Plushenko’s Coach Slams Skating Judges

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Ah yes, but for example when Jeremy Abbott misses his jumps (he is entirely capable of landing everything on a good day), his PCS marks are still generally quite high. Why? Because he is a brilliant all-around skater with good technique and superb artistry, and that is what true figure skating is all about.

    It seems to me that the judges do as they wish and they tend to give high PCS to highly regarded jumpers who still have work to do in refining their presentation skills. It actually took awhile before Jeremy was well-rewarded on PCS, even when he made mistakes on his jumps (so he is probably more of an exception re low technique scores and high PCS).
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  2. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Abbott at least doesn't typically get held up a full place or two with PCS. When he bombs, he drops in the standings.

    Like I said, I understand the point of measuring all the PCS marks differently. I wouldn't have too much problem with it all if the judges consistently at least attempted to judge them correctly (I love seeing variations in the components). But they clearly use the PCS as placeholders which is why I laugh when people say "How can so and so have such a high TR score :eek:" cause we all know that's not what the judges are measuring. Also, some skaters really do show less interpretation, skating skills, and certainly performance/execution on the days they are falling all over the ice.
     
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Sure Abbott would receive higher PCS if he was more consistent with his jumps, but still his PCS are quite high when he makes mistakes the last couple of seasons anyway (because he has had great, well-regarded programs, and because he moves so beautifully on the ice). You should review Abbott's recent marks at Skate America and TEB -- you'll see that his PCS are very high compared to those ahead of him. He drops when he doesn't skate well due to low TES marks, not low PCS.

    Well if it was "in spite of," the "in spite" had everything to do with where the event was taking place, IMHO!

    Come on, this was Gachinski's Worlds debut as a senior, and he was really rough around the edges, and he hasn't improved much at all since then in regard to flow over the ice, lines and stretch, even though he has a body that begs to be positioned in aesthetically pleasing ways ... yeah ok, but I'm not gonna rephrase that. :lol:

    Gachinski as a first timer at Worlds 2011, was clearly favored, whereas skaters like Ross Miner and Richard Dornbush (also first timers who had less work to do than Gachinski regarding improving presentation skills, were completely low-balled for skating clean as a whistle programs). I don't care about Gachinski's quads, Miner and Dornbush are more talented skaters than Gachinski re polished flow over the ice and overall skating skills (although Dornbush needs to relax his shoulders more).

    At Worlds 2011, did Brezina and Takahashi and Oda tank? Did Amodio land a quad? Why is Amodio so consistently scored high on PCS, with all the mugging and posing he does?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  4. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    How on earth Dornbush and Ross Miner clearly more talented, is it due to their nationality? not everyone agrees on the statement universally so don't declare as the ultimate truth. in the World 2011, Gachinski was able to perform well on that night and deserved his scores. As for other you mentioned, Well Brezina always tanks, Takahashi started his program with a single toe, fell on his 3s, had trouble with his axel and received and edge call on his Lz. oda had trouble counting 3t and Zayaked on his 2nd jump (that must be some kind of record). Gachinski managed to put together a very good SP and LP in that competition hence the medal.
     
  5. GoGreen

    GoGreen New Member

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    Yeah, the audience who paid thousands of $$$ on tickets and travel to watch skating live knew nothing about PCS criteria and care nothing about figure skating, only FSU posters sitting in front of computers do, :rofl:

    I wonder why ISU is ignoring our precious posters/experts here!!! Who cares if the stadium is filled or not? Who cares about empty seats? Who cares about what the audience love to watch? Let's keep a handful of our FSU posters here happy, cause they are the BACKBONES of Figure Skating!
     
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  6. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat Member

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    As if you are the expert of experts.
     
  7. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat Member

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    As far as I know North American are biased against Plushenko. I know they don't like Russian at all, and what happened to Slutskaya and B/S in 2002.
     
  8. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    You'll see what you want to see, I suppose.
     
  9. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :watch:

    :EVILLE: North Americans!
    Plushenko's coach :revenge: North Americans Watch out in Sochi... :angryfire
     
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Come on, I don't dislike Gachinski -- he's really cute, and I love those long limbs of his, he just doesn't seem to know how to use them in a completely effective and aesthetically pleasing way. Sure, he's improving somewhat, but he may need a different coach to fully explore his ahhhh ... artistic side. No double entendres intended. ;)

    If I enjoy a skater, I don't care what their nationality is. And in fact, IMHO skaters should be rated according to overall abilities and talent level, not politics based on country of origin.


    ETA:
    I'm still in love with Ilia, Sasha Abt, Urmanov, Stephane, Takahashi, Verner, and I admire Jeff Buttle, adore Fernandez, and deeply respect Brian Joubert (but I have been turned off by Amodio's skating under Morosov). I think Kozuka is extremely talented and Hanyu is too precocious and over-scored on PCS, but he can land quads with such amazing ease, especially in his sps. A fairly scored Chan who is trying hard to improve artistically can be endearing. I'm not enamored of Oda, but I enjoy watching Denis Ten and I wish D10 had Oda's jump consistency. :)


    And obviously I said that Ross and Richard IMO are more talented in their flow over the ice and overall skating skills than Gachinski, which is not surprising since Gachinski's coach, Mishin, seemingly over-emphasizes jumps to the exclusion of other aspects of skating. So, okay, Gachinski has great jumping skills and can land different quads or used to be able to land quads more consistently, but now for some reason he's had problems with jumps lately.

    In addition, I did not say Ross and Richard were "clearly more talented." I did say that Gachinski was "clearly favored" at Worlds 2011, even as a first timer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  11. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    Agree.
    Rather, I have a problem with Mao's TES than PCS.
    Mao's spins were not that good at NHK(both SP&LP).
     
  12. yaya124

    yaya124 New Member

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    1. Mishin is entitled to say so, he is in the business for so many years, why you think as a fan you know more than him? He might insist on letting his skaters have solid jumps, that is not a crime;

    2. Mishin is not afraid of pointing these problems out because he does not think Plushenko is scored purely by his reputation. No matter how surprise you may, Plushenko is an elite skater with top level skills;

    3. Jump is not everything in figure skating, but if you cannot nail jumps, you will need more metal power to hold yourself executing your jumps. So it is safe to say jumps are very important. And if you fell, the program looks not well for those fans watching live. Specially those sitting high up cannot follow the excellent foot work so closely as the ones sitting in front of TV or computer. And believe it or not, Plushenko has also top level skating skills.

    4. I guess, everyone just see what they want to see. Just like after almost three years, everybody's mind is still at Vancouver.

    PS: I hate when people saying that Plushenko stop developing himself after Yagudin retired. He landed 433 after that, and he has numerous very beautiful programs after that too. It is a pity that he is not at his prime in 2006 (and in 2010), but it does not mean that he is sitting back rely purely on his reputation. It is so easy to blame him on doing what he did since you are not the one out there fighting for every elements. Do not forget he is only a human. 2005 he had two major surgeries and when he came back, no body believed that he could win again. He won. Even if he is over scored, he is still the CLEAR winner in 2006. And he tried to return on 2007 but the recovery after the surgery was not very well so he postponed his coming back. Can you imagine someone after 3 and half year out of competitive skating can come back like him?

    Back to Mishin's comments, he speaks things which are already discussion here. So because he is Mishin that he cannot say so? PS, he mentions NHK not COR, probably because the journalist did not ask him about it. How do you know that he would think V/T's score at COR is fair? Actually what he said here is fair enough since 2014 Olympics is in Russia, Russian would certainly have home advantage. Why he talks like that if he does not want a fair play?
     
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  13. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    Tha chanadian audience never booed Plushenko.:confused: In 2010 he didn't have the skating of his life but you can check on youtube that they enjoyed his programs in 2001 at Worlds or 2004 at SC. He got standing ovations. He also have devoted fans in Chanada which appreciate him since he first appeared on ice. ;)
     
  14. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Then you don't know very much. Plenty of North American skating fans like plenty of Russian skaters. It is true that Plush and Slute were not among the favourite, but Yags sure was loved her. And B/S had a huge North American fan following.

    What you say is a ludicrous as saying that all Russians dislike North American skaters.
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Well, not wanting him to win the competition based on his performances against others is not the same as hating and booing him. I think every reasonable fan appreicates his skating ability and longevity but has different view on the appeal of his skating - and that's fine. But being in a competition means
    he is subject to the rules of the game like every other competitor. He might not like how the current PCS works but until something is changed, he is still going to have to work his transitions and edges and skate more on one foot if he wants to improve his PCS. What I don't understand is why he or his coach or some of his fans seem to so firmly believe that as long as he is clean he automatically deserves high PCS regardless of whether he fulfills the criteria, but god forbid someone else like Asada who actually fulfills the criteria wins a competition based on GOE, PCS and a lead over the short program, it suddenly means the system is rotten.

    IIRC, he did get booed when he hopped onto the top of the podium.
     
  16. nenne

    nenne New Member

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    because Plushenko's skating is not only clean but full of difficulties,and artistic .Cann you understand that?
     
  17. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I think B/S were absolutely dragged through the mud after SLC, by both the NA media and the more casual fans who get most of their skating knowledge from it.

    I don't think this means that NA fans are necessarily biased against Plushenko, but the media does like to portray him as something of a villainous Russian (a portrayal he has played along with at times).

    Though he will never admit it, I am sure Mishin knows that Plushenko has been generously marked at times. However, as others have noted, he did win fairly, even if the margins were sometimes too big; when he skated poorly (e.g. 2004 Euros), his placement reflected it. And I do agree with Mishin that the way PCS (and even GOEs) are used to hold up top skaters, especially when they are off-form, seems to be becoming more blatant - and reputation scoring is something the IJS was supposedly meant to prevent.
     
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  18. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    I do not agree with Mishin's opinion about PCS or Asada's gold. I just wanted to remind that Canadians appreciated Plushenko when he delivered good performances.
     
  19. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    The "Russian villain" image is used since he was competing with Yagudin and is all about media and advertising :lol:, I can't believe people still buy it.:eek: The fluffs about Yagudin who moved to US to train with Tarasova vs Plushenko who stayed in cold Russia with Mishin (insert Lenin's picture right here :D) are absolutely brilliant. :rofl:
     
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  20. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Look at this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKdoodCaJw Figure Skating Gala Complete Event | Vancouver 2010

    Plushenko from 1:08 , listen to the audience, and he got standing ovation at that time..:p

    He has many fans in Canada since 1998, when they saw him at first..
     
  21. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Of course,, this is the reason...Yagudin lived in US, he won his Oly gold in SLC etc. Plushenko and Mishin were invited a skating club to Florida- if I right remember- but they didn't want to move. Plushy said Russia is home...Plushy could have been a movie star in US, he received an offer to an American movie, but dismissed it. I think he would have been very very popular :)
     
  22. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Then Yagudin can be a poster boy for someone who has a congenital body defect but still managed to win lots of big titles in a very short period. Plushenko has to count the silvers to beat him. So why you have to compare Plushenko with him? We have skaters like Tod Eldredge who won a world medal at the age of 30. And yet he still pushed himself for a quad at that age. And Stojko, who has numerous injuries too, managed to win a silver world medal when he's 28 and could land 2 quads in the competition when he's almost 30. When Plushenko competed in 2010 Olympic, he's even younger than any of them, with such a weak field by that time, if he landed two quads, I am sure he could have won. Then he did not have to complain about the judges or anything.
     
  23. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    I don't know from Adam about Plushenko as I don't pay much attention to Men's skating which I find consistently boring, but audience reaction does not equal judges' scores. Sometimes a skater or a program is very popular with an audience even when the score deserved is not so high and vice versa. Not at all saying this is the case with any particular skater, least of all Plushenko who to my knowledge was always wildly popular with audience in the US back in the Champions on Ice days, but its really quite silly to argue over audience reaction as if it were a proxy for judges marks.
     
  24. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Hello! I remember you. It seems you are a real Plushy hater, who hasn't exact information. His skating has improved steadily and he was the skater who has quickly adapted to the changes of the rules. And it's so boring to say, Plush is not artistic. I showed you thousand different opinions-for ex. Maya Plisetskaya, or Nikolai Tsiskaridze, famous ballet dancers-and his artistry marks. And if you mentioned Abbot, he is too boring for me, no real charisma, nothing originality, nothing diversity, he is always acting that he is so artist on ice... Of course, because he can't jump.:lol: How can be compared a skater to Plushenko, who didn't win a lousy GP??:lol:
     
  25. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Yagudin beat Plushy, and that victory was well-deserved in SLC. But Plush beat him many times, when Plushy was almost a kid. Yagudin is older almost 3 years. Yag's fans often forget it. :)
     
  26. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Can you read? The record I mentioned above has anything to do with the ages? Oh yeah, it has, Plushenko competed much longer than Yagudin.
     
  27. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Hi there, lala. I don't think anyone can forget you either, even if they might want to, particularly when it comes to supporting your iconic hero. :p I'm sure many would say the same about me regarding my support for Johnny Weir. :saint:

    One difference though is I don't express my views to get people to think the way I do. I also realize that Johnny is not perfect and that there are things about Johnny I wish were different in terms of some of his choices re his skating career. But since he doesn't owe me anything, I appreciate everything Johnny has given to the sport and all the moments I have enjoyed watching him skate. While I will continue to mention my Johnny viewpoints when I see fit and to debate with Johnny critics when I feel so moved, ultimately I don't care so much about others' perceptions which I have no control over. We can all express ourselves (politely to the extent that we can) and hold on to our individual ways of looking at things, or gain new perspectives that don't detract from our overall ways of seeing, but perhaps offers us growth, new ideas, new understanding and balanced enlightenment. Or, we can just agree to disagree. ;)

    You are "entitled" to your perceptions. But I'm "entitled" to point out: I hate that Johnny didn't skate well enough in the fp at 2006 Olympics to hold onto a medal, and I hate that Plushy's weak sp was rated over Johnny's iconic Swan sp, butt I don't hate Plushy. He's quite handsome, charming, and a legendary figure skater. Many who criticize Plushy's skating have enjoyed watching his performances over the years and respect his indefatigable devotion and determination in continuing to strive for athletic excellence.

    There's a lot about Plushy's drive and will to win that is admirable and worthy of deep respect, but unfortunately there is also something about it that to me seems arrogant and pathological in the sense that skating is so much his life that he seems to fear he is nothing without it, and that is completely not true. I love what Plush has given to the sport and meant to the sport in so many ways, and I wish he could be satisfied with all that he has accomplished and proven to himself, to his biggest fans and to his admirers worldwide. And I would love to see him being happy off the ice and touring in professional competitions and being honored as an Ambassador to the Sochi Games, and lighting the Olympic torch. :)

    I would also love to see Mishin retire, and Gachinski taken under the wing of Tarasova (given daily rigorous ballet training) and molded into a skater with awe-inspiring artistry and full command of his prodigious powers. If that were to happen, I could maybe love Gachinski in a way that might even surpass my love for Ilia Kulik and Sasha Abt. :swoon:
     
  28. GoGreen

    GoGreen New Member

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    I remember Plushenko performed in hundreds and hundreds of shows in U.S. over a decade. In fact, I think he did more shows in U.S. than most north american skaters. Scott Hamilton still tried to invite him to perform in U.S. after Vancouver. I guess the show organizers did not conduct market research before sending out invitations?

    And I did not hear any displeasure from the Vancouver audience. On the contrary, they gave him a big standing ovation for his gala performance, as the Eurosport commentator mentioned, not only the crowd, but also everyone around the rink were applauding what they saw.
     
  29. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  30. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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