Plushenko’s Coach Slams Skating Judges

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. Sugar

    Sugar Well-Known Member

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  2. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: And for additional proof of that, he only has to look at his own athlete......
  3. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    except that Plushenko didn't win at an event while having a meltdown ;)
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    When Plushenko skated poorly which was very rare (a melt down only once in my memory- the 2000 worlds LP), the judges did mark him down. He finished in 4th, after placing 1st in the SP. He finished second couple of times (to Sandhu and Joubert- once each).

    Mishin said what many posters on this board said, although I am not sure about the home field advantage since the skater that suffered due to the bias is also Japanese.
  5. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    Mishin should only look at the shite I/K put on the ice in Japan if he wants to complain about generous PCS scores. :p
  6. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    what about vol/tra marks at Rostelecom this year?
    always the foreigners....

    we´re all in those discussions about chan, asada vs. suzuki at nhk, vol/tra at CoR. but let´s face it. this is figure skating with all it´s drama around :drama:
  7. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Meltdown or no meltdown, IMO Plushenko is the poster boy for skaters who have received outlandish components marks for reasons other than their actual skating.
  8. GoGreen

    GoGreen New Member

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    Speak for yourself. ;) Plushenko is the POSTER BOY of many things, as testified by standing ovations after standing ovations after his performances. I don't see any booing from the audience for his "outlandish" marks, instead, the audience always cheered his marks enthusiastically.

    And repeating stuff a thousand times won't make it more true. Keep preaching! You may get somewhere some time. Amen! :lol:
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  9. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    What? Plushy got standing ovations when he finished his programs. His victories were well-deserved, always.
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: :respec:

    Or athlete(s) ... e.g., Gachinski at "home-cooking" Moscow Worlds.

    ETA:
    Of course Plushy usually deserved his wins, but IMHO, after Yags retired Plushy had no one pushing him technically and artistically and he got a little lazy re challenging himself to improve, until the new wave of skaters began showing what sublime artistry is all about: Lambiel, Buttle, Weir, Takahashi, Abbott, and with his SS, Chan. Ironically, it was quadless but determined Evan who trumped Plush at 2010 Olympics.

    Plush being scored so highly at 2006 Olympics in the sp over Johnny Weir's iconic Swan was mainly due to rep scoring. Plush was relying on his jumps, his charisma, and his reputation rather than improving his artistry, transitions and full body movement. Now Plush is trying to meld artistry with his jumps at the age of 30, which I think is rather too late. I'd prefer seeing Plush compete on a senior professional tour than seeing him make a comeback for Sochi, but I do bow down before his strength of will. However, it's a shame to see many Russian skaters in the mold of Plush, rather than in the mold of Urmanov, Kulik, Abt, and Yags.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  11. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Plushenko is a poster boy for consistently landing very difficult jumps- better than anyone else- and pushing himself constantly to improve, despite injuries, for being competitive for years after his contemporaries can't do it anymore or don't want to (no knock on Yagudin or Kulik). Other skaters can learn a lot from him.

    Quite frankly, it was unnecessary to bring Plushenko into this. Mishin expressed his opinion about the recent judging, and many would agree with him, but they don't have to. People see things differently.
  12. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ Correct-a-mundo!
  13. Wiery

    Wiery Well-Known Member

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    Very well said!
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    As if the audience actually knows the PCS criteria.
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  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps Mishin is simply trying to pave the way for "home advantage" to continue working and "cutting out bias" to continuing failing when Sochi rolls around. ;)

    Even Mao was shocked in the kiss 'n cry when her marks came up after her free skate. I had to LOL when Tara Lipinski declared on the NBC broadcast of NHK, that Mao's generous marks were due to her "street cred." :lol:


    ITA, Jeschke, re Vol/Tra marks at both of their GPs this season, especially when they were given the win over Pang/Tong at Skate America, albeit there it had nothing to do with home advantage (and more to do with judges favoring V/T for their potential and rep as the "entitlement" Russian pair -- which doesn't mean they aren't talented of course). I like V/T a lot, but I don't care for their programs this season and they are often given generous marks when they make mistakes.
  16. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Ahem. I didn't say anything about Plushenko's performance in other judged elements. Mishin was the one who raised the issue of component marks specifically. And my point is that his major student of late has received IMO unduly high component marks - regardless of the marks he did or didn't get on everything else - so for Mishin to suddenly be calling out the judges for inaccurate marks on components is ironic to say the least.
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  17. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    So, Mao was held up over Suzuki because of home advantage, except that . . . both women are Japanese????
  18. nenne

    nenne New Member

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    Mishin's skaters have never won with a poor skating. Arthur's skating in M. was very good and his 3 th place was completely right. Mishin nows what he's speaking about...But, in my opinion,it isn't only home favorities, it's name favorities too(Kim, Chan and Hanyu now). The actual system is perverse: on the one hand "mathematics" on the other one PCS absolutely biased.Coaches, fans must be opposed to
    it.
  19. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    No, some feel that Mao was held up over the skaters she beat in the LP. Suzuki won the LP, and has nothing to do with it. Mao obviously wasn't held up on the TES, so it seems obvious it was the tweaking of the PCS that held her up.
  20. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

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    Mishin has no room to talk about any skaters component marks
  21. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The theory usually goes that the judges will push whoever the Federation is pushing, which is why it's worrisome if a probable World or Olympic medalist doesn't win his/her/their Nationals (because that shows a lack of "support"), and why being [Country]#2 and especially [Country]#3 means getting less support or no support.
  22. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    If I had to guess...Mao was being held up because she is 2-time WC and because Akiko is 27 and is viewed as approaching her expiration date.
  23. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Home ice advantange? What the hell does he mean by that. From what I know, Akiko is Japanese :rolleyes:. It has nothing to do with home advantage.

    Technically, although Mao only landed three clean triples, Mirai only landed four perfectly clean ones. Both loops were deemed underrotated and two double toes were also. Mirai lost over 6.5 points on all the downgrades and the negative GOE marks that she received.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  24. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    But should Mao have beaten Mirai in the free?
  25. naan

    naan New Member

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    Mao was held up on the TES, too. GOE was quite generous, she was lucky not to get some of her jumps(3F in SP, 3Lo-2Lo-2Lo in LP) downgraded.
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    But obviously, he feels "entitled" to do so. ;)

    Yes, it's not too clear whether Mishin genuinely prizes or even truly understands the importance of the artistic side of figure skating. He seems to stress the jumps more than the artistry. Neither should take a back seat.

    Generally though with Mishin's rep and his greatest pupil's rep (Plush), they never had to worry about the PCS, as many judges tend to give technically consistent jumpers generously high PCS. Gachinski benefited from that tendency in Moscow 2011. The next season, as soon as Gachinski began losing consistency on his jumps, his PCS started taking a nosedive as well. Actually, Gachinski was initially over-rated on PCS, because even though Gachinski has great potential to be a wonderful skater artistically and technically, he seems gawky and unpolished on the ice.
  27. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    He really should learn what the PCS criteria are. Landing a quad or 3/3 is not a stated criterion. Skating clean is not a stated criterion.

    Stop whining and get your skaters to use deeper edges for god's sake.
  28. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Skate well and get good marks, skate poorly and get low marks... I understand fully that it's not really what components marks measure, but I'm sorry, I really like that concept. :shuffle:
  29. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Gachinski didn't win bronze in Moscow with a meltdown! And he got the lowest pcs of any medalist and some people who didn't medal. His medal had nothing to do with pcs and was in spite of his pcs in Moscow worlds. Mao had huge pcs for her meltdown skate at NHk.
  30. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    Not always true. In Vancouver in 2010 there was a large portion of the audience who was quite happy that he didn't win and were a bit :huh: that he placed as high as he did.

    This.
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  31. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Ah yes, but for example when Jeremy Abbott misses his jumps (he is entirely capable of landing everything on a good day), his PCS marks are still generally quite high. Why? Because he is a brilliant all-around skater with good technique and superb artistry, and that is what true figure skating is all about.

    It seems to me that the judges do as they wish and they tend to give high PCS to highly regarded jumpers who still have work to do in refining their presentation skills. It actually took awhile before Jeremy was well-rewarded on PCS, even when he made mistakes on his jumps (so he is probably more of an exception re low technique scores and high PCS).
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  32. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Abbott at least doesn't typically get held up a full place or two with PCS. When he bombs, he drops in the standings.

    Like I said, I understand the point of measuring all the PCS marks differently. I wouldn't have too much problem with it all if the judges consistently at least attempted to judge them correctly (I love seeing variations in the components). But they clearly use the PCS as placeholders which is why I laugh when people say "How can so and so have such a high TR score :eek:" cause we all know that's not what the judges are measuring. Also, some skaters really do show less interpretation, skating skills, and certainly performance/execution on the days they are falling all over the ice.
  33. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Sure Abbott would receive higher PCS if he was more consistent with his jumps, but still his PCS are quite high when he makes mistakes the last couple of seasons anyway (because he has had great, well-regarded programs, and because he moves so beautifully on the ice). You should review Abbott's recent marks at Skate America and TEB -- you'll see that his PCS are very high compared to those ahead of him. He drops when he doesn't skate well due to low TES marks, not low PCS.

    Well if it was "in spite of," the "in spite" had everything to do with where the event was taking place, IMHO!

    Come on, this was Gachinski's Worlds debut as a senior, and he was really rough around the edges, and he hasn't improved much at all since then in regard to flow over the ice, lines and stretch, even though he has a body that begs to be positioned in aesthetically pleasing ways ... yeah ok, but I'm not gonna rephrase that. :lol:

    Gachinski as a first timer at Worlds 2011, was clearly favored, whereas skaters like Ross Miner and Richard Dornbush (also first timers who had less work to do than Gachinski regarding improving presentation skills, were completely low-balled for skating clean as a whistle programs). I don't care about Gachinski's quads, Miner and Dornbush are more talented skaters than Gachinski re polished flow over the ice and overall skating skills (although Dornbush needs to relax his shoulders more).

    At Worlds 2011, did Brezina and Takahashi and Oda tank? Did Amodio land a quad? Why is Amodio so consistently scored high on PCS, with all the mugging and posing he does?
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  34. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    How on earth Dornbush and Ross Miner clearly more talented, is it due to their nationality? not everyone agrees on the statement universally so don't declare as the ultimate truth. in the World 2011, Gachinski was able to perform well on that night and deserved his scores. As for other you mentioned, Well Brezina always tanks, Takahashi started his program with a single toe, fell on his 3s, had trouble with his axel and received and edge call on his Lz. oda had trouble counting 3t and Zayaked on his 2nd jump (that must be some kind of record). Gachinski managed to put together a very good SP and LP in that competition hence the medal.
  35. GoGreen

    GoGreen New Member

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    Yeah, the audience who paid thousands of $$$ on tickets and travel to watch skating live knew nothing about PCS criteria and care nothing about figure skating, only FSU posters sitting in front of computers do, :rofl:

    I wonder why ISU is ignoring our precious posters/experts here!!! Who cares if the stadium is filled or not? Who cares about empty seats? Who cares about what the audience love to watch? Let's keep a handful of our FSU posters here happy, cause they are the BACKBONES of Figure Skating!
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  36. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

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    As if you are the expert of experts.
  37. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

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    As far as I know North American are biased against Plushenko. I know they don't like Russian at all, and what happened to Slutskaya and B/S in 2002.
  38. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    You'll see what you want to see, I suppose.
  39. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    :watch:

    :EVILLE: North Americans!
    Plushenko's coach :revenge: North Americans Watch out in Sochi... :angryfire
  40. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Come on, I don't dislike Gachinski -- he's really cute, and I love those long limbs of his, he just doesn't seem to know how to use them in a completely effective and aesthetically pleasing way. Sure, he's improving somewhat, but he may need a different coach to fully explore his ahhhh ... artistic side. No double entendres intended. ;)

    If I enjoy a skater, I don't care what their nationality is. And in fact, IMHO skaters should be rated according to overall abilities and talent level, not politics based on country of origin.


    ETA:
    I'm still in love with Ilia, Sasha Abt, Urmanov, Stephane, Takahashi, Verner, and I admire Jeff Buttle, adore Fernandez, and deeply respect Brian Joubert (but I have been turned off by Amodio's skating under Morosov). I think Kozuka is extremely talented and Hanyu is too precocious and over-scored on PCS, but he can land quads with such amazing ease, especially in his sps. A fairly scored Chan who is trying hard to improve artistically can be endearing. I'm not enamored of Oda, but I enjoy watching Denis Ten and I wish D10 had Oda's jump consistency. :)


    And obviously I said that Ross and Richard IMO are more talented in their flow over the ice and overall skating skills than Gachinski, which is not surprising since Gachinski's coach, Mishin, seemingly over-emphasizes jumps to the exclusion of other aspects of skating. So, okay, Gachinski has great jumping skills and can land different quads or used to be able to land quads more consistently, but now for some reason he's had problems with jumps lately.

    In addition, I did not say Ross and Richard were "clearly more talented." I did say that Gachinski was "clearly favored" at Worlds 2011, even as a first timer.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012