Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,014
    Well, I'm an ├╝ber, but I don't know why he is doing something...:) Probably he knew, if he says something like this, that will be in the center...
     
  2. Dilng

    Dilng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,054
    If he was referring to the 2004 World Championships that Plushenko won with a fall that is just ridiculous because it was more like a slip and the program was totally awesome!!! In fact it was the best program that Plushenko has ever skated. Chan's win on Saturday was just a complete mess!! Yes, Plushenko might be the pot calling the kettle black regarding politikking, but it doesn't change the fact that he is probably right.
     
  3. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,218
    Since you mentioned Trankov, Chan's FS performance at Worlds looked more like V/T's free skate at 2012 Cup of Russia where they made mistakes on four of their technical elements - of which two were falls - but still won the segment to pairs that didn't fall.
     
  4. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,275
    Really? Has he never had a great program that was clean?
     
  5. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,014
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  6. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    In Russia. Sure!:shuffle:
     
  7. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2001
    Messages:
    2,478
    It blows my mind how Plushenko has the nerve to blame Skate Canada. A simple look at the protocol tells anyone that mistakes are not penalized enough. Everyone rushes to how the PCS aren't apparently scored to their liking when the results don't turn out right. People think that incurring harsher penalties for missed jumps would be the end of quad attempts and such. I don't think so.

    Sure, we can debate and debate how Skater X should have their Skating Skills and Choreography mark drop down to a 5.00 or something outrageous because of falls, but that wouldn't be indicative of the skating and people are foolish if they really think that should happen. If you are indeed going to look towards the holding up of the PCS, then people need to cool down about Chan and look at cases like Michal Brezina in the short program. A 7.93 for interpretation? Fan or not, he skated right through the music without an ounce of trying to listen to it or choreography until the footwork towards the end started. People want to battle over whether a 9.00 or 8.50 was more appropriate for Chan, but it should be whether Brezina really deserved in the 3.00's or 4.00's for his TR, CH, and IN marks-- regardless of his start order or landing the jumps.

    Second thought-- 'as a person who knows figure skating', you'd think Evgeny would try to fill out his programs more to the liking of what the PCS criteria asks. But no, he seems to rather rely on questionable scoring for himself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  8. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,452
    Hahahaaaa
    Of course, he was not flawless, but Joubert had just a double turn at the end of his Quad/Triple combo, late in the program. Not a fall before jumping.
    I won't discuss if Joubert was better or not, I don't care. But it's your opinion (and judges', as it was judges opinion to put Chan over Ten here).
     
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,443
    If you say as part of a base value that failed jumps be punished more that did lead to abandonment of quads by men in large numbers. It did. If you say failed jump gets same base value but minus 2 for fall instead of 1 that is more penalty but less of a penalty if there was ur so base value for full rotation remains the same but 2 off not 1. The base value can't go down again so where like a quad toe with < and fall is actually worth nothing. 10.3 for quad with fall going down to 7 and then 5 because of minus for falls maybe would not lead to jump abandonment. And that goes for all jumps too.
     
  10. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,014
    Hahahaha? That is not the same thing...Chan can win a World title with 4 big mistakes including 2 falls....:hat1: Did you read my answer yesturday?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  11. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2001
    Messages:
    2,478
    Many of you share this same thinking process and I don't know why. Really, it doesn't create that drastic of a difference that a skater is going to fall from 3rd to 15th under slightly adjusted rules. It *does* create enough of a difference that it reflects the actual skating.

    Some stuff I have written in the last few days to demonstrate:

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/03/following-up-on-current-state-of-skating.html

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/03/even-more-analyzing-chan-and-ijs.html

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/03/the-new-ijs-set-of-points-to-end-all.html
     
  12. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,804
    Oh really??
     
  13. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,810
    And we care what Plushenko thinks about Chan's win because???

    This from a skater who acknowledges that he has not much of anything in between his jumps.
    This from a skater who has been repeatedly held up in PCS over past years.
    Has he even WATCHED anything from the comp?

    I think some of you need to take a good look at what it actually taking place ON the ice instead of wuz-robbing and yelling CHANFLATION every time Chan wins.
     
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  14. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,286
    I agree with Plushenko.
     
    nubka and (deleted member) like this.
  15. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,804
    And PLushenko can win titles (some anyway) with minimal choreography and no transitions. What's your point?
     
  16. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    Todd, Johnny and Tina are Americans. Russian champion should be treated as a villain here, you know :p
     
  17. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2001
    Messages:
    2,478
    Everyone can have an opinion, but I must have missed where everyone else blames Skate Canada for the points Chan earned..
     
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,854
    I am a big Plushenko fan but it's not going to help him to express his opinion this openly (even though many others - from other countries- agree with him), since he plans to compete in Sochi next year, and I hope he does. He needs to let the feds battle this out. It's OK for Weir and Eldredge to express it because they are not planning on competing in Sochi or even worlds at this point (yes, I am writing off Weir). Gao said the same thing but she does not have the kind of visibility Plushy has in international figure skating.

    However, it is not Plushenko's nature to keep quiet if he feels that something is wrong. He speaks up. I just accept it as his opinion, and I happen to agree with it. I do believe that if this competition was somewhere other than Canada, there was at least a chance of seeing a different result.
     
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,854
    Actually we ARE talking about what actually took place on the ice. You don't know whether Plushenko watched it, so that jab was quite unnecessary. You did not ask whether Weir or Eldredge watched it. A little animosity toward the 2006 Olympic champion?
     
  20. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    5,034
    Most of these titles were won under a system that did not emphasize transitions and had different requirements as far as choreography was concerned, so I'm not sure how this is really relevant. Not to mention that much of Plushenko's success owes to consistency and strong jump technique, and even without cramming his programs with transitions, that is something that is worth a lot of points.

    I hope I don't get :lynch: for this, but I really don't understand the obsession with transitions, seemingly above and beyond all other components. They are one component out of five, not the most important one, and to be honest, I find that a lot of the transitions skaters perform contribute nothing to their programs or to my enjoyment of their skating. I think this component and the way it is interpreted privileges quantity and difficulty over quality and aesthetics, and I can't say this is something I want to applaud.

    Anyway, back on point, Plushenko is not arguing that he is better than Chan or would have beaten Chan, so it doesn't matter how his programs compare to Chan's. It matters how Ten's programs and performance at Worlds compare to Chan's, and Plushenko is hardly the only one to answer that with "favorably".
     
  21. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,014
    :rofl: Yes, of course

    Weir's tweet:

    This judging is ridiculous and the only reason people buy it is because it's in North America. Imagine the outcry if it were Russia+Plush!?
     
  22. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    But the biggest mistake for Plushy's this move is that he contributed this win as a result of politicking from Canada. He will not get away with this.
     
  23. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,014
    Dear Tony! These were three twitts...No more.... I understand why he did not make a serious analysis....
     
  24. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,443
    If you factored in a zero in transitions in pcs it would have killed plushenkos pcs score! A total zero from 2004-2005 season to the most recent 2012-2013 season would he have won anything? One pcs category of zero from sp and lp would he have even won the 2006 Olympics? So here you have a situation to where the only right score for plushenko was zero and he doesn't win anything probably. But even if a zero was right that would mandate all judges giving plushenko more than zero be sanctioned so it's a judge issue. It doesn't really apply to 6.0.

    But the point about why the obsession with transitions I missed. Non stop movement for movement sake is very popular among a lot and believed to make everything harder. People like crazy non stop movement for no reason!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  25. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2001
    Messages:
    2,478
    I think some people just don't like that the majority of Canadian skaters come into competitions prepared and really read up on the criteria that is published regarding the different aspects of the PCS. Anyone can do it-- Canada just seems to excel much more than anyone else. It's like an open-note test and there are always some people who won't even bring the notes to class.

    Look at the short program of Duhamel/Radford. Easily the most transitions of the pairs short. Do the marks reflect that? No. The choreography was actually pretty complex, too.
     
  26. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,443
    I just saw this and even though every jump is treated the same they vary so wildly in difficulty!
     
  27. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,014
    not relevans, and isn't true... but maybe , because he skated mostly under the old system?? hm?
     
  28. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,089
    The factors on the PCS are less for the SP as opposed to the FS. They are 1.0 for the SP as opposed to the 2.0 for the FS.
     
  29. beepbeep

    beepbeep Resident Rude Brazilian

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,389
    Wasn't he supposed to be a reasoning, calming voice through this? No?
    :watch:
     
  30. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    We look many people blame Chan when he wins. It's because Chan wins often with big errors. If he won with clean programs, nobody would yell anything.