Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Iceman, Jan 10, 2012.
Hope the new methods boost her confidence.
Great to hear it is working out so positively for Cynthia. All the best for a great Nationals and Worlds.
Good luck to Cynthia! But...
Doesn't Canada only have one Worlds spot for ladies this year? In which case she has to win to "move beyond" it?
If she skates well the spot is hers. The problem is she so rarely puts in two good performances back to back...
OTOH, who else among the Canadian ladies puts two good performances back to back? They are all very inconsistent.
well good luck to her
excited how she will perform by nationals
Shades of josee in 96. If sc wants to shoot itselfin it's own foot....
I don't know what this means.
ETA: Never mind, I see Josee finished second to Jennifer Robinson, who then finished 21st at Worlds. Was SC just supposed to ignore the Nationals results and send whoever they wanted? Besides, Cynthia is no Josee results-wise; her Worlds results are 20th, 15th, 5th and 13th. Cynthia probably will win Canadians, she usually rises to that occasion, but if for some reason she doesn't, I don't know that she should automatically be sent anyway.
Maybe that Chouinard should have won Canadian Nats that year? Chouinard won Trophee Lalique and took bronze at Skate Canada; she won the silver at Canadian Nats, bronze at the GP final, but didn't go to Worlds.
Jennifer Robinson placed 10th and 7th at her GP events, won Canadian Nats, and placed 21st at Worlds.
I'm guessing the implication is that Chouinard would have finished considerably higher than Robinson at Worlds that year. She would have had rep points from medaling at all three GP events.
Thanks -- to clarify, Chouinard should have gone to Worlds because she skated better at Canadian Nationals, or because she had the better overall season?
Off to YouTube to see if I can find that out.
ETA: Chouinard bombed in the LP at the '96 Canadian Nats. She landed one clean triple. She fell on the lutz, stepped out of the loop, and doubled everything else. No combo jumps at all.
I couldn't find any videos of Robinson, though.
Yes. And the spotlight will be on Phaneuf because she's the most accomplished of the bunch and most likely to win. But I find it sad when she's packaged and promoted like a superstar and then has a melt-down. .
It would be so nice is someone really rose to the occasion, like Rochette did the year she beat Robinson. .but amongst Canadian ladies something like that happens about once every 20 years.
Brian Orser is certainly capable of making wonderful progress for skaters. Yuna was one for sure and Javier this season, too. Too sad Adam and Christina haven't made that happening for themselves I hope Cynthia could bring more than one tickets for Canadian ladies at Worlds, assuming of course that she's going to take Canadian title next week.
I can certainly see Amelie Lacoste getting sent instead of Cynthia if Amelie indeed wins Nationals this year. Amelie had a stronger showing in the Grand Prix series this year.
Amelie also has a problem with nerves in competition, but not nearly as bad as Cynthia. I think Amelie has a better chance at making top 10, unless Brian has had the opportunity to turn Cynthia's nerviousness around. I really don't think it's possible in such a short time....sorry to be so negative but that's how I feel. I sincerly hope I'm wrong though. I'd love to see Cynthia skate to her potential at a major comp as she sure can sell a program.
Interesting point in the article that under her previous coach she'd been very disciplined and methodical, and with Brian she plans to "run on natural feeling and instinct." Knowing nothing about her I would have guessed that the exact opposite was true! Best wishes to her.
My impression is that choreographer David Wilson encourages skaters to "run on natural feeling and instinct" - he's been working with Phaneuf since she was a young teenager, IIRC.
I'm not expecting much at Canadians, too much expectation in too short a time. I'll be more curious to see her next season on the GP.
Phaneuf is the type of skater who needs to have her opinions and esp her feelings about things rspected, thus being encouraged to use her natural instincts and getting in touch with her feelings by the new coaching team of B. Orser, T. Wilson & D. Wilson should work very well for her.
Yes, strategic planning and organizing, being disciplined is necessary too, but with Cynthia, her feelings, opinions and being respected for what she believes and feels is right for her to do, simply MUST carry the day. She must be allowed to be an adult and free to make her own decisions.
Relationships are very important and have great impact on someone who is sensitive and responsive and who sometimes needs to feel in charge of herself, like Phaneuf, so feeling optimistic and free to be herself. feel free to understand her own reactions and desires and actually being encouraged and trained by people she respects in return, to do just that, should have a very positive effect on her skating. At least I hope so. Sometimes just being treated as an adult works wonders and that can be very difficult to do when one has had the same coach since one was a child -the relational dynamic is just very tough to change, esp when over time, friendships have evolved as well.
A change in environment can be as good as a rest, so hopefully Phaneuf will quickly get back into the form that had her ranked 5th in the world and she can conquer her 3 lutz nemesis, let go of the people and things that were holding her back in life and get her head back in the game, if skating is truly what she wants as so much talent, charisma should not be wasted or go unrewarded. I still think Phaneuf can take her skating to next level, provided she still wants to and believes in the team around her and most importantly has faith in herself.
I kinda hope she and new team moves the 3 lutz to a different place in the rink as well as moves it within her programs, as psychologically this type of change could potentially turn things around, since by now her muscle memory and own attitude is likely always ready to fall on it, rather than land the %^&$ jump! Putting it somewhere else, could make all the difference! Go Cynthia! I am not ready to give up on her yet!
I'm torn because I adore both Cynthia's and Amelie's skating. Amelie has certainly been more consistent on the GP and put in an OK performance at Cup of Russia but Cynthia tends to rise for nationals. I hope that nationals will make them both bring out their A-games
Thank you for doing the historical research; I didn't seriously follow FS back then so I knew nothing of it. Anyway, good luck to Cynthia, if she could keep those nerves in check she could still accomplish quite a bit more in her career.
Cynthia's Wikipedia page says she's using the same exact programs as last year. She isn't really, is she? Both SP and FS?
Maybe she'll have different costumes. We can hope about that and also that the coaching change HAS made the difference she needed.
From Nomad: 'ETA: Chouinard bombed in the LP at the '96 Canadian Nats. She landed one clean triple. She fell on the lutz, stepped out of the loop, and doubled everything else. No combo jumps at all.'
I was there. Chouinard skated very badly and Robinson had a great skate. Everyone thought she deserved to win at the time, and that they were seeing a 'changing of the guard', so to speak. Chouinard was crying so hard at the podium ceremony she had to helped from the rink door to the podium by Susan Humphreys (the bronze medalist).
Thanks for the info. I would have liked to have seen Robinson's skate; Chouinard's was so painful to watch.
I thought Robinson's was awful, too, and she didn't have Chouinard's basic skating skills, but the one thing she had was some fight and aggression at the end of the program, which Chouinard didn't. I thought that Susan Humphreys should have actually won the free skate, and probably would have under COP, but since the only triples she landed were sals and toe-loops, she got dumped by the judges. She also had a disastrous short program, so I'm not sure who the right winner overall should have been in that mess of a competition. I did think that Chouinard should have gone to Worlds regardless of the Nationals results, as I've never believed that Nationals should be the only factor considered in determining a world team. Or at a minimum, they could have had Chouinard's World spot contingent on a decent skate at the Champion Series Final, which was held after Canadians that year.
I don't think this situation is at all the same. Neither Amelie nor Cynthia have had spectacular international results this year - Amelie's have been marginally better, but not enough to justify giving her a spot at Worlds if she can't beat Cynthia at Canadians. In this case, I think battling out at Canadians and letting the winner go to Worlds is as good a method as any to decide the team. Or if it's a close competition, I wouldn't object to having the spot decided after 4CC.
Aww, that's sad, but thanks for sharing.
I'm going by memory here but IIRC, Josée later said after her disastrous skate that she'd been looking too much beyond Nats (i.e. wanted to peak at Worlds) and that contributed to her not being focused enough on that event.
Cynthia's comment seems shades of that so maybe that's what berthesghost meant. But fingers crossed obviously that it turns out differently for her!
She will have to bomb rather badly not to be sent. She really is that much better than the rest of the field as a skater.
If the lutz is not consistent, I say take it out even. She doesn't need it. Something like this will be enough for her to win Nationals if clean:
3loop2toe, 3toe, 2axel
3loop2toe, 3toe2toe2loop, 3loop, 3sal, 3toe, 2axel2toe, 2axel
She will then have 2 more months to work on the lutz.
That says more about the field that it does about Phaneuf - she'd have trouble making the podium in the US, Japan or Russia, let alone winning the title.
I'm willing to be surprised about a reinvented Cynthia under Orser, but I'm sure not holding my breath waiting for it.
Podium? She would likely not be given any GP slots or even senior Bs if she competed for those 3 countries and skated like she normally did.
Truth is, even if she nailed her jumps, she would still be the same old skater with great basics, presence and musicality but the emptiest, most boring programs ever. (and I say this with love)
ITA agree with you about the great basics and empty dull programs. And I don't find her programs don't really suit here and that as result, her programs don't seem sincere and I don't buy her emotional expression. But I blame that more on the federation and her team, not Cynthia herself.
If she skated the way she did the year she placed fifth at worlds in both the SP and LP, she might make the podiums in those countries and get GP assignments. Course, that's a very big 'if'
The only other times she was clean were pre-COP.
And the lutz success rate in recent seasons have been
I wish she had made the change much sooner.
IMO, Cynthia's biggest problem is that she stalks her jumps. As soon as I see her stroke then slow up, I know a jump is coming. Much of the time, when she does this, she either pops or falls.
If Orser can break her of this habit, she will be more successful.
Yes! I can ALWAYS tell when Cynthia is going to botch a jump, you can see it coming before she even takes off.
Exactly. This is what concerns me about allowing her to go by instinct. Makes it sound like it's ok to pop a jump if she doesn't feel good or something.
It's like she needs to be taught the other way...like Frank Carroll. Apparently in practice you pay a big price if you don't rotate the triple if you are attempting one...to teach you never to bail.
Ah well, leave it to the experts....
Let me share what I remember from 1996 to make the picture fuller.
JRo was second in the short with a fab skate to The Mission. Totally clean including 3Z+2T and a 3L. Josee won the short after doing 2.5 rotations on the lutz and coming out forwards and totally missing the combo. She should have been way down.
You see on the net that Josee landed the second 3Z only in the LP. At least it was a big jump. I hated the LP when I first saw it but really grew to love it.
Jen was really slow. If memory serves she landed 3 triples including a 2S+3T+SEQ, 3L and 3Z near the end. I remember the lutz not being perfect but it's what got her over the hump. The 2S was supposed to be 3S and she missed the first lutz and the other loop. Her other 2 jumping passes were a 2A and a 2F+1A+SEQ....should have been a 2A in the sequence. She skated after Josee...either second last or last...and pulled marks that looked like 5.4/5.6 to Josee's 5.0/5.8...kinda thing.
Now as for the rules CFSA (now Skate Canada) had at the time. Again, IIRC the rule at the time was the Canadian champ automatically went to worlds, so CFSA was already hemmed by their own rule. After 1996 CFSA instituted the 'Josee' rule that goes something like:
*if Canada has 2 or 3 entries for worlds the national champ automatically goes. The other 1-2 entries are determined by national and international results over the past year.
*if Canada has only 1 entry then committee decides who goes based on national and international results...
So if that rule had been in place for 1996, Josee would have gone to Edmonton, clearly.
And for this year, the GP results for Cynthia and Amelie are not significantly different to warrant sending anyone other than the national champion. So, Moncton will be a pressure cooker!
All of her faults could change with a great coach. I hope she is happy and does well with him.
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