Plane crash at San Francisco Airport

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by dardar1126, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Nobody flies 777s without having a lot of training and experience, and they work on all sorts of scenarios in the simulator in addition to logging a lot of flight hours. Whoever the pilots were yesterday, you can be certain they were experienced and qualified; of course they would know what to do when the plane hit the ground. As for the planes that landed before, were they also 777s flying similar routes? Perhaps there were technical issues and these in turn were not handled correctly by the pilots (see the example I gave above - American 587). It's really too soon to say what caused the accident, but I am sure the NTSB and everyone else involved in the investigation will do a thorough job.

    This is why I link to Ask The Pilot, who unlike me can explain what an auto landing involves based on actual experience ;) Again, see above.
     
  2. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Here it is:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...f-plane-crash-on-cam.courtesy-fred-hayes.html

    In the dust and smoke you can see why some thought the plane flipped on its back. After the initial skid, you can see the plane tilt onto one wing and the body of the plane rise at maybe a 10 degree angle (more/less?) before falling HARD back down to the ground.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  3. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Is that pilot trained to fly the 777? I heard it's a very different plane. As in most cases probably a combination of factors led to the crash.

    In any case, I am sure the NTSB will get to the bottom of this. The data recorders were found without much effort, and there will be lots of information to get through, so eventually they will figure out what led to the crash. In any plane crash, it is always a 'glass half full' situation when there are lots of survivors, even though that won't be any comfort to the families who lost their loved ones.
     
  4. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    I'd say nobody flies overseas without a lot of experience!

    That was exactly what it was about, actually, that the CNN reporter asked if they can simulate every possible accident to which the expert replied that no, not the actual accident but all the other "stuff" and that those pilots knew exactly how to handle the plane once it crashed onto the tarmac.

    Which makes it even more amazing that no wing broke off and ripped the plane apart!

    On a different note, I've been wondering how parents cope with the fact that out of 307 passengers their children are the only two who didn't make it. While it's amazing there are only two fatalities, it seems so so cruel. Even I wonder if 305 made it why not all of them?
     
  5. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    That must be even tougher to handle than if everyone (or almost everyone) had been killed in the crash. I believe eventually they will come to accept it; faith and time are the only healers. A belief in fate/destiny can help eventually but not right after a tragedy like this. I can't imagine what those parents must be going through.
     
  6. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Of course, the flight crew includes more than one pilot, and presumably between them they have a fair bit of experience.

    There have been some crazy scenarios in which pilots still managed to land the plane and minimize loss of life. Pilots at major airlines are very well-trained, as well they should be.

    From watching Air Crash Investigation, I've learned that you can definitely survive gliding 120 kilometers after running out of fuel over the ocean, landing on the open sea after a hijacking (don't inflate the life jacket until you clear the plane!), a complete loss of hydraulic control systems, and so on. OTOH, contrary to what Hollywood would have us believe, losing the tail would be a problem.

    It's kind of the flip of past accidents in which only a few survived, like the Japan Air Lines crash in the 1980s that killed 520 people with four people somehow surviving and a Northwest crash that had one survivor. It seems so arbitrary and cruel. And yet we should be happy that this time it was the reverse, with most everyone on the plane making it out safely.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  7. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Excerpt:

    EDIT: Finished reading the entire article; it is long, thorough and detailed...an excellent overview of the accident and the aftermath.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  8. susan6

    susan6 Well-Known Member

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    They were calling for a go-around 1.5 seconds before impact? That's insane. From the angle they were coming in, the only thing they should have been saying at that point in time was "Jesus take the wheel." Observers on the ground were noticing the "wrong" angle of approach way before then. I'm wondering if there was some sort of instrument malfunction that was telling the pilots that they had more height than they did (like in Die Hard 2). Granted, the view out of the cockpit window should have pointed out the problem, but some pilots may prefer to fly by instrument readings.

    Whatever the case, major props to the materials scientists and engineers who designed and put together that fuselage. The fact that it held together saved a lot of lives.
     
  9. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    They said on ABC that the plane was probably traveling at about 150 mph when it hit the ground! :eek: I was once in a low-impact/low-speed collision and remember how jolted I was and how it felt to be slung into the seat belt so hard...I can't even imagine on that plane. And, of course, the overhead bins opened and luggage fell on to the passengers and into the exit aisles.

    Pic: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOmrTBwCcAARecz.jpg

    It is a tribute to that flight crew that they got everyone off that plane! :saint:
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  10. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    smurfy and (deleted member) like this.
  11. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    Then you remember more than I did! But, yeah, it gives that whole crash an entirely new dimension and makes you aware of how resistent the materials are that are used to build a plane!
    What I've heard on CNN is that the crew stayed on board until everyone was off the plane! I know it's their job but still, there's always a big gap between theory and real life so they certainly deserve praise! :respec:

    I've heard that pilots actually don't see that much out of their windows, at least the front windows, and I'm not sure they would have had time to check out the side windows.

    I thought so too! But that guy's "Lord have mercy" seemed so fitting in so many ways!
     
  12. smurfy

    smurfy Well-Known Member

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    Just curious - with how so much is under surveillance nowadays is so many places - do they film landings and takeoffs at airports? Or surveillance of all the grounds at an airpot for security purposes. Seems like airports should be filming all takeoffs and landings. Seems like something, in some cases, would help decipher events.
     
  13. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

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    The first photos were so horrifying...this didn't happen far from me. :( I'm thankful there weren't more killed.

    Rest in Peace.
     
  14. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    They have to investigate everything no matter how dumb. Otherwise, if they just assume what happened, it's not much of an investigation. ;)

    There were 4 on this plane and they took turns flying and resting on a rotation schedule.

    Yes, they mentioned that happened on the news. I forgot about that. I'm sure that was kind of scary too. And crazy.

    Another thing the rescue people talk about was driving up to the crash site only knowing it had been a "hard landing" but not much else and seeing the plane burning, but most of the passengers off the plane already and more pouring off in a fairly orderly fashion. So the flight crew did a really good job with the evacuation, it looks like.

    Oh and also they talked about how they do these regular drills to practice for situations like this and they had just done one. I don't remember exactly when but about a month ago? It was recent though. The rescue people said it was recent and all very fresh in their minds and how all the area hospitals and rescue units all participate.

    For those who don't know the area, SFO isn't actually IN San Francisco. The land belongs to the city but you have to actually exit SF and go through a few towns south of SF to get to it. So it makes sense that rescue efforts would involve South SF, San Mateo and San Bruno and Burlingame as those are actually all closer to the airport than SF is.

    Yeah, watching the evening news, there was a few of those too. I kind of can't blame them though. If you slip into "I"m involved in an exciting adventure" mode, it makes it all less traumatic.

    A few other things from the broadcast:

    They did some obligatory "travelers are being inconvenienced" stories. A couple of travelers are being told they can't leave SF until July 10th! Not sure what flights they are on and where they are trying to go.

    They sent some planes over to Oakland, which is expected. But they sent some International planes over there. Now, Oakland is an international airport. But apparently not on Saturday! So they had to send some employees from SFO to Oakland over there to process the International flights! That cracked me up a bit.

    They also sent planes to San Jose airport of course but the station I was watching didn't interview anyone there. I assume they do international flights on Saturdays and it all went smoothly there.

    For the most part, people were good sports about the delays. They were probably thinking "At least my plane didn't crash!" The ones having trouble getting out of SF were the most annoyed. Some of them were thinking about traveling back to their start point and going to their destinations from there as the flights actually worked out better! The rest were flying stand-by and hoping for the best.

    A few called and were told their flight had been canceled and there were no flights but came to the airport anyway. Honestly, I didn't feel all that sorry for them when they whine about how long they'd been there and how long they expected to be there. Dude, should have stayed home!
     
  15. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    It all happened so fast! And I remember being unnaturally calm afterwards. I got out of the car, gathered my purse and tote bag...realized my glasses had been knocked off and had ended up on the floor of the backseat. The van that hit me shoved me into an SUV, and that driver and I chatted until the ambulance arrived. Then it was all neck brace, back board and transport to x-rays, etc. I'm claustrophobic, so one of the worst parts was being strapped down on that back board for what seemed like forever!

    In this plane crash they said that the sudden and violent impact probably snapped the spines of the two paralyzed patients. :(

    And exiting a plane is no picnic under the best of conditions...can only imagine trying to get out after a violent crash, luggage strewn everywhere, people crying, screaming, injured and bleeding! :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  16. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Not to mention the plane catching fire.
     
  17. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    To me, mere mortal person, it just doesn't seem to make sense to investigate into that as a cause for an accident when nothing happened to any of the other planes landing before them, that's all.
    On the other hand, similar to what you said, one could say that the investigation is supposed to determine just that - why it would have affected that one plane while others weren't affected.
     
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  19. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear.... :(
     
  20. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

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    A friend of mines daughter was in the plane that was on the runway getting ready to take off when that happened, right next to them. She is 17 and is really freaked out.
     
  21. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    It included a pilot and a co-pilot and a first officer, at least, the US airlines do. They had cut the first officer before 9/11 then re-introduced him, especially on oversea flights but I'm not sure if world wide or just the US airlines.
    Anyway, a co-pilot can be a lot less experienced than the pilot, the pilot usually has four stripes, the co-pilot often has less and can still be in a learning process wanting to earn those additional stripes. A landing done by a co-pilot can be rougher than that of a pilot depending on the co-pilot's experience.
    The first officer, as far as I know, is responsible for navigation, whatever that means.

    Understandably so! :eek:
     
  22. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

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    For training to fly a plane alone you must have 100s of hours flying with someone. To fly a larger plane you have to have 1000s of hours and to be a commercial pilot you have to have 10,000s of hours flying. That's why most pilots are from the military. No one has that kind of money for the hours of training. Most pilots are certified in one type of plane or another. Like the 707, 737, 777, 747 ect. Each cockpit and plane are so different from each other, it's not like walking into the car dealer and being able to drive any car in there.
    You have to qualify in that plane.
    This looks like pilot error right now. I have a good friend who flew in 3 wars as a pilot/training officer. He flew refueling tankers. He didn't get hired when he applied at United.
    Yes, Brittney is pretty shook up. Her Mother even more. Her Mom has been posting prayers since last night and Brit is being very quiet. She is leaving today with her class on the trip.
     
  23. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Another thing - I read today that the designers and engineers made it such that it was possible for a fully-loaded B777 to evacuate everyone inside in under 90 seconds.....even when half of the exits were unusable and it's pitch black inside.

    And SFO shut down all the other flights that afternoon because all of their emergency crews were working on Asiana 214 and would not be available if another emergency occurred. Obviously very unlikely, but the fact they took no chances is an awesome thing. So many contingency plans can be beautiful when it seems nothing else works in this day and age.

    It was suggested on the Airliners.net forums, but the runways are miles long and maintaining HD cameras for the allowable distance would be hundreds of thousands of dollars. Airports could go decades without seeing a crash like this, so it's unclear whether the effort would be worth it.

    Poor thing! :(
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  24. genevieve

    genevieve drinky typo pbp, closet hugger Staff Member

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    Ruling out any liability on the part of the airport will lessen the chance they will be included in the inevitable lawsuits. it's not enough to just say "nobody else crashed that day so it couldn't be our fault".
     
  25. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    The NTSB will certainly consider it, but the fact that any pilot flying commercial should have been able to make that landing will likely free SFO from liability.

    It's not unusual for airports to have their Instrument Landing Systems (ILS) be taken off for maintenance. And again, not all airports have them to begin with. The precision approach path indicator (PAPI) systems at that runway (another landing system using indicator lights but no instruments) were functional at the time of the crash, but Asiana 214 ran them over when it crashed and it is no longer functional. :p
     
  26. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    In the amateur video shown on CNN, the plane that was ready to take off appeared so close to the plane that was landing (and crashed) that it almost looked like a simultaneous event (the take off and a crash). I wonder if the passengers in the take off plane actually saw what happened to the other plane or did they just hear about it? If they saw it, that could be terrifying to anyone. I am glad that the crash did not impact the plane was taking off in any way (physically).
     
  28. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.alternet.org/passengers-recount-frighting-moments-fatal-san-franscisco-jet-crash

    EDIT:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/08/us-asiana-korea-idUSBRE96701620130708

    Asiana says pilot of crashed plane was in training

    SEOUL | Sun Jul 7, 2013 9:01pm EDT

    (Reuters) - Asiana Airlines Inc said the pilot in charge of landing the Boeing 777 that crash-landed at San Francisco's airport on Saturday was training for the long-range plane and that it was his first flight to the airport with the jet.

    "It was Lee Kang-kook's maiden flight to the airport with the jet... He was in training. Even a veteran gets training (for a new jet)," a spokeswoman for Asiana Airlines said on Monday.

    The plane was travelling "significantly below" its intended speed and its crew tried to abort the landing just seconds before it hit the seawall in front of the runway, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board said on Sunday.

    "He has a lot of experience and previously flown to San Francisco on different planes including the B747... and he was assisted by another pilot who has more experience with the 777," the spokeswoman said.

    Lee, who started his career at Asiana as an intern in 1994, has 9,793 hours of flying experience, but only 43 hours with the Boeing 777 jet.

    Co-pilot Lee Jeong-min, who has 3,220 hours of flying experience with the Boeing 777 and a total of 12,387 hours of flying experience, was helping Lee Kang-kook in the landing, the spokeswoman said.

    National Transportation Safety Board Chairwoman Deborah Hersman said Sunday that it was too early to say whether pilot error or mechanical failure were to blame.

    But she said there was no evidence of problems with the flight or the landing until 7 seconds before impact, when the crew tried to increase the plane's speed and the plane responded normally. The control tower was not alerted to any plane issues.

    Witnesses said the plane on Saturday appeared to be too low as it approached the runway, hit the ground before the runway started and the impact sheared off part of the tail of the plane and possibly landing gear as well.

    Asiana's chief executive said on Saturday that he did not believe the fatal crash was caused by mechanical failure, although the carrier refused to be drawn on whether the fault laid with pilot error. (Reporting by Hyunjoo Jin; Editing by Ryan Woo)
     
  29. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    This whole thing is extremely tragic and scary.
     
  30. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ntsb-findings-sf-plane-crash-glance

    NTSB FINDINGS ON SF PLANE CRASH AT A GLANCE
    By The Associated Press
    — Jul. 7 10:53 PM EDT

    SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Asiana Flight 214 makes its final approach after a 10-hour flight that started in Shanghai and stopped in Seoul. A preliminary review of the crash by federal investigators turns up the following:

    — APPROACH PROCEEDS NORMALLY ... the plane receives clearance from air traffic control to land without its instrument landing system. Visibility is about 10 miles with winds out of the southwest at 7 knots. There are no distress calls or requests for support in the air traffic control tapes that captured the discussion between a controller and the Asiana crew.

    — SEVEN SECONDS OUT ... the crew asks to increase its air speed. National Traffic Safety Board chairwoman Deborah Hersman says the plane came in well below the approach speed of 137 knots that crew members had discussed.

    — FOUR SECONDS OUT ... the stick shaker, a yolk the pilots hold, begins shaking, indicating the plane could stall.

    — 1.5 SECONDS OUT ... the crew calls to abort the landing and go around for another try.

    — CRASH ... the plane hits a seawall. The controller declares an emergency. The pilots talk to air traffic control and emergency vehicles are deployed.