Plane crash at San Francisco Airport

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by dardar1126, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    30,659
    43 hours doesn't sound like a lot and the 777 sounds like a complex plane to fly. There was an attempt to abort the landing so they knew something was wrong before they touched down.

    Has anyone ever been in aborted landings? I have in SFO, the plane coming almost touched down and then took off at the last second to make a few circles over the Bay Area and attempt again. I was sweating bullets and there was nary a peep from captain or crew to explain the situation.
     
  2. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,547
    I haven't asked what she saw or asked her Mom yet. I know they didn't take off and returned to the gate after a while. That was her plane that was in the video. I heard that those pilots had a front row seat to the whole thing. The NTSB will be talking to them. They would have heard something and saw something.
    None of the planes are alike. Weight, size, cockpits are all different and require different skills. I have another friend at Delta (he's a pilot and flies overseas) and we had a talk about weather he would be able to fly another plane if something happened to the pilot. He said he would be able to, but would need a lot of help from the ground. If your used to flying a 747, that is a very heavy plane and the weight is a lot different then the 737. So speed is different, rudders and flaps are all, are set differently. The speed and decent are different. That's why the pilots only fly one type of plane and are certified on one plane.
    I've had some crazy experiences on planes before. I used to fly a lot. Once we had an aborted landing, but it wasn't that close to the ground. That was freaky, then there was the time I was flying in from ORD to DTW and we dropped a few thousand feet quickly due to being to close to another plane. Then flying into Midway in Chicago is always fun, since they drop so fast if your coming from the east. One time we had the air mask drop.
    I'm just praying the ones that are in critical come though. They are saying the injuries have to do with burns, brain injuries and spinal.
     
  3. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,854
    I have flown on all kinds of planes, from tiny two seaters (including pilot) to big international flights with 600+ passengers, but as a passenger I have not experienced dangerous situations- touch wood. Turbulence on international flights is very common and I don't consider that a dangerous situation (although in a way it is). If I ever experience one, I may become afraid of flying.

    The survivor who was interviewed on CNN (Eugene Rah?) said that when he saw the water, he knew the plane was not going to be able to land- he had flown that route 170+ times. He was in business class and he said that he had a shoulder strap (I don't recall one when I flew business class but it was many years ago; they must have added that to business class) which saved his head from hitting the ceiling.

    IMO it's too early to call it a pilot error since all the facts have not come in. What if the plane had a problem and it could not reach the needed speed or just lost the speed suddenly? I am not familiar with how aeroplanes work, and I would rather wait for the full report by the NTSB. I am still wondering if the pilots have been interviewed by the investigators (unless they are in critical condition in the hospital)? I do recall hearing Saturday night that since this was an international flight, they are being more sensitive and not jumping into the investigation (I am paraphrasing). May be that's what is happening.
     
  4. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    13,479
    Returned to SFO earlier tonight on 28R and it was certainly eerie seeing the downed plane illuminated off to the side of the adjacent parallel runway (28L), looking like a wrinkled, used tube of toothpaste (and not standing tall and proud, high above the ground, like it would if it still had its landing gear).
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Messages:
    11,162
    Many pilots don't get any hours on a plane type before they're deemed captain of one. They're always partnered with a first officer who has experience, as was the case here. (The captain doesn't always get to fly either.)

    When you add a new plane to the fleet, nobody has any hours on it. Although I presume that it would be added to training simulators so they would get an idea of what it would be like sitting in the cockpit without experimenting on an actual plane.

    The plane gave the "imminent stall" warning 4 seconds before impact. That's not enough time to really do anything at that point. It's sounding more and more like they left something on auto that they shouldn't have, and didn't notice until it was too late.
     
  6. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,266
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/asiana-says-pilot-had-little-experience-777s

    ASIANA ATTENDANT DESCRIBES DRAMATIC EVACUATION
    By JACK CHANG and YOUKYUNG LEE
    — Jul. 8 8:38 AM EDT

    Excerpt:

    EDIT:

    Incredible photo of a plane landing at SFO last night with Asiana 214 in the background (via @nancygay): https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOqHvnyCMAAF07e.jpg

    Candlelight vigil at the school attended by two Chinese girls who died in Asiana 214 crash
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOp8sVkCIAM4KqF.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  7. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    25,116
    So many articles are crediting the flight attendants for doing everything possible to help people exit, including carrying some of them on their backs to the exits. I'm sure their calm and professionalism helped minimize the injuries and deaths from the accident.
     
  8. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,266
    ^^THIS!^^ :saint:

    One passenger said that even though the flight attendant he saw was obviously upset and had tears streaming down her face, she remained very professional, efficient and relatively calm in getting her passengers to safety.
     
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,854
    This was almost a miraculous feat to get 300 passengers off the plane in such a short time (1.5 minutes? or even less?) when you consider how long it takes to deplane under normal circumstances. The flight attendants deserve some kind of an award for this heroic deed.

    ETA: Just read this story on msnbc.com, about flight attendant Ms.Lee who helped many passengers to get off. She was the last to deplane.

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-sensed-plane-was-in-trouble-felt-a-bang?lite
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  10. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,266
    Long read:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/officials-probe-why-crashed-sf-jet-flew-too-slow

    SLOW LANDING SPEED OF SAN FRANCISCO JET PROBED
    By JASON DEAREN and JOAN LOWY
    — Jul. 8 9:14 AM EDT

    Excerpt:

     
  11. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    10,774
    The thought has crossed my mind that its too slow approach speed, which may have been a key factor in the plane not reaching the runway and crashing, may also have been a factor in minimizing the loss of life. Of course, if the landing approach had been correct and the touch down normal, no one would have died or been injured, but once the plane's tail clipped the retaining wall, the slower speed may have kept the plane from cartwheeling completely over or disintegrating more on impact.

    As others have already posted, I am amazed (and grateful) that the plane was evacuated so quickly -- major credit to the flight attendants for their quick (and heroic) action in getting everyone out before the fire could cause even more casualties.
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,266
    http://www.9news.com/news/article/344116/188/Asiana-attendant-describes-dramatic-evacuation

    Asiana attendant describes dramatic evacuation
    10:42 AM, Jul 8, 2013

    Excerpt:

    :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  13. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2002
    Messages:
    18,917
    I'm trying to figure out how emergency evacuation slides inflated inside the plane.
     
  14. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Messages:
    11,162
    The door got damaged so that the slide was angled inside instead of outside?

    Goodness, that doesn't sound like a clean evacuation at all! So glad the flight attendants's training (and some creative quick thinking!) kicked in, and passengers took care of themselves as well by going out the back where there was now a giant hole. Training is SO important for incidents like this.
     
  15. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,746
    Well, the slide must be stored inside the doors, so maybe the material of the door got damaged through impact and that's when the door inflated? You could, in theory, inflate an airbag in a car without an accident, so I'd think the doors maybe have a similar mechanism?
     
  16. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,266
    POLITICO Breaking News

    The Asiana Airlines jet was traveling 39 miles per hour below the target speed of 158 mph just a few seconds before it crashed at San Francisco International Airport, NTSB Chairwoman Debbie Hersman told reporters Monday.

    Hersman said the plane was traveling at 103 knots - or 118 mph - just three seconds before impact. It had sped up slightly to 106 knots at the time of impact, based on an initial review of flight data.
     
  17. skatemommy

    skatemommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,215
    The 2 doa were 16 year old girls in their seats and ejected from the back of the airplane. This crew had been in the air 12 hours from Korea. The captain had 43 hours in the triple 7. My daughter needs 50 hours of dual instruction to get her learner's drivers permit. My husband is a pilot and flew into SFO yesterday. The debris field is still there, tail and all. Flying for these newer pilots is like playing a video game. ILS was disabled on this runway for maintenance. Visual landing conditions, except this pilot had never been to SFO except probably on a simulator. No one comes anymore from military or civilian backgrounds and can actually make an aircraft perform. For whomever said upthread it is the co-pilots duty to make sure the captain is safe YOU ARE WRONG. It happens every day but it is not in their job description. This is totally pilot error and error on the part of this airline's training protocols.
     
  18. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,547
    Also they are reporting that the pilot was a training pilot and there was a trainer capt in the cockpit along with another capt and co pilot. How can that many pilots get it wrong?
     
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,854
    It's not been determined yet that it was pilot error. Why was the speed lower than normal? Why did the plane stall? We don't know that. Let all the facts come out before you start assigning blame.

    Also you cannot compare your daughter's learners license with a licensed commercial pilot on a major airline.
     
  20. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    5,034
    The pilot who was flying at the time of the crash landing had limited experience flying a 777, not limited experience as a pilot. How is he expected to gain experience flying a 777 if not by actually flying a 777? While he had not yet flown a 777 to SFO, he had flown that route as a 747 pilot and also had colleagues more familiar with the 777 with him (source 1, source 2). He was not unfamiliar with the airport and he did not treat the landing like a video game. His experience flying is a lot more extensive than your daughter's driving.

    In addition, the flight crew consisted of at least three more pilots, as is usually the case in long haul flights. And captains and first officers do, indeed, take turns both flying and handling other flight-related responsibilities (e.g. instrumentation, communications, checklists, etc.). Also, first officers may be more experienced flying a specific airliner than captains.

    Wherever you're getting your information, I would suggest finding another source.

    Let's wait for the NTSB to figure out what went wrong. It may be that the crew did not know in time that something was wrong, whether through pilot error or because of technical issues, or a combination thereof. The NTSB investigators are very good at what they do and I am sure that they will eventually get to the bottom of this - but it may take time. It's probably best not to jump to conclusions as to the cause.

    Everyone who posted about the great job the cabin crew did is absolutely right, it must have been a very difficult situation to handle so efficiently and they are to be commended.
     
  21. skatemommy

    skatemommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,215
    Yes I can. My husband flies for one of the largest commercial airlines in the world. Seniority is the only thing that allows for upgrades. You can be the worst damn pilot out there but if you have seniority you can move up to captain. Above a better capable FO because you got hired before him or her. So yes the FO can save your butt, if you have two low time in the cockpit look out for your life. I live this every day. I hear about it every day. It scares me everyday. Seriously, 43 hours in a triple seven? Probably the most complex aircraft in the world's fleet today. Most people have more time playing Candy Crush.
     
  22. skatemommy

    skatemommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,215
    um that would be called flying domestic until you are proficient in the aircraft to handle international overseas 12 hour flights.
     
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    5,034
    The NYT story I linked to explains the training program Asiana uses for pilots moving to a new aircraft, as well as detailing some of the training the specific pilot underwent. Perhaps you should read it, or another credible source, before opining about how Asiana conducts pilot training and the flight crew's experience. Because regardless of what your husband does or doesn't do, your previous post included all sorts of incorrect information.

    I am sure there is much call for 777 domestic flights in a country the size of South Korea. :rolleyes:

    Bottom line: you are not an NTSB investigator and you don't know what went wrong. None of us do at this point.
     
    Sylvia and (deleted member) like this.
  24. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Messages:
    11,162
    With that many eyes looking out the window, it's indeed very suspect.

    Sullenberger said himself, not to make too much light of the flying pilot's inexperience. It's normal. It might scare you, but a more experienced pilot (even if it's a first officer training a captain) is supposed to watch out for the trainee. You can't get experience if you don't try it.

    One pilot's inexperience shoudn't have been the most important factor. It should have been the fact that 3 other pilots didn't manage to see the issue or correct the flying pilot.
     
  25. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    13,479
    During landing, the pilot with the 43 flying hours in 777s was being supervised by a co-pilot with many, many hours in 777s, so this co-pilot's thinking and actions at the controls need to be reviewed as well.
     
  26. skatemommy

    skatemommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,215
    Please correct away. By domestic I mean not flying over the pond, duh. Usually hubby gets these NTSB reports correct months before they come out. Been involved with aviation for 30 years, but I defer to your greater knowledge and insight.
     
  27. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,266
  28. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    10,774
    I guess your having been "involved with aviation for 30 years" precludes you from admitting you made at least one major error with the facts wrt to this pilot's experience.
    I certainly do not have "greater knowledge and insight" but at least I'm not making things up.
     
    uyeahu and (deleted member) like this.
  29. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,266
    Twitter:

    Senior pilot on crashed Asiana jet was on first training flight

    SEOUL | Mon Jul 8, 2013 10:10am EDT

    (Reuters) - The senior pilot who oversaw the landing by a more junior colleague of the Asiana passenger jet that crashed in San Francisco on Saturday was on his first flight as a trainer, the South Korean airline said on Monday.

    Asiana Airlines Inc. said that the senior pilot on the flight, Lee Jung-min, had received his training certificate in June.

    Lee Kang-kuk was the second most junior pilot of four on board the Asiana Airlines aircraft. He had just 43 hours' experience flying the long-range jet and, under supervision, was making his first landing on a Boeing 777 at San Francisco.

    Two teenage Chinese girls on their way to summer camp in the United States were killed and more than 180 injured in the crash, the first fatal accident involving the Boeing 777 since it entered service in 1995.

    "Only veterans are qualified to become flight instructors. They need to go through training to get certificates," an Asiana official said, declining to be named due to the sensitivity of the issue.

    Lee Jung-min had had clocked up 3,220 flying hours on a Boeing 777, according to the company and South Korean transport officials.

    (Reporting by Hyunjoo Jin; Writing by David Chance; Editing by Mark Heinrich)
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  30. skatemommy

    skatemommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,215
    A captain is not supervised by a FO. A training captain can be on board to supervise. It is NOT the first officer's job to supervise a pilot. They are not trained, paid or required to do so. That being said it happens a lot but you won't hear about it.