Plushenko’s Coach Slams Skating Judges

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Dear lala, it seems you know ME better than your idol.;) Let me just give you some statistics. Before the 1998 winter Olympics, Yagudin won the 1996-97 world bronze medal, won two 1997-98 GP events while Plushenko won 2 second places, placed 2nd after Kulik in RN, won the Euro championship, placed ahead of Plushenko in all competitions they both went, he had the highest quad success rate among all the elite skaters before the 98 Olympics. The 1998 WC maybe, because Yagudin got sick in Nagano, there's no way he could get fully recovered right after one month. That's not totally insane that the Russian Fed wanted to send someone else under that circumstance. But even so, still finally they decided to send Kulik and Yagudin, Plushenko went there only as a replacement for Kulik. And the Russian Federation wanted to send Plushenko to the Olympics? Can you give me a break?
     
  2. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    You believe me this is sure. I do not know why I arguing with you ..but you wanted it...

    Main results( Wikipedia):

    He is the 2006 Winter Olympics gold medalist, 2002 Winter Olympics silver medalist, and 2010 Winter Olympics silver medalist, three-time (2001, 2003, 2004) World champion, seven-time (2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2010, 2012) European champion, a four-time Grand Prix Final champion and a nine-time (1999–2002, 2004–2006, 2010, 2012) Russian national champion.

    Plushenko's technical achievements are numerous. He is one of the few male skaters to perform the Biellmann spin. He was the first skater in the world to perform a quadruple toe loop-triple toe loop-double loop jump (4–3–2) combination in competition, at the 1999 NHK Trophy (he has since landed his 4–3–2 combination 26 times so far). He is the first skater to have landed a quadruple toe loop-triple toe loop-triple loop (4–3–3) combination in competition, at the at the GPF Final 2002 (he has since landed his 4–3–3 combination four times so far). Plushenko is also the first skater to land a triple toe loop-triple toe loop-triple loop-double loop (3–3–3–2) combination, which was at the 2005 "ARD Gala". At the European Championships, he landed a six jump combination (3–3–2–2–2–2) in his exhibition program. He has landed a four jump combination; 4 toe loop-3 toe loop-2 loop-2 loop, at the World Championships in 2001. Plushenko has landed a consistent quadruple toe loop in competition, and has also landed a quadruple salchow in Samara, Russia at the 2004 "Second stage of Cup of Russia". It is estimated that he has landed a total of about 100 quads in competition.

    At the age of 16, Plushenko was the youngest male skater to ever receive a perfect score of 6.0. He received a total of seventy five 6.0s before the new Code of Points judging system was introduced, most of them were presentation marks!
    Plushenko is the only male figure skater in the modern history of the sport to have won three Olympic medals in singles (Gillis Grafström won four in the early years of the sport, from 1920–1932)

    Well, he was the youngest male skater ever who got perfect score for his presentation, he was the youngest male world (bronse) and european( silver) medalist (15 y.o) ever., He was the youngest male junior world champion ever(14y.o.).
    Yag has never been Russian champion, Plushy beat him every time.

    European Championships 2000, Plush was 17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc Plushy's marks and Yaudin's reaction
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  3. nikjil

    nikjil Active Member

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    While Mishin's remarks have a certain amount of irony, I think we're getting away from the discussion of several valid points. When COP was being pushed, some of the main points made by Speedy were that it was going to eliminate national bias in judging, reputation judging, block judging, and the second mark being used as a placeholder. Given the amount of discussion about Canflation that happens at every Skate Canada, Gachinski's medal at Moscow Worlds, and NHK. It seems clear that this hasn't happened and that there are some serious problems with the way the second mark is being used. I know at various times the suggestion has been made that there aren't enough judges on the panels to get a fair sampling of scores and that it is too hard for judges who have to look for so many details in the first mark to judge the PCS marks according to criterion. Is this the problem? I seem to remember that at one competition they tested having separate panels and were very embarrassed when the technical winner only got the fifth best PCS scores (something that makes perfect sense to me) and dropped the idea. So in hopes of avoiding more Olympic controversies what should be done to change the scoring system or change the judges? I've always favored the approach of actually hiring and paying judges, so that judges are less beholden to their national federations and can be fired if they turn out to not be judging according to the rules.
     
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  4. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Your point is interesting. I don't think that the CoP is any better, or any worse, than the 6.0 system as far as national bias (or skating politics, or lobbying) are concerned. Just like it's been with various systems in economics, the problem is not the way the system is designed per se, the problem is the nature of people themselves. A sport that relies entirely on judging the way figure skating does relies on the premise that judges are always fair and cannot be swayed in their judging by considerations outside the performance they are presented with. Unfortunately, human nature is such that it is simply impossible, so there is always going to be some amount of unfairness

    The only thing we can do is find in which way corruption can be contained or at least limited. I am not sure if this can be done through having paid judges, although it could be worth a try, at least.

    Another thing that I was also thinking is that large gaps in GOE should not be allowed to pass without question - there are pretty specific criteria to take into account when giving them: an instance such as the Men's SP when one jump got a +3 and a -1 is thus proof that at least one person is not doing their job properly. Another solution to limitate inflation (or deflation) through GOE would be to eliminate systematically the highest and lowest GOE (or two highest and two lowest) as it's done in many sports which also integrate an element of human judging to the evalutation of the performance
     
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  5. nikjil

    nikjil Active Member

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    I agree that COP is not any better or worse but it was sold to us as that it was going to be better. The point was made in the beginning that by being anonymous and because you could not be sure if your score was going to be used, judges would be free from being beholden to their federations, would judge without reference to nationality, and would not be able to conspire to rig an event. This does not seem to have worked and the ISU have been very unwilling to discuss the various problems that have emerged in scoring or to admit that their much-vaunted and very expensive solution to all the problems of Salt Lake City hasn't worked as promised.

    Clearly, no judged sport is ever going to be absolutely fair, no matter what scoring system you use. I went to my first Nationals in 1998, and one of my memories is Audrey Weissiger walking up and down the stairs in the old Spectrum muttering "Figure skating is not a fair sport, figure skating is not a fair sport." Having said that, if you want to remain viable as a major sport you have to be able to convince both the dedicated and casual fan that your judging system is fair and transparent. While, there are always going to be some complaints by casual fans who don't understand the sports nuances, you have to be able to explain blatant instances of biased judging (like the legitimate questions raised about the medal results in men and dance in last year's Worlds) in some reasonable manner. I have to say that none of this is helped when there are certain unnamed skaters and coaches who always scream unfair judging whenever they don't get the results they think deserve. I also think that you have to have a willingness to be able to tweak your system when problems arise and I don't see any willingness on the part of the ISU to do this.
     
  6. gingercat

    gingercat Active Member

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    I love that skaters now earn their own spots with technical scores. I am not sure if it has been mentioned that tech specialists have also been known to play games with their scores. Sad to say there areno easy answers unless we program computers to judge.
     
  7. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    As for Alexei Mishin, I think he's still promoting his philosophy(or strategy), a skate without jumping mistakes is a good skate no matter how the program components are. He might see that Mao's NHK result is another example of winning by PCS.
     
  8. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Or by cracking down on judges/callers/specialists who try to game the system to their chosen skater's or their federation's advantage. We don't know who gave which mark, but the ISU does. So the ISU can track patterns of judging or calling and should be able to see if there are consistent problems with particular individuals.

    But also, and unfortunately, if the rest of the panel has some ulterior agenda in giving their marks or calls, sometimes the evaluation that is way outside the norm is the most accurate evaluation. So the one honest judge or caller might get called on the carpet because they're not as corrupt as everyone else :(

    I think there are a lot of things that could be changed to make the current system better, in terms of accuracy, sampling, and so on, but any system is going to be flawed as long as there are flawed individuals using it who are not being held to account.

    And I know that the majority of judges and callers are honest, very hardworking people who try to do their very best and to be fair and to play by the rules. Sadly, it's the ones who don't do those things that make the whole system look bad.
     
  9. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    Mishin brought this issue up probably because he is Liza's coach ;)
     
  10. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I would like to attempt to defend Mao's PCS here. She got more or less the same score she got in China, I think it is reasonable. If we go component by component - her skating skills were the same. She did not fall, so she performed the same transitions and choreography. Her interpretation this time was even better since she was better in her timing - Mao was slightly behind the music in China, so she had to rush and left out some detailes there. In Japan, she was right on time and performed everything between the elements as planned.

    I still think Akiko should have won, but from PCS point of view I found Mao's performance to be on the same level as in China.
     
  11. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I think he's just politicking for his skater. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
  12. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    Down with the judges who gave higher marks to our non-favourites! :soapbox:
     
  13. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Whatever it is, it's almost getting to the Olympic season now, let the political war begin. :cool:
     
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Well that's the system he lived for many years. And he was able to solidify that belief because his top skaters were all jumpers and winning most of the time.

    Other coaches like Morosov, Carroll and Nicks were able to adapt to COP and milk the system for their skaters' success. Mishin was only able to do so for a certain degree (the elements were COP friendly but not the program). Instead of complaining, perhaps he really should try to work on his skaters' skating (not just jumping). Tuk for example needs to be faster. With his skaters' jumping prowess, if they could also earn high PCS, they could be very competitive and wouldn't need to skate clean and still have to wait for better skaters to make mistakes. Morosov's skaters also had horrible programs but received high PCS because of their speed (Ando, Amodio). MIshin should really work along that path.
     
  15. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    But you're defending the PCS, not the win.

    I can't think of any other questionable result where there was pretty much 100% agreement and no debate about whether the skater did/did not deserve his/her placement. Even a few cases which to my mind were perfectly clear had some debate. For example, the Italians World title in 2001 - some argued that Babs's superior skills justified it. Or Yunah Kim's SP scores in 2010, which some defended on the basis of PCS.

    It's interesting, given that Mao is a skater who is highly respected and quite loved by fans worldwide. Even Mao herself appeared to know that she wuz gifted. It's not the same as Oksana versus Nancy -Oksana being technically low as Mao was. But the argument was that Nancy was wooden and lacking in artistry, which isn't something anyone would say about Akiko.
     
  16. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

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    I've read Russian fed wanted to send young Plushy but Mishin insisted Yagudin should go because he was 2nd and Plushy was 3rd at the 1998 Russian Nationals.
     
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Really? They would rather leave the reigning worlds bronze medallist at home? And didn't Yagudin rocked Cup of Russia that year too?
     
  18. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    You are just being sarcasm, right? Sometimes it is difficult to tell:confused:
     
  19. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Well isn't it the same thing? Asada had a sizeable lead (over Suzuki) after the short. She didn't need to win the free, she just needed to win overall. So her poor jumping in the free was partly compensated by her short program lead and partly by her non jump elements, GOEs and PCS in the free which weren't all that affected by the insane popping of jumps. I think it's totally justified and the math made sense.

    It's not like Leonova or Amodio scoring high PCS for nothing. Asada actually earned her PCS. It's just unfortunate because the math worked out that way and she was able to barely squeeze in for the win with a poor free skate.
     
  20. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    ? I am just very surprised to hear that The Rus Fed was even considering leaving Yagudin home for Plushenko when at the time Yagudin was the reigning worlds bronze medallist and had won his GPs and Euros leading to Nagano. And he also placed second at Nationals. Plushenko lost to Yadugin at the GP, at Nationals and at Europeans that season.

    Sending Yagudin over Plushenko is the most natural idea, isn't it?
     
  21. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

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    Maybe so, and maybe not. Who knows!



    I found another Mishin interview about the Grand Prix Final. In this interview he told the weapon of the finalists.

    Mishin's favorite is obviously Akiko Suzuki :D
     
  22. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    I think the time line for me here is a bit mixed, that is why I thought you were being sarcasm.

    Sending Plushenko over Yagudin was never the case as far as 1998 Olympics was in concern, he was too young at the time. And he did not have many experiences in senior competitions.

    I think here people mixed two event: 1998 Olympics and 1998 Worlds
    Yagudin only was placed 5th (or 4th?) in Olympics 1998. Mishin was not happy because Yagudin's lost was sort of related to his own careless about his health (something about going out without drying his hair or ate something wrong, nevertheless he got sick before the LP competition).

    Yagudin himself felt that Mishin was angry at him and in favor of bringing Plushenko instead him going into World 1998 (he mentioned in his autobiography), which is what other poster mentioned above: Mishin actually insisted Yagudin should go, but Mishin brought Plushenko with him in case Kulik would withdrawn.

    The rest you all know, Yagudin won his first World title in 1998, so did Plushenko for his first World medal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  23. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

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    Really. At least Mishin said so. although am not sure if FSU posters can believe his remark, here i have found that interview ;)

    And I have to say "sorry", I made a mistake. I wrote "Rus fed wanted to send Plushenko, even if Yagudin was 2nd and Plushenko was 3rd at 98 Nats." this is not correct. Sorry it's not '98 Nationals, but '98 Europeans :swoon:

    I think Mishin is a man who has been easily misunderstood :)

    By the way I don't know why people started attacking Plushy here. Because of the title "Plushenko's coach"?
    So what do people think about others who told Akiko was robbed? Why people don't attack their family or friend? Because others don't have a thread that is named "xxx's family Slams Skating Judges"?
    I saw not a few people are talking about the judging at NHK. But nobody is flamed as it happens here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  24. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    No, at 98 Euros Yagudin was first and Plushenko second. At 98 Nats Kulik was first, Yagudin second and Plushy third. ;)
     
  25. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

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    I made FSU confusing again.. Thanks for correction :40beers:
     
  26. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    http://www.sportsdaily.ru/articles/z...y-proekt-48570

    - Yagudin was strongly jealous of Plushenko?
    - I treated them very balanced. Lyosha (Yagudin) does not know or may not believe, but the head of our Federation Valentin Piseev wanted to send Plushenko to the Olympics in Japan, while Yagudin won the European Championship, and Zhenya (Plushenko) was the second. I defended the principle of sports and said immediately "Yagudin will go to the Olympics."

    This is what I read too....
     
  27. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    What Marco said - I thought most complaints were that Mao was held up by her PCS. Also, I think the reason why not too many Mao fans are defending Mao's win here is not because we think she won unfairly, but because many of us don't like to see her win like that anyway, even if it's justifiable. I don't want to speak for everybody, but this is my general impression.
     
  28. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Yadda yadda yadda, if he's talking about Mao winning at NHK, I agree with him, and thank him for speaking up. But we've seen this before, and we'll see it again. It's nothing new.

    Just as long as we don't see it at the Olympcs (which we won't), I'm okay with it. That's the one event that has stayed pretty much legit over the years.
     
  29. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Now at least we know where this delusional story came from.:rolleyes:

    And I remember he mentioned couple of times before the 2002 Olympics, he made it like he helped Yagudin got the 1998 Olympic spot. But whoever knows their competing records and with a normal brain would believe that story? Not only he won the bronze medal in 97 WC, was one of the boys contributed a little something to that two spots, but also was strong all the way through the following season. The Russian Fed had two gold medal contenders and they wanted to send Plushenko?:rolleyes:
    Yagudin used to say that some dramas were created by Alexei Mishin, I sort of believe him now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  30. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I am inclined to think this story is as true as the one Mishin told us about how he taught the 4A to Yagudin with good results.:lol: