Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    I'm the first to adore most Russian skaters, but this is spot on. I think poor Plushy grew up very isolated from normal life, and I think he behaves often very childishly. I am not saying he is a bad person or eville or anything silly like that. I just think he can be very immature for someone his age and visibility in the world. I feel very sorry for him. After his skating life is done, I wonder how he will adjust? Then again, he had a right to say whatever he felt like saying. We have the right to either like it or not. I think a real gentleman would have kept his mouth shut and just let his skating do the talking for him next time the two of them meet up. I guess that's asking too much.
  2. GoGreen

    GoGreen New Member

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    :lol: Very true. Probably one caveat with the statement, at this particular message board.

    Whenever you see the name Plushenko, sure there will be a crowd! :D


    Very puzzling statement. So anyone who will not compete with Chan in the next competition cannot comment on the results of Worlds, which is the most important figure skating competition of the year?
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  3. bek

    bek Guest

    One expects to see some hometown favoritism, but it use to be that you still had to well skate decently.. The new system throws that out the window. I want to make clear with my snarky post before. I think Chan is a beautiful skater. But I don't enjoy watching any skater fall multiple times.

    I'm far more annoyed at the judges and the folks who are defending Chan's win. Than I'm at Chan. Although Chan making comments like Denis made as many mistakes as he did, doesn't endear me to him either.
  4. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

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    I can't stand Plushenko and can't believe that I agree with him that Chan should not have gotten the marks he got. I love Chan's skating. Him,Takahashi, Hanyu, and Buttle skate amazing when they are on. The edges, the flow, the transitions, the musicality of their programs are sublime.

    Plushenko, Stojko, Joubert, Reynolds are jumping beans that don't really focus on the artistic part of skating but I can't negate that this is a sport so while the Canuck in me is happy that Chan won gold. Silver would have been cool too.

    No matter what the placement for Chan was here, 1st to 3rd ( IMHO he deserved to be on the podium), Canada had a very successful world's so that was all I cared about.

    I chalk Chan's win like Hamilton in Sarajevo. Or Witt in Calgary. If figures hadn't been in the sport, Orser would have won in 1984 and Manley would have won in 1988.

    Ten would have won if it had been just the LP in 2013.

    If anything I hope this fires up Chan. If he wins in Sochi with that...gawd help us all.
  5. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
  6. just tuned in

    just tuned in Active Member

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  7. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    I am too cheap to buy real maple syrup.
  8. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    Oh my, no. I guess our language differences are skewing the way you are interpreting me. What I am saying is that a more admirable behavior would be to be silent and just let my own skating - against whomever-do the talking for me. I think Plushy feels threatened by Chan because Chan has had a lot of success lately whether anyone thinks he has deserved it or not. If Plushenko can keep his health intact for Sochi, it will be quite the story, a head to head battle between the 2. It's just typical competitive BS trash talk. Athletes do it all the time. But since so many are relagating Plushneko to Godlike status, I was hoping he would also show more class, but then.....well, he is who he is. Not a bad guy, just certainly not a God. Quite human in fact. I think I like that better than him being some sort of idol of perfection.
  9. bek

    bek Guest

    I don't think Plushenko feels threatened by Chan. Plushenko is on record saying he doesn't think Gold is possible in Sochi... I think Plushenko is frankly saying what he thinks, that Chan didn't earn this win.

    Its not like Chan's never criticized Plushenko. I'm not sure what Plushenko would be threatened about. I think Plushenko understands his own abilities and what is possible not possible.
  10. ltnskater

    ltnskater Active Member

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    Michelle Kwan! :slinkaway
  11. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This is nonsense. It was very important that people call Lysaceks bullcrap and his win nonsense bullcrap. Now skating is back to normal with jumps with quads in sp and lp! Men's skating is back to normal. Thanks mainly to plushenko and stojko not being "oh I am so happy with silver" and stojko being "I'm so happy with he results!" but plushenko competing and saying it made so much more impact!! Like Joubert said the same thing but not on the Olympic level! Fs as sport needed plushenkos comments and his clean skating in Vancouver with no falls or stepouts or doubles- better than in Torino which had step out and doubling made his words mean more!! He helped put men's skating back to normal! Not any bullcrap pr training saying like quadlessness is ok and no big deal! They were very big deals!
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  12. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    You get extra points for doing a quad while wearing a wig?

    Uh, um....what?!?!
  13. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Definitely. I mean I respect him as an athlete, a competitor and a jumper, but not at all as a skater, an artist or even a sportsman.

    And his skating and his ideal of what is good skating seems very dated. Yes, jumps and charisma (subjective) are important in competitive skating, but they are not everything. Edges matter. Ice coverage matters. 1 foot skating matters. Skating in both directions matters. Choreography matters. In-betweens matter. Spins matter. Quality matters. With how his programs were constructed and presented in 2006 and 2010, it just seems like he was quite clueless as to what the judges and the system really wanted - especially in 2010 with all the trash talk on why he believed he should have won.
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    You mean with plushenkos level 4 spins in Vancouver ? I think its obvious he knows spins matter and that's why he got level 4's on his spins. And why his step sequences weren't below level 3. And he had choreo and everything. The total package. Acting like plushenko got level 1 spins or his spins got no points is ludicrous.
  15. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    Men's skating "back to normal?" My goodness. Whatever does that mean? What's normal and who is normal? In what universe is there a certifiable "normal" for any skating discipline? I think the word "normal" is the last word I would ever use for figure skating, and I think that's one reason I love it. I absolutely believe Plushy feels threatened by Chan. I'm NOT saying Chan is the better skater. I'm saying Chan is being touted as the more "complete" skater because of COP, even when he is gifted with wins he might not deserve. Chan when he is "on" is doing all the things Plushenko is criticized for not doing. And doing them brilliantly. And, it's the judges doing the "gifting" remember. I just think Plushenko is so competitive that if a 13 year old girl won the men's free skate, Plushenko would find something to comment on to put her down and elevate himself. That's pretty normal with hyper-competitive types. And please note-I am being sarcastic and not realistic...
  16. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    :lol::rofl: :lol::rofl:
  17. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Yeah back to normal in that there is evidence of trying hard and technical progress from skaters.

    Chan and plushenko do have a history but plushenko is not alone here! Other skaters past and present are saying the same thing. Weir could compete against Chan too and he said the same thing!
  18. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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  19. bek

    bek Guest

    In 2006, people forget Plushenko was coming off a bad injury. And was having to get use to a new system. I think Plushenko was trying to just skate clean and win. Mishin said something like the new system doesn't appreciate artistry so we will just load up the jumps. And in 2010, I do think it was a physical issue.

    Plush may talk up jumps because its what he does best too. :lol:

    Are you sure that's his idea of skating? I remember reading an article where Plushenko criticized Joubert beating Lambiel in 2004, saying that Lambiel does everything better than Joubert. I also remember Mishin calling Kozuka "wonderful"...The thing is Plushenko maybe is all about jumps because its what he can do best and his age. Back when he was coming up it was all important.

    But I wouldn't assume he can't appreciate others, he's praised Chan's skating in the past.

    As for Chan being the complete skater, I don't see him as that. When he skates well, but I don't think programs that constantly have multiple major errors is a sign of "completeness"

    I wouldn't call Plushenko a good sport at all. But you know what, Chan isn't either. Saying he is on record saying Dennis made the same amount of mistakes as him, and he best Dennis is "kicking himself"
  20. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Bingo.
  21. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    What an ignorant post. You become more bizarre by the day...
  22. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    I'm not sure that's the best example to use :lol: If posing is what does it for you well I'm not sure what to say. It took until 1:40ish in that video for him to do anything other than crossovers, three turns, and mohawks, outside of his footwork. I'd rather see expression with choreography, body movement, etc... (ymmv, obviously) I kinda feel like the Plushenko of late is insulting to my intelligence. He has charisma, but it's just not enough to engage me when you're putting on a clinic of basic turns. It's boring and almost feels manipulative.
  23. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Did he actually lick his finger at 2:04? Is that part of IN, CH or P/E? It sure isn't part of SS...
  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    How do you know what they do or don't focus on? I think this is attributing motivations to skaters that they may not have, based on how well their style works for you. My memories of Stojko are by now pretty hazy, but Plushenko had some lovely programs in the past and both Joubert and Reynolds have tried to improve various aspects of their skating. Joubert did not skate a Flamenco SP and Beethoven LP two seasons ago, or try the Inception LP earlier this season, because he wanted to showcase his jumps. Reynolds' work with Shae-Lynn Bourne does not suggest to me a skater who doesn't want to improve his artistic expression; I find him greatly improved in that regard.

    Skating skills and transitions are not artistry; they can enable artistry if used correctly. And artistry is a very subjective thing - of your list, for instance, I don't feel that Chan and Hanyu are anywhere near Buttle and Takahashi at this point in their career. My reaction to Elegie was basically "Chan has a lovely program, well done him, but it would be nicer if Buttle skated it himself".
    nubka and (deleted member) like this.
  25. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    There are enough movements in Tessa and Scott programs that variants the same questions, Chan also has choreography that usually make no sense and he does not feel the music as well. On top of that he does some beautiful falls which some judges adds to his transition mark, Choreography and P/E. As for Plushy's program, he skates with amazing confidence and command and never in his program does he look like a fragile porcelain doll.

    As for the purpose of Plushenko's comment, I think it is to put pressure on ISU on the scoring. The world championship scoring has angered many around the world. The last two world championships which Chan won have been less the convincing, so Plushenko would like to portray Chan as the favoured one by ISU , and Canada as having to much support within ISU. The next Olympics are in Russia, and he stirring Russian media up one year before the games will severally help him.ISU can't afford to have another SLC like scandal, and if Russians feel the result was unjustified, the whole Russian media will do what US media did in SLC. Plushenko's comment was a hint in this direction to ISU...

    I think US, Russia, Canada, Japan, China and Korea all know how to politic in ISU, and the strength of politicking has varied over the years
  26. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Oh really? matter of taste... the crowd went crazy for him, Chris, ES commentator adore it..so who cares? I find Chan exquisitely boring. Chan can glide, but I prefer Plushenko's worst performance to Chan's best. Plushenko has drama and character in his dance, Chan has no expression, no emotion.

    About this Tango:

    From China:
    And as an exhibition program, oh boy, the audience just loves it! He almost blew 18,000 people off with that program in Artistry On Ice last year. I have read nothing but raving review after that performance in China, people calling it "the highlight of the night", and "the perfect combination of dancing and music".

    -----
    Sinead Kerr:

    The main event this year – if the crowd was anything to go by – was the Men’s. The arena was packed and the audience was excited, mainly, I think, because of the return of Olympic gold medallist and twice silver medallist, Evgeni Plushenko, who – as ever – didn’t disappoint.
    We have done many shows with Evgeni and there is no doubt that he is a star in the skating world. He has a presence which is hard to define and almost impossible to imitate – as his training partner, runner up Artur Gachinski, can attest to.
    Artur skated cleanly and landed more quads than Evgeni, tried his best to skated like him and in some ways is more able in the transition steps. Yet, somehow, when he finished, he was met with good applause rather than the impromptu standing ovation and wild enthusiasm following Plushenko. Many people questioned Evgeni’s comeback, but I think he proved here in Sheffield that he is still one of the best competitors ever in the sport and certainly a big draw....


    Tomas Verner:
    "And it's without mentioning of Evgeni Plushenko - probably the only one skater in the world, capable alone to filed full arena."

    :))
  27. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: it was a show... i like it... :cold: :)
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  28. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Ridiculous. http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120525&content_id=32207752&vkey=ice_news

    Camerlengo: He was amazing. Right from the beginning, he and I listened to the music [and discussed] what he would like to go for -- my ideas, his ideas. We never had a conflict. So far, it's been very, very good.

    Evgeni is really capable. He surprised me with his ability and skills as a skater. I'd ask, 'Why haven't you done that before?' He did so many things, but in a competitive program you have to consider all the time the elements, the jumps, the timing, the stamina, many things. So you cannot really skate a program using all of your skills, [including] all the steps you can do and all of the other things you can do on the ice. Because you have to think, 'If I overload the program, I'm not able to do the elements.' And in the end, the elements give you the results.

    Icenetwork.com: Plushenko has been criticized for a lack of transitions between elements.

    Camerlengo: That's what we worked on. We worked on having full transitions; we wanted to do that. I said, 'I want to see you doing something that is not crossovers.' And we went for that, and he was really, really positive. He feels so motivated; he wants to show everybody, 'I can do this, I can do that.' Why he didn't do more of that before, I cannot say, but his [winning] history makes him right. It seemed to have hurt him a bit at the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, though.

    In Vancouver, he lost the Olympics [due to] one jump. (Evan Lysacek defeated Plushenko by 1.31 points.) He didn't perform a triple-double-double combination; he did triple-double. If he had done triple-double-double, he might be Olympic champion. So history proves him right. People criticize him, but he always did the same thing in competition and he has always been rewarded. So in the end, he's right.

    Icenetwork.com: If Plushenko does compete at the world championships again, he'll have to compete against Patrick Chan, Daisuke Takahashi.

    Camerlengo: He can do it. Of course, he is 30 years old and he's going to be the oldest one of the whole group, but he has good technique and such skills when he skates. I think he can make it. I think he can go and show up there with the program and compete, for sure. He won [2012] Europeans with a big score.

    He has everything he needs to compete at the same level with all the others and even more, because he has such amazing experience, and he has a charisma that is so amazing on the ice. Already, when he is just standing on the ice, the people watch him so [intently].

    Do you understand better the FS, like Camerlengo????..And this is one exmple about Plush skating...Jacky Wong also praised his skills ..
  29. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    What happened? I posted this:

    Well, this is matter of taste...If you mentioned Abbott I find him extremly boring...sorry, especially in this year. I'm sure if Plushenko wants to be like Abbott, he can be.

    I got a PM:
    Your posts are patronising and rude

    Oh really???? You can say every rude and unreal things about Plush..you can.. This is outrageously double standard...
  30. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    I just kept seeing the "He has skills he never shows anyone" If this is what COP requires he's the fool for not showing it when he knew that's what they were looking for. Then when he doesn't win it's everybody else's fault. :blah:
    skatemomaz and (deleted member) like this.
  31. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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    Great! Plushenko didn´t even compete in Canada but he already got more comments than Chan and D10! :plush:
    In Sochi all he has to do is to appear, it doesn´t matter if he finishes in top 20 or not:lol:. I bet people won´t even remember the name of the gold medallist, they´ll talk about Plushenko. :lol:

    It´s funny how people that never respected Plushenko say that he lost their respect! LOL! :rofl::rolleyes:
  32. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I too would be happy if they did away with the short program. Retroactively. But only for the Worlds in London. Then I would kindly ask them to bring the SP back in competition.;)
  33. ratatouille

    ratatouille New Member

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    hmm...I need some time to go through all of the comments here but I also why only Plushy's voice has a a thread while MANY have questioned Chan's score. I must say it's a deja vu.
    I actually like Chan's skating but his arrogant manner while interviewed makes me dislike him as a person.
  34. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    So Chan with his three quads in London definitely deserved the win then in your eyes....most quads, best quality quads...

    Do you even know what you're arguing any more? :rofl:
  35. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    And? He won the gold in 2006. He tied Lysacek on PCS in 2010 (not that I think Lysacek has most of those qualities in abundance either).

    To the contrary, I think Plush knows exactly how to use the system. He was just dumb to state it outright (that the judges mark him and Joubert as having transitions when they don't).

    If he had done another 2loop in his LP, he would have won in Vancouver, even with the basic skating that everyone here says is so horrible.

    Because the judges, at the end of the day, don't really mark according to the PCS criteria alone. It would be interesting if they did, but they would have to do so for everyone, not just Plushenko.

    In this sense Plushenko is not so different from Chan. They design their programs according to their strengths, knowing the judges mark on an overall impression. Plushenko does clean, streamlined programs with great jumps, accenting the big points of the music, in a style that engages the audience even if the choreography is simple. Chan does beautifully detailed choreography that shows off his amazing basics, with a style that is more reserved and for some, lacking musicality, and these difficult programs often lead to major mistakes. Chan knows that by putting in all those difficult turns, he can score the PCS even with multiple falls without getting hit too badly on PE. He's more or less said as much (that the judges like him and see what he puts on the ice even with mistakes). Plush knows that if he does the jumps and engages the audience, his TR mark can be high enough to win.

    Exactly, he doesn't ignore steps and spins at all (he might have had one level 3 spin but your point basically stands).

    He also had very nice LP choreo this year, and made an effort to move more jumps into the second half.

    My feeling was Chan would be my favorite skater if only I watched on mute. ;)
  36. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Makes no sense TO YOU. I, however, am grateful for the lack of hip thrusts, finger-lickin' good hand choreo and the presence of organic flow of the choreography that uses the feet for a change.

    ITA with Marco, Plushy's skating looks dated. This is 2013, not 2006. He is all about the hands and very little about the blade/edgework.
  37. ItalianFan

    ItalianFan Member

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    Fear not! I did not mean this literally, but intend the many sacrifices he made, even as a child, to persevere and become the great skater he is.
  38. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Everyone did quads so who had the best skate? That was Ten. I dont support goebel winning in 2002 and where you got I think most quads should win I don't know. I supported plushenko winning euros 2012 he was the best and gachinski 3 quads and plushenko 1 and in 2002 yagudin 2 and goebel 3. Once the skaters put everything into a program which includes a quad they are at lest competing on the same advanced level. So I know what have been saying you think I just say most quads wins which is wrong like there is nothing else involved in skating. Like everyone who opposed Lysaceks win like plushenko and others were said to want to abolish skating as it is and just have a one jump contest.
  39. ItalianFan

    ItalianFan Member

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    You're right, he showed poor sportsmanship by climbing over the podium- what can I say?? Nobody's perfect.
  40. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    The funny thing is that I'm not even sure he actually said that. The quote only appeared in one report from the press conference, the context was never explained and some of the meaning may have been lost in translation. But that's neither here nor there.

    I'd rather have a few retro programs in the mix than watch everyone skate smart programs that tick off the required points and leave me cold. Few people know how to code-whore in an interesting way.