. I thought he would start at Nationals...

    Gachinski will be there too, maybe Mishin thought, I bring both skaters when I'm there anyway ;)
     
  15. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Liza Tuk is also on list. Plushenko isn't confirmed yet on his official website, but i think he will compete. Sometime he said that he will compete on some little competiton before Russian Natonal. Do you know that Yuna also will compete there?

    http://data17.gallery.ru/albums/gall...src-u4178c.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Great links! Thanks for posting.
     
  17. LLOS

    LLOS New Member

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    wow, this is going to be a big competition. To bad there are just 3 rows of seats for the spectators. I guess I must come early to get a seat. I hope they know, it won't be the big Westfalenhalle that they use for Euros/Worlds but just the small practice rink ;) anyway I'm looking forward to this competition :swoon:
     
  18. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I'm envious of you. Yes, you need to go early, you have a great seat. :)))

    But I thought the competition will be in the big ice rink...Many-many skaters will compete there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  19. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  20. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I think other skaters can too when there is still a visible ligth-border to the ice ;). I know that Plushenko is your idol and super hero, but he is not an inhuman superman, and there are things that some other skaters can do just as well as him, if not better (especially when it comes to skating skills).
     
  21. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Why such hatred against Plushenko? Here is a poster who loves Plushenko and expresses it. No need to start a debate here. There are plenty of hateful threads about Plushenko that you will enjoy posting in.
     
  22. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    What is hateful about my post :eek::confused:? I have stated before in this thread that I too respect and like Evgeni. What I wrote now is not hateful at all, it's just the truth. Probably I shouldn't have written that, but I admit that sometimes I grow tired of some people hyping one skater like some god who is superior to all others. It really seems belittling of other skaters. I know that Plushenko is a legend with many titles and medals, a really special skater with special energetics and his own kind of artistry (I personally think so too), probably the best jumper ever, and so on. But, despite all his titles and his status, there are skaters who are no less special than him - just in other ways. Dick Button, Kurt Browning (even though he didn't manage to win an Olympic medal), Alexei Yagudin (yes, yes), John Curry are no lesser legends than Plushenko - each in their own way. As for things that some skaters can do even better than Evgeni - Patrick Chan is not my favorite skater, but his skating skills are clearly better than Evgeni's. And that's not even Plushenko's fault - at the time when he learned to skate there were no such requirements for skating skills as there are now. That's just the way it is. So, there are other skaters who have better skating skills than Evgeni, who can spin better than him, who can jump with less preparation than him, or who are more artistically refined than him (the last one is imho, of course).

    It's okay to love one skater above all others and to express your appreciation for that skater as much as you want, but I think there are some limits where you turn that skater into some kind of inhuman God who is superior to all others. I, for instance, have never hidden that I love Stephane Lambiel more than any other skater, that his artistry speaks to me more than any other (current) skater's artistry, and, that to me, there is no one like him, but I have never said that he is the most artistic skater ever like some other fans say. I know that there have been skaters who were probably even greater artists than him, skaters who are just as great at performing than him, even better in some ways, that there are still skaters (even among the current ones) who can do things and styles that he can't do, and so on. So, it's sometimes difficult for me to understand those people who worship and praise only one skater like some kind of deity.

    I was not going to write any of that here, but your comment provoked me to do it. Sorry.
     
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  23. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I was joking, my friend ;) But look at this.

    If you look at Japan Open's protocol:

    Skating skill: Takahashi 9.11 Evgeni 8.75 Jeff 8.71 Chan 8.61
    Stsq: Takahashi 5.6, Chan 5.5, Evgeni 5.3, Jeff 5.3 (means both are 3rd)
    Chsq: Jeff 3.6, Takahashi 3.4, Evgeni 3.3, Chan 3.2

    In Sheffield:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2012/ec2012_protocol.pdf
    Look at the protocols!

    If you miss this article:
    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120525&content_id=32207752&vkey=ice_news
    Camerlengo:
    "Plushenko has everything he needs to compete at the same level as the others. He can definitely fight for medals."
    Evgeni is really capable. He surprised me with his ability and skills as a skater. I'd ask, 'Why haven't you done that before?' He did so many things, but in a competitive program you have to consider all the time the elements, the jumps, the timing, the stamina, many things. So you cannot really skate a program using all of your skills, [including] all the steps you can do and all of the other things you can do on the ice. Because you have to think, 'If I overload the program, I'm not able to do the elements.' And in the end, the elements give you the results.

    Icenetwork.com: Plushenko has been criticized for a lack of transitions between elements.

    Camerlengo: That's what we worked on. We worked on having full transitions; we wanted to do that. I said, 'I want to see you doing something that is not crossovers.' And we went for that, and he was really, really positive. He feels so motivated; he wants to show everybody, 'I can do this, I can do that.' Why he didn't do more of that before, I cannot say, but his [winning] history makes him right. It seemed to have hurt him a bit at the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, though.

    In Vancouver, he lost the Olympics [due to] one jump. (Evan Lysacek defeated Plushenko by 1.31 points.) He didn't perform a triple-double-double combination; he did triple-double. If he had done triple-double-double, he might be Olympic champion. So history proves him right. People criticize him, but he always did the same thing in competition and he has always been rewarded. So in the end, he's right.

    Icenetwork.com: If Plushenko does compete at the world championships again, he'll have to compete against Patrick Chan, Daisuke Takahashi.

    Camerlengo: He can do it. Of course, he is 30 years old and he's going to be the oldest one of the whole group, but he has good technique and such skills when he skates. I think he can make it. I think he can go and show up there with the program and compete, for sure. He won [2012] Europeans with a big score.

    He has everything he needs to compete at the same level with all the others and even more, because he has such amazing experience, and he has a charisma that is so amazing on the ice. Already, when he is just standing on the ice, the people watch him so [intently].








    Snow:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufh-ollbPMQ
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  24. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this is a hostile place for Evgeni..but he is amazing. Some people forgot that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  25. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Hmmm, there is a difference between suggesting Plushenko is not the best at everything and writing a hate letter - I don't feel lauravv meant any disrespect and was just stating her opinion which was hardly scathing

    Moreover, I do believe that the better fan is the one who is lucid enough to recognize both their favorite's strengths and weaknesses - and all skaters have both - and accept both sides of said skater, warts and all, instead of putting blinders on and be in love with their own fabricated image of said skater, dismissing any criticism. After all, the skaters themselves need to be open to (constructive) criticism because that's by listening to those that they'll know where they need to work and improve

    Also, no one can be the best at everything, even if they work hard to get as close to it as possible, if only because, while some qualities can be improved upon, others can't really be learnt: you either have them or you don't. Chan's skating skills are a good example of that because, while the others can work and improve theirs and catch up to some extent, there is just something about the way he floats on the ice, a purity to his skating that only someone with a similar gift could hope to emulate

    Likewise, Plushenko is a man of many talents, one of which is huge charisma, and that's another thing that cannot be taught and that he will always have more than a lot of the other skaters. Similarily though, Chan will always be that bit lighter on the ice; Lambiel and Takahashi will probably always be more artists, craftsmen than him. Recognizing this, however, doesn't take anything away from Plushenko as an athlete or lessen his accomplishments, which everybody knows are among the greatest in modern skating in terms of results
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  26. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    What is the art and what is the art on ice? What do you think? This is not an attack, I'm curious. :) ( I have never wrote, Plushy is the best in every respect.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  27. anna1506

    anna1506 New Member

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    Lala truly loves Plushenko. Do not disturb her to love him! Thanks to her we have new information about Plush and we can learn a lot more. ;) :shuffle:
     
  28. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Why should I think this is an attack ? :) You have every right to ask a question ;)

    I don't think it's something you can slap a definition on: you don't define art - you recognize it when you see it, and different people might see different things. But at any rate, art should be a form of exploration and transcendance

    Trying to be more precise, as regards figure skating, artistry definitely has to do with the relation between the skater and the music, which is similar to that found in dance. It can take different forms, skaters may have different approaches to it, but the result will always be a form of transcendance of the music as translated both on the ice and towards the public
     
  29. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Okay, if you want - That proves nothing. First of all, Chan had one of the worst (if not the worst) skates of his career at Japan Open, so it's only natural that his SS and STsq marks were also worse than usual there. As for Sheffield - Chan didn't compete there. But if you would compare the marks he got for some of his best skates with Evgeni's marks for his (recent) best skates, the picture would be a bit different. Also, I think you are quite naive to believe in all marks given by judges at all competitions. If you would be more interested in figure skating in general, not just in Plushenko, and if you would read even just this forum more, then you would know that very few people here (including those who really know a lot about figure skating) believe so blindly in all judge's marks like you do. Most people who know about figure skating believe in what they see more than in judge's marks (I am not saying that judges know less, just that they don't always mark accordingly for different reasons). And Chan's skating skills is something that is really visible - even on TV, and even to people who are not experts. So, it's a common knowledge in figure skating world that his overall skating skills are really special, and like no other male single skater's - even people who don't like him admit that. Marks in some separate competition are not going to change that reality.

    But it seems that you are so focused only on Evgeni that you just don't want to see and understand. A few years ago I too was not able to really notice and understand many things, like the difference in skating skills of different skaters. But then I came to the point where I really wanted to see and to understand things about skating outside of just enjoying my favorite skaters performances and artistry. Now I still don't notice and understand everything, but I understand a lot more than before. I wish to you to also come to that point one day where you will want to understand things about figure skating more, and to appreciate also what other skaters do, not just admire and gush about Evgeni.


    And I think that you didn't read my posts carefully. I wrote in my last post and others that I think that Plushenko has artistry too. That I mentioned his jumps (because he really is the best, or one of the best jumpers in figure skating history - will you really deny that?) doesn't mean I think that he doesn't have anything else. As I said, he has his own kind of artistry, he is a great and very charismatic performer, and he can do moves and even some steps that are his trademark, and that no one else can do/does. He is also quite a good spinner, although I would say that his spins are not the most beautiful.

    As for the "young girl" - probably I am at my 31, but that also means nothing. No, actually, when Evgeni beat Stephane at 2006 Olympics, I was not Stephane's fan yet, and then I was so impressed by Evgeni's skates that I didn't think even for one moment that some other skater (Stephane or someone else) should have won. I was really sad that Stephane had such unsuccessful skates at 2010 Olympics - most of all that he didn't manage to perform his beautiful 'Traviata' as well as he could at his last competition. I knew that he had more complicated choreography and more transitions in his programs than Evgeni, but that didn't make me think that he should have placed higher than Evgeni. He just didn't do well enough to get a medal, but Evgeni did - fair and square.


    What are you trying to prove? That Evgeni is indeed superior to all other skaters, and that he is the best in everything? I think even he doesn't think that. He knows his strong sides, and he also knows the things that he has to improve. That's why he is doing all of this. But still there are some limits to how much a skater can improve at that age. In his new LP he has improved in some things, but not to the level of Patrick Chan. I don't think that it is possible now for him - it's too late.

    Also, that he worked on those things with Camerlengo doesn't mean that he is really doing all of them in his new programs - obviously Mishin likes to take some choreographic movements and transitions out from programs so that it would be easier for his skaters to jump. Most likely he has done it again. I believe that there are a lot of steps and things that Plushenko can do that he is not doing in his programs, but you know - what one really does is what counts, not what one can do. There are other skaters who really try to do everything in their competitive programs now - difficult jumps, steps, choreography, a lot of transitions. Evgeni tries now too, but a little less. He can't be blamed for that, because he wasn't taught that way, and it's much more difficult for him than it is for younger skaters who have been taught according to the new requirements. And, as he is a really respected skater with a huge reputation, what he is doing will probably be enough for judges to give him the marks that he needs, especially if he does all his jumps right, and other skaters don't.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
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  30. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I want to be careful..I don't want to attack anyone in this forum. :)

    Good definition. I think the art on ice : many emotions: passion,pain, fun, sadness etc..and so many genres : comedy, tragedy, satire,etc., and a variety of dances. I'm right?
    Well, if you know Plushenko's whole career, you can find examples of each emotion, genres, and many dances.

    Plushy is 15, and i think he is an enetertainer in this early age:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2st17-hWl_k "a form of transcendance of the music as translated both on the ice and towards the public" What do you think? :)