Plane crash at San Francisco Airport

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by dardar1126, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. Wiery

    Wiery Well-Known Member

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    My husband, who is a private pilot, speculates that the airplane's air throttles malfunctioned, and that it was not pilot error that caused the crash.

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    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  2. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Would there be a record of that on the plane's computer (or whatever it's called, the recorder?)
     
  3. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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  4. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Twitter:

     
  5. Allskate

    Allskate Well-Known Member

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    Oops.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  6. Fridge_Break

    Fridge_Break Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ wrong thread ;)
     
  7. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

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    The CEO of Asiana Airlines encountered total mayhem upon arriving at SFO today:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ych911tGxZw

    Meanwhile, there were at least 4 people at the far end of the runway (near the water, where the tail broke off) who were not tended to by first responders until 25 minutes after the crash. 1 of these people may have been 1 of the 2 girls who passed away.
    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...Personnel-Were-Slow-to-Respond-214815651.html

    I'd have to assume the other girl was the one hit by emergency vehicles.
    http://news.kron4.com/news/parents-learn-which-flight-214-victim-might-have-been-run-over/

    Obviously, while many first responders did admirable work, and while hindsight is 20-20, there still needs to be a review of 1) whether they ought to have canvassed a wider area, thereby reaching the 4 folks at the tail area sooner, all while 2) not running any poor folks over in the process.
     
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I have been saying repeatedly that they need to look at whether something went wrong with the plane (mechanically or electrically or electronically), instead of jumping to conclusions that the crash was due to pilot error. It could even be a combination of the plane malfunction and the pilots not being able to overcome it, even though it may have been possible to. I am sure the NTSB is looking at every possible cause, but in the media there seems to be a rush to blame the pilots, without complete information.
     
  9. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I know they've looked at the flight recorder--was mentioned in an article and had a picture of an engineer working with it.
     
  10. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    It may well turn out to be a combination of malfunction and pilot error. From the LATimes:
    I heard something this morning on the news that indicated that the auto-throttle had been turned on at one set of controls, but not for the other pilot, which might explain why it wasn't working properly. There is still a long way to go before determining exactly what and/or who were the primary factors in causing the crash.
     
  11. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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  12. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    From an article on CNN:

    "The Air Line Pilots Association, a union representing more than 50,000 pilots at 33 American and Canadian airlines, complained that the NTSB is releasing incomplete, out-of-context information that could lead to unfair characterizations of Asiana’s pilots.

    “Without the full body of facts surrounding a catastrophic event, partial or incomplete information can lead to erroneous conclusions and, in turn, skew the perception of individuals’ behavior. This could then lead to misguided assessments of the crew’s intentions and actions,” the union said in a statement.

    Hersman said the NTSB is representing passengers and trying to be transparent."
     
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Article link (refer to the "Under criticism" section at the end), titled "Asiana crew evacuated plane after seeing fire outside": http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/us/asiana-airlines-crash/index.html

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...light-214-updates-from-the-ntsb-investigation
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
  15. missing

    missing Well-Known Member

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    I always fly tourist class, so it's never occurred to me that other passengers have shoulder belts.

    I find it very upsetting to learn that there are two levels of safety on a flight.

    It makes me think of the Titanic. First class passengers allowed onto the life rafts, third class passengers kept from them.
     
  16. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    I can only speak for business class at American as I've had a few upgrades but the belts they have there aren't any different from the tourist class belts. Maybe that's changed or maybe you just have the luxury of other belts in First class.
    Either way, I agree with you that it's disturbing and shouldn't be the case and should be an issue that gets addressed! Just because you've got money shouldn't mean your life is worth more. :eek:
     
  17. maureenfarone

    maureenfarone Well-Known Member

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    I've only made one trip in first class and that was in 2012. The flight was on United and the belts were exactly the same as economy (which is where I usually sit). Perhaps the difference in belts was a quirk of this particular airline.
     
  18. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Given that the plane pirouetted on its nose with the body all the way up in the air, I'm not sure if shoulder belts would have prevented major injuries in coach. It might have transferred all the energy to break people's necks instead of injuring them lower on their spines. :eek:

    The brace position would probably been a really good thing, had the pilots called for it....
     
  19. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    No argument in regards to the brace position. However, that aside, cars have shoulder belts, so they do seem to be the safest option and don't pilots have shoulder belts, too? And why would a shoulder belt have a different effect in economy than it has in first class? I also doubt they would use belts in first class that may do more harm than good.
    Fact is, they are using two different belts, so they do consider that the people paying more money need better safety and I think that's the problem, the principle of it. As missing mentioned, it's kind of like on the Titanic, if you've got money, your life is worth saving, if not, we're sorry and that's just wrong.
     
  20. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I would guess that shoulder belts would be difficult if not impossible to install with the types of seats used in economy, and installing different seats would necessitate reduced capacity in economy, resulting in higher ticket prices. I haven't flown first or business in a long time and have no idea if this is unique to Asiana, perhaps only used for longer routes or in certain airplanes, etc.

    But this is not the equivalent of the Titanic, it's not as if economy passengers are blocked from evacuating until first class passengers do, or not given, say, access to life jackets.

    As for brace position, I don't think they knew what would happen until it was too late to prepare the passengers.
     
  21. missing

    missing Well-Known Member

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    There were a couple of things passengers said almost immediately that struck me (and didn't get a lot of follow-up by their interviewers).

    One was that the first responders took a long time to get to people lying on the ground. This would seem to be true.

    The second was (and I'm paraphrasing) that on the plane, people's heads seem to fly upwards.

    I don't know physics and I certainly don't know whether the front of the plane went through a different experience than the middle (where the fire seems to have been). But if (and this is a very big if) business/first class passengers endured the same crash experience as the tourist class, and (continuing the ifs) if the spinal injuries were limited to people in tourist class, then the difference between shoulder harness/seat belt, and merely seat belt is significant.

    I assume those questions are under examination by people who understand a lot more than I do.
     
  22. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    No one said it was the equivalent of the Titanic, at least, I didn't think anyone did. But the general principle is the same. Those with money were obviously better protected and in certain accidents that may result in them having a better chance of survival (as they maybe may be less injured and able to evacuate by themselves while others may remain stuck in their seats because they would need assistance.)
     
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    More likely it had to do with their location on the plane. There have been cases where the only survivors were nearer the back of the plane (e.g. Japan Airlines 123) or where the majority of those who survived were seated near the back (e.g. Avianca 52) or in the middle (United 232). It really depends on the type of impact and the damage.
     
  24. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Long read:

    http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2021369971_apussanfranciscoairlinercrash.html

    Originally published July 11, 2013 at 5:45 AM | Page modified July 11, 2013 at 7:42 AM

    Asiana passengers called 911 begging for help
    Passengers who called 911 minutes after a Boeing 777 crashed at San Francisco International Airport said not enough help had arrived and they were doing their best to keep the critically injured alive, according to 911 calls that portray a scene of desperation.

    By MARTHA MENDOZA
    Associated Press

    Excerpt:

     
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I had flown business class (international) and first class (domestic) many times but that was many years ago. The seat belts were similar those days regardless which class you flew. I was surprised when I saw in the interview of Mr.Rah on CNN that he had a shoulder belt in addition to the usual seat belt and it kept his head from hitting the roof.

    I feel it's unfair to offer different kinds of safety protection to passengers in different classes. Either provide shoulder belts to all or take them away from the upper classes. I realize that it would be difficult to install shoulder belts in economy, and the upper classes will create an uproar if their extra protection is taken away. May be this will be the next challenge for airlines to make all seats safer than they are right now. Obviously it means they will have to spend more money and the ticket prices will go up dramatically.
     
  26. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    :confused: What about installing shoulder belts in economy is so difficult? Not the cost but the logistics and engineering.
     
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Anytime you have to come up with engineering solutions, then implement them on such a massive scale, there is going to be a substantial cost involved. However, there could be a solution to it, if enough resources are put into it. The initial cost will be high but with economy of scales in manufacturing, the increase in air fares may not be that high.
     
  28. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    Here's an article with discussion of the issues around upgrading airplane seat belts.
    Larger and heavier seats mean more fuel required per flight. Basically, economics seems likely to be the primary reason.
     
  29. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Actually, in most of the crashes that have occurred in modern times, it's actually safer to sit in the back, because the plane usually hits something nose-first. Tail strikes are a lot rarer.

    There have been times where airbags and/or seat belts have injured or killed someone instead of protecting them, but it's rare.
     
  30. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    That's what I thought - it all comes down to cost.