Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Mar 20, 2013.
Must we? Oh wait, I forgot the obligatory emoticons... hang on... there you go.
Recant what? I have no idea what you think I l have been posting! Quadlessness is not acceptable in a win! That's it!
I just wanna know ciocio, how you unknowingly created the boxes within the boxes by quoting your own made-up quotes, but actually a pretty exact summary of the direction this thread has taken! Inquiring minds want to know.
Easily the most entertaining post in this thread.
Trying quotey things to make pwetty pwatterns
Congrats ! I try it, but I can't do it
Yes, I've said it in my previous posts in this thread. But I don't mind to repeat it one more time.
He has made the connection between Chan's win and the politics in this case, for which he has neither evidence nor knowledge of such besides his Russian background. People have been talking about politicking in Russian federation for years. I'm sure he knows something about Russian politicking. He doesn't understand, at least doesn't understand completely about IJS. Not to belittle of him, but I dare say that I am confidently believe that some of the skating fans on this board have more knowledge on IJS than Plushenko does. So he has just blindly, subjectively assume that it was the Canadian federation which has done something. In this, he has made himself more "creative", more "specific", and more standing out of the crowd of those skaters who have objected this time's scores, and made himself like a fool.
Actually, if you consider Chan could get 10 in PE if everything is perfect, 8.61 was OK for a four mistake performance. One fall gets a deduction of 0.25 from PE should be enough, I believe. Chan had two falls and two other major mistakes. The rest of the program he has attacked and detailed in such a fashion that little was affected. If he got one whole point deduction from PE and got 9.00, that should be more than enough. Plus some other imperfect places that judges felt he should be penalized, another -0.39 off from the PE. I think 8.61 in PE is perfectly acceptable.
I am still learning on this one. So I can't explain it well. I didn't mean that I've fully understood the other ones already. But CH is the most puzzled me as well.
Just to post a positive and rather sentimental one about a skater. I found the video of Todd putting his gold medal around his mother's neck. It is a very heartwarming thing to see. Just to let people take a pause from serious discussion to see a nice memory of skating in its hey day. Hope the link works
This is his opinion, and he is not alone. So maybe in your eyes he is make a fool of himself, but not to many other people. But yes, it is nonetheless valid opinion by you. Now I know what you meant. Thanks for explaining that.
If you assume Chan's PE should be 10 if he is clean, your argument probably is OK. But then judges should use the same logic for other skaters too. It is THE mark gives people an impression about how the skaters perform the program (good or bad), hence with 4 major mistakes he can still get that mark, the system needs a second thought (or the judges).
I think my argument is valid, but hey I am a layman, so
I remember this. He is one of my favorite skaters, there is always something exquisite in his movements.
Thank you, lovely video...
Ummm shouldn't all skaters be trying to do this? Coaches and choreographers who don't understand the system are not going to get much business from competitive skaters if they can't figure the system out.
That is my point, this point actually is for the choreogragher, not the skaters themselves, or the complain should be, not for what skater put on ice.
For example, Chan got 9 for this messy performance, if a skater cannot handle this program, could u call it a good choreography? or u would say that Chan had skated it relatively good once so he could do it, hence the programe is suitable for him. then apparantly the judging here was not based on what happened on ice, but what Chan could do.
I disagree that Chan's performance was messy in terms of choreography or implying that falls on jumps = can't do choreography. Chan had mistakes on his jumps but the rest of his skating and his movements were complete and finished with refinements. Chan never seemed lost skating to the spirit of the program even with the jumping mistakes.
Mistakes on jumps have nothing to do with choreography. Whilst he made mistakes on jumps, he did the rest of the program without a problem.
It is true that a choreographer can give a skater all the choreography in the world but unless the skater executes it then it is pretty much irrelevant. But in Chan's case he carried out quite successfully what he was given and probably gave it more than just putting in a average performance in that regard.
And that's one good thing about CoP.
Few years ago, Figure Skating was all about the jumps, and when skaters made mistakes on jumps, the program was painful to watch.
Now, skaters have learnt to sell the program, even with a fall or two. that's a good thing, IMO.
The choreography mark is given not because the choreography is difficult but because the skater performed the difficult choreography with out flaw, which Patrick did.
Maybe. But it seems the majority of FS fans would like to see flawless champions..
I too prefer flawless champions but flawless performances with all the jumps completed in both programs are quite rare at Worlds. Maybe Lysacek and Buttle before him were the only ones hitting all their elements as planned when they won their world titles since the CoP was introduced?
lala, we do like 'flawless' programs but we also like to see sportsmen/women push their limits. It is easier to do a flawless program if the everything is watered down. For example, skater who won with a flawless program in junior worlds will not win with that very same program in senior worlds. The demands and level of competition is different.
I think a balance would be great. The difficult part is finding that right balance. We want people to push themselves and be ambitious with their elements and choreography, but we also don't want performances that are just full of mistakes because the skaters aren't ready to perform up to that level.
Everyone wants to see flawless programs, however the reality is skaters are human and humans make mistakes. The system takes that into account.
There is the "what" that happens on the day -- like what were the gestures, the positions in the spins, the pattern -- and the "how/how well", which in which form, technique, and transitions are a critical part of the equation. The quality can affect the "what," for example, when a skater loses speed in the spins unintentionally and the rotations no longer reflect the character or rhythm of the music. It doesn't matter what the choreographer intended if the skater can't show it. This is one of the places where PCS inflation is most damaging, as there should be no problem with giving credit for difficulty (leveling), but when there could be any or no music playing, not only should the skater lose on GOE, the skater's CH should impacted, IMO. The same is true for step sequences that could be beautifully done and very difficult, but are antithetical, to the music. A skater who slumps or skates through the music between elements should not be getting big IN or CH scores, because that skater is either doing a sad job of interpreting the choreography, regardless of how many jumps or spins are of high quality or how much emotion is shown in the big step sequence, but neither should a skater who tightens up or telegraphs before jumping or slows down into spin entrances, but does intricate or expressive things between elements. Weaving in and out between performing and keeping form and strength of gesture and attempting elements should be a real drag on scores. When it's not, and skaters are disproportionately rewarded or at least not dinged for PCS inconsistencies, it's the same argument against doing simpler things well: why bother when it isn't rewarded?
If this sounds like getting credit or dinged twice, just as a skater is given credit in the TR scores for difficult entrances and exits from the jumps, I think this is correct, and it's also correct to neutralize gains when difficult things are executed but are anti-musical. PCS are meant to gauge specific characteristics throughout the duration of the program, and the elements are key to all of the PCS categories, although they are by no means the only parts of the program in which PCS should be assessed.
I disagree, and so do the bullet points: the elements are key parts of the choreography and interpreting the music, although by no means the only parts. For the most part, Chan performed a lot of difficult and music appropriate "what," and he did it very well, but his mistakes, while a small percentage of the program, affected both, as he missed seconds here and there of his program (the "what") and the awkwardness of these particular mistakes affected the overall quality. One of the issues with setting a few high standard is that there is a much greater contrast and impact when someone falters.
That isn't to say I think he should have been dumped. I wasn't there, and there are many things that aren't as important live because other things balance them out, but look much worse on camera.
Its a competition where somebody is suppose to win. Its ridiculous for the system not to heavily taken into account mistakes. Its a competition!
Of course, but in swimming or skiing, you can still win with a mistake or 2, and no one complains !
But not in gymnastics, or rhythmic gymnastics, synchronised swimming, these sports are also artistically sports.
But in sking cant win by falling. You are,out of competition. Might win in sj
you can win by little mistakes provided your main,competitor does the same.
You can actually apply the pc marks to any sport. How basketball sat,the like how the basket is made add +3,oohio state, where eveb though made,basket add the 3 points for making it but deduct -2 for hiw made. Swimming leys say came in first but didnt stay in middle of lane deduct 2. Sking miss gate but went back deducut or add extra 30 seconds on time. Football hit goal post but didnt fall over line add 1 point. Baseball ball looked good until ended up foul add 2 points. Soccer scoreless but tried real hard and played in snow losing team gets 2 points
The pc scored applied randomly and not strictly accordingly to the rules for everyone can make a world of difference and mess up the so called sport
Completely different. Swimming is not a judged sports. In swimming as long as you use the appropriate stroke (ie not using freestyle in the breastroke) nobody judges how you get to the finish line. There's no extra points for the beautiful stroke. Its whoever gets their first wins. Same with skiing except for ski jumping and then each jump is judged differently not all in one performance)...As you as you ski appropriately its all about who gets their first.
Skating is different. Its a judged sport so giving someone high marks for things like performance/execution when said person's performance is littered with visible glaring errors is troubling.
This is different its a judged sport with all one performance together. And some people get hit.
Reality is in every sport you have to perform well on game day. Basketball players don't get to start out with a huge point cushion when game day happens. Lindsey Vonn doesn't get to start out on the finish line sooner than everyone else. They all have to perform and theirs objective measurements.
Now skating is judged and so it is subjective. But I'm sorry its problematic when someone can win with glaring errors like that. To me the fact that those errors are so glaring and obvious is why they should be taken seriously. One has to ask again if a skater is guaranteed sky high PCS no matter how they skate why have the competition? And then you have the situation that some do get hit hard when they are falling a lot and some don't. The actual performance has to matter.
And its not like Patrick just had one mistake in that free skate. People could have lived with just one mistake. He had multiple falls.
LOL what is a "mistake" in swimming. Other than a missed turn there is practically no such thing. Getting tired or losing your form is not a mistake, it is simply diminishing in quality and slowing down.
As for skiing, nobody who falls twice and stumbles/falls four or five times even crosses the finish line, never mind winning.
If you want a parallel sport to compare to how about speed skating, Dan Jansen during the 2002 Olympics after a Dutch skater fell "but this isnt figure skating Dan, when you fall you are out of contention for a medal", showing the kind of running joke figure skating and its judging had already started to come, but it is only 10 times worse now.
They most certainly do. There are rules about not starting before the signal, when you have to start stroking by after you've entered the water, what kind of suit you can wear, etc. etc., and there are officials to make sure those rules are being followed. Just because the quality of your stroke isn't being subjectively evaluated doesn't mean it's not a judged sport.
And if you beak those rules your disqualified. Huge difference.
Big music competitions such as the Tchaikovsky International Competition (and even smaller ones) have, for years, withheld the Gold Medal/First Prize if the judges feel no one has demonstrated a "winning" standard. Perhaps FS should do the same?
If it's a sport where "first over the line" wins there will never be as many comments about who won. Because our sport is judged on "Artistic evaluations and choices" (two judges, one says I love how he does this and gives a 9, one say's I hate how he does this and gives a 7) you will never make everyone happy. As long as the win fits the rules of the day (which Patrick did) nothing can be done. In 50 years time people will still say Patrick Chan won three Golds at worlds (so far).
Because all people remember about Schuba is she was the champ? If these are the rules that mistakes get so lightly punished, than the rules need to change.. Because thats what Chan's win is reminiscent of.
LOL exactly. The way Chan's victories were achieved will not be forgotten in the annals of history, they will stick out like a sore thumb, as much or more than Schuba. Atleast people acknowledge Schuba was a rightful winner under the rules of the time, and even that is not true of Chan.
Chan's first world title was brilliantly skated (in fairness)
True, I am referring to the last 2 of course.
The first in the line was after comments about how people can win in some sports while making mistakes. And what I'm saying is these people may make a small mistake but just have to beat the others in order to win. While in sports some famous players may get ref reptutation for the the NFL doesn't hand football player points before entering the field.
So yes in basketball you may miss some baskets but you still have to hit more than the other team-every time.
Yes skating is a subjective sport, but when Patrick falls twice, than makes two other major errors and scores in 89 in PCS for that mess. Very close to what he gets the few times he skates well. (And yes I'll say Patrick is normally making all kinds of mistakes)
The feeling becomes that Patrick is guaranteed a set amount of points before entering the ice. This is frankly unfair. Now yes Patrick is still going to have a much higher base no Skating skills than some other skaters. But he shouldn't be guaranteed as much points as this system many are creating.
The fact of the matter is the issue is yes its a judged sport. But in most judged sports the athletes still have to perform well. If Shawn Johnson falls off the beam, she's not going to score close to what she'd score if she didn't fall of beam. Well Chan had multiple falls of beam and was barely hit at all.
Its an issue. A huge one. The sport has to start making more penalties for errors-mandatory penalities. And nobody should be guaranteed super high scores on one half the mark before they step foot on the ice.
If this were true, then there would be (1) an overwhelming sentiment here on FSU that Jamie Salé and David Peltier should have won the Olympic Gold Medal in 2002 because of their "flawless" Free Skate, (2) far more respect here for Sarah Hughes and her two "flawless" programs at the same competition, and (3) no whining about how Evgeni Plushenko was robbed of Olympic gold in 2010.
To JJ: Says you. Sorry, but that's like believing a North Korean Leader talking about how happy his people are.
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