Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Not sure Yagudin's comments of Chan are related to Plushenko's opinion of who should have won in London because Yagudin only spoke of the men's SPs in London. Besides, Yagudin mentioned Chan before in the context of the 2012 Worlds where he appreciated the complexity of Chan's program and the fact that he was the only one top skater attempting two quadruple jumps in the free skate, of which one in combination with a triple jump. I know Yagudin got stuck in an airport for eight hours at some point during Worlds this year and maybe he didn't have a chance there to watch men's free. But anyway, I've rarely heard Yagudin commentate on scores or results of competitions, perhaps he shies away from expressing his opinion because he admitted in the past that he was not very familiar with all the intricacies of the COP and that he would be interested to study the system in depth only if he could compete himself or decided to coach skaters. When he was asked about Vancouver for instance, he only stated that Plushenko was the strongest skater out there but that he lost because he probably ignored some rules.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  2. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    What was Larry Craig's connection to figure skating? :confused:
     
  3. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    :)
    You can not imagine it? He said believe me, if you like it or not. If i have time i will look for you. The reporter also said this, if you remember.... I love better Plush like Yag, but I won't lie, just because I want to say bad thing on Yag. :(
     
  4. bek

    bek Guest

    Well I know in one of their shows, Dave and Jenny were commentating that a lot of figure skaters don't pay attention. They don't like the new system.
     
  5. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    When he gets level 3 and 4 on spins and steps what other conclusion can he reach about having adapted successfully to the cop system? Everything about choreo and depends on taste. Zeroes for him in tr aren't going to happen. So I think you must have an issue with the technical callers!!
     
  6. bek

    bek Guest

    I do want to say this Plushenko actually has praised and complimented Chan's skating in the past. His issue was Chan winning with that many mistakes in the long, not the quality of Chan's skating.
     
  7. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    There are specified criteria for judging choreography and transitions. The evaluation does not just depend on "taste".
     
  8. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Link, please! Or you made it up.

    I don't believe Yagudin ever said that skating is boring.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    A false medal? That's one I haven't heard before. Were there other false medals in Vancouver?

    Plushenko is right in saying that he competed successfully under the IJS. He got great results, he got decent levels (one of the first skaters to receive level 4 on steps, BTW) and he did enough to win and medal at every event he completed. He may not check off every bullet point, but he does enough to accumulate points. I believe it was explained after Vancouver and since then that it's all about accumulating points, no matter how one does it?

    I am hardly a Plushenko uber, but this sort of revisionist history is just annoying.
     
  10. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This is the thing. Like posted above he does fulfill the criteria of all elements of pcs. His statement associated transitions and jumps if he said it was in fact wrong. Between all technical elements. And the issue of choreography is a pcs category he has fulfilled too. So if someone was to say no choreo and plushenko deserved a zero that is taste. But he does fulfill choreo and transitions. Like judges could have absolutely given Him zeroes in transitions and choreography iF he didn't fulfill any of the bullet points to their view. but he did so in a way it is taste if someone can say he has no choreo - he's doing something but its not choreo- there have been arguments over hips and lips and some would have that zero.

    But it is also important to say his spins and steps Recieved levels under IJS. There is a no level sp and st so if plushenko was not a IJS skater the technical caller would have given plushenko sp or st with asterisks or the new feature of spinb which means basic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  11. SGrand

    SGrand Member

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    I forget where I saw the article, probably on this thread, but when I read it it seemed to me that it was the reporter who came to the conclusion that Yagudin thought FS was boring because he didn't watch it anymore.
     
  12. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I like that one.
     
  13. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    If the issue was Chan's PC score, it's not unusual for a skater with multiple mistakes to score higher on the program components than a clean skater. Take Hanyu at Worlds for instance. Hanyu had a poor SP skate with a fall on the quad and a failed jump combination - I suppose that missing two jump passes out of three is multiple mistakes for a short program. However, Hanyu beat the same clean Denis Ten on the PC mark, not by much but he did. Obviously, the judges thought that Hanyu, in spite of two major mistakes, met the PC criteria a little better than Denis.:)

    Yagudin did say that some time last year after Worlds but don't ask me to provide the link because it would take me forever to find it after a little less than a year. For a skater like Yagudin who competed in the era of quads, the rarity of quads in skaters' programs was a disappointment and it was boring to see the skaters were not pushing themselves athletically. He commentated that no top skater in Nice other than "the Canadian kid" attempted two quadruples in the free skate as opposed to Salt Lake City where the top five men all had two - Goebel had three. But he conceded in another interview that the skating of today is more complex than it used to be and that it is more difficult for skaters under the current system to win titles and medals than it was for him and the skaters in his generation. Not only do you have to do some hard jumps but you also need high level spins, intricate footwork and linking moves and you need to execute everything at high speed and maintain that speed til the end. He concluded that all in all, figure skating was moving in the right direction though.

    Yagudin doesn't watch figure skating competitions very often. I suspect that when you've been skating since the age of four, figure skating can get you bored sometimes and you want to do something else than watching skaters. I had to laugh when I read somewhere that David Wilson had never seen Hanyu skate until he was asked to choreograph for him although David is actively involved in competitive skating as a fs choreographer.:lol:
     
  14. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    That one's a Riot XD

    I have to say Chan should probably take notice of this and watch his back next season,
    It was arguably enough for the right piece of bad press at the right time to create enough of an issue with Plushenko's skating,
    Chan would'nt want that kind of bad press, It's olympics and the world is watching ...
     
  15. anna1506

    anna1506 New Member

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    I read your posts and come to the conclusion that you write, you invoke the programs that you do not remember ...
    I'm not saying that everyone does it. And that is my impression.
    Please watch the program before you write ... This is actually very important and influences opinion. Seriously ..
    You can't remember the details of each skater in 2003 .. ;)
     
  16. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    This is totally different from what lala said which was the opposite:

    You said Yagudin was talking about lacking of quad. He was standing on the Patrick Chan side. She said Yagudin dislikes Chan and has been against him.

    Again, I challenge lala (or anyone) to produce the original piece of what Yagudin said. VarBar, I believe your version more.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  17. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Do you think I lied???!!!!!OMG! Yag said, believe me. Do you read the Russian articles? I read. I will look for you the links, but I need more time, because I don't know exactly whe he said...Myabe after WCH, what was in Moscow 2011. He didn't watch it in Arena, but almost all old Russian skaters were in Moscow... Mybe you builded up an idol, what is never existed.. ;) :lol:
     
  18. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    My impression has always been that the judges realize that a skater who's made multiple mistakes will need some help to stay in what they consider a reasonable place. See Tomas Verner's marks over the years for an illustration of this phenomenon.

    I actually found the concept entertaining, but I wonder who gets to decide which medals are false and which ones are true. Perhaps in the future we can discuss false medals instead of wuzrobbing?

    Considering the level of the men's event at Vancouver, I'd be fine if they just gave Yuna an OGM as best singles skater.
     
  19. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I think the concept would make a good thread.
     
  20. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    The concept would be fun for the off-season. But I can see it already - Yuna's medals are false because she doesn't point her toes, Kostner's because she didn't do 3Lz for two seasons, Chan because he falls, Dai because he URs his quads, Hanyu because he only does good SPs, D/W and V/M because the other team's ubers said so, V/T because they have Morozov choreo and S/S because of the costumes. Javier Fernandez can keep his medals, I guess...

    Does that cover it? :D
     
  21. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    I have no reason to believe you no matter how many times you gasper and scream. I don't know you, as you yourself have said before.

    So better bring it in order to clear yourself.:p
     
  22. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    That's not what you've been going on about for years. Surely Ten put out a lacklustre programme that barely showcases what we saw skaters winning with in the 90s? Yags and Plush included two quads in the their LPs in the early part of the 2000s - that's where Chan was at here. Surely 2 quads in a programme are better than one? You seemed to have always favoured skaters who landed the quads even if they fell on other elements so I guess you really have forgotten what your arguments are and it is really amusing :rofl:
     
  23. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    "boring" is something that journalist put in the article Varbar referred to, I do not recall Yagudin said "FS is boring". He is quite actively involved in FS shows, I see no reason he feels boring about FS. But he did say he is not particularly interested in FS competitions (but I could be wrong since I use google translator to translate it into English): http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skating/143875360.html
     
  24. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This is not true. I never ever said or indicated I supported goebel winning In slc! That is the main case and 3rd was right for him. The issue has always been some kind of equal difficulty from skaters in jumps and a total rejection of the stupid idea that a quadless skate could somehow be technically superior to a skate with no quads. Once that bees old is reached hen it becomes about everything else! Like plushenko was better than gachinski in 2012 euros with gachinski 2 quads to plushenko 1 quad. And yagudin and plushenko are better than goebel. You're just not paying close enough attention to what I've been saying to comment. It's like your ignoring what I say and going on characterizations of what I said by others.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  25. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Yag performs in many shows, he earns money with them. I wanted to say that he doesn't like the competitions..Your link is an example, but i'm looking for a better one...
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  26. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Well, for ex : http://www.womanhit.ru/psychology/family/652790-aleksey-yagudin-osnova-braka-eto-dialogi.html

    two parts, with google translater
    What feelings do you see the world championships?
    Alex: "I do not watch them. Everyone is so surprised ... To be honest, I'm not interested. I've done everything in the sport that I could. It is clear that time is and will be the new champions, victory and tragedy. Why are not interested - no bright individuals. If you take the masters of the old school: Lyudmila Belousova and Oleg Protopopov, Tatiana Tarasova, Tamara Moskvina - it's really the person, people with substantial internal energy. In February, the European Championship was figure skating, which coincided with the filming of "Ice Age." And since I was a host of the show and did not ride up to three or four in the morning, like everyone else, I had the opportunity to see it. I did not feel any particular emotion. If you take the men's figure skating, it's probably only one skater, Canadian Patrick Chan, came to the fact that at one time made our top five at the Olympics - two quads. For ten years - no development. Of course, the first few years after the end of my career I was bored and wanted to get back into the sport. Just as dramatically suddenly snapped ... I think that will help knee surgery, but it did not.

    and

    You have lived long enough in America, then returned. Do not like it?
    Alex: "I actually spent in America for seven years. Four years of riding there under the direction of Tatiana Tarasova, were later tour. And after that, I went for two weeks to rest, Peter, and her mother said, "You're a long time? When going back? "And I realized that I return to America I did not want to. Everything is artificial, ranging from food and finishing with emotion. People like robots. In Russia, people are still more sincere, open to communication. Plus, here is my mentality, culture, humor. I remember when after America first time I went for a walk along the Nevsky Prospekt, was blown away: what are our girls are beautiful! Trying to look good, dress poeffektnee, albeit at a low price. But in America, people to go out, just pulled on shorts and flip-flops. Although the opportunities they often earn much more and they are good. Did I mention that my wife and I recently vacationed in Hong Kong. This city I also confess, surprised. There is also a girl for a very particular - are on the streets are beautiful thin, dark-haired. Feast for the eyes. But then we arrived in Moscow, Tatiana and I realized we did better! This is home. "
     
  27. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    :wall: It looks like Yagudin is yet another Russian skater who has food issues. :p

    If there are any elite skaters reading this thread who want advice on how to eat well in the United States, please send me a Private Message, and I'll provide :COP: advice. :saint:

    This offer is limited to elite skaters only. All others are on their own! ;)
     
  28. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    Lala, why on Earth would you include that second paragraph except to be inflammatory? Is it because Plushy and Yagudin were such bitter rivals, and Yags did live in the US and had a lot of fans here? Are you trying to alienate or demoralize his American fans? Well, it isn't going to work with me anyway. OF COURSE he prefers Russia to the USA! It's his home! I would worry about him if he didn't. And I am sure if I went to live in Russia-as much as I adore so much about the culture, history, etc., I would feel like a fish out of water. I just don't understand why you felt the need to include that second paragraph. Yags is still Number One in my book over Plushy and just about everybody else! (With exceptions for Takahashi, Lambiel, and a few others... :)
     
  29. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Holley, if you read this thread, you need to know, some members said I lied..I wanted to show I didn't.... And good luck to your favorites!
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  30. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    Yes, about the first paragraph information about not liking skating competitions, but about hating the USA??? That second paragraph was kind of out of the blue unless I missed something upthread, and even so, it seems totally unnecessary.