Pechalat/Bourzat move to Shpilband

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by morqet, May 20, 2013.

  1. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    I honestly think their FD has a lot of potential. I really like the details in the movement, the musical nuances as expressed through their bodies.
  2. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    It's quirky, fun, engaging, voidy, and has cool hair and sexy lipstick. I see a whole lot to love. :swoon: I hope they medal at Olys. They have been one of my favorite teams for a decade now, since I saw her lick her paw and rub her cat ears in 05. In spite of Navkas headband bedazzling us all, they still managed to be voidy.

    And on that note how the heck did Ice Dance get so damn generic and boring in 10 years? I mean between the million D/S's D/L and the like we were spoiled friggen rotten! I've seen enough lovey dovey, Fred Estaire, o-faced Ethel Merman happy go lucky isn't it swell tra-la-la ice dance programs to last a lifetime at this point.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Blame Zueva!
  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Because we had years of drudgery and over-dramatic dances as if they all went to the school of Bestemianova/Bukin to last a lifetime. This was just a natural reaction, because at the time, the ballroom dances were the unusual ones.
  5. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    There are more than those two options for free dances, though - as P/B, along with some other teams, have shown.
  6. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Of course. But you know how skaters/coaches tend to just go into extremes. Nuance and gray areas aren't really their strong suit.
  7. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    True. I'm thinking back to 2008 Worlds, and while I didn't like every free dance, there seemed to be a lot more variety than there is now. Once the Shpilband/Zoueva teams zoomed up the standings, that became the standard and there aren't a lot of teams who really try to come up with interesting concepts as P/B do (not always successfully, I'll allow).
  8. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    There was also a horrible tendency that continued even after the transition from 6.0 to IJS, where ranking was impossibly set in stone, to require teams that wanted to move into Top 8-10 to appear "mature" with empty uber-drama and hair tossing. Then there were the teams that didn't move up and were stuck there. It was like watching really bad adolescence.
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  9. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    I'm no expert, but here are my guesses as to where/why key points were missed.

    Key Point 2 on the first Finnstep sequence:
    The problem occurs on the lady’s step 21, a twizzle of 1.5 rotations entered into on a right back inside edge and exited on a right forward outside edge. Nathalie performs this step with the correct entry edge but comes out on a flat and then leans onto the correct edge. In order to get credit for this step she has to come out of the twizzle on the correct edge. I am posting a video of the whole key point (steps 20 and 21) but you really want to be looking at the video at 2:12, which is when Nathalie exits the twizzle. The camera angle was excellent here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvFAeMEkog&feature=youtu.be&t=130s

    I agree with the call but I'm not sure it would have been the same at SA. A few of us are discussing the calling for this key point over here:

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...vourite-for-the-Ice-Dance-Olympic-gold/page10

    Second Finnstep Sequence:

    Here is the video of the first two key points of the second sequence (they are occurring simultaneously as KP1 is the lady’s steps and KP2 is the man’s steps).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvFAeMEkog&feature=youtu.be&t=138s

    Key Point 1:
    This step is a left forward outside edge to right back inside edge swing closed choctaw with a subsequent change to an outside edge (still on the right foot). This edge becomes the entry edge for a twizzle of 1.5 rotations with a right forward inside exit edge. It looks like Nathalie doesn't show a clear enough right back inside edge to exit the choctaw (step 32). If you pause it at the moment she changes the edge (beginning of 2:19), you can see that her weight doesn't look to be quite on the back side of the blade’s rocker to facilitate with the edge.

    Key Point 2:
    The first part of this key point is the same for him (the LFO to RBI swing closed choctaw). Fabian then has to perform an open mohawk on this same right back inside edge, exiting on a left forward inside edge. This looked very clean to me. He then steps onto his right forward inside edge (again, he executed this cleanly) and performs a single twizzle, and is then supposed to exit on a right forward inside edge and slide to a halt on this edge. We don’t get a good angle of this and the snow from the slide obscures the view of the blade, but based on how clean everything else in steps 32 and 33 were for him, I would guess that the issue was on the exit from the twizzle to the slide into stop (2:22), which is supposed to be a performed on a right forward inside edge. I was surprised he didn’t get credit for this step.

    Key Point 3:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvFAeMEkog&feature=youtu.be&t=155s

    This is a left forward inside to right back outside closed choctaw with free leg crossed behind followed by a three turn on that right back outside edge, and then a twizzle of 1.5 rotations entered into on a right forward inside edge. In the choctaw in step 64 when Nathalie changes edges (very beginning of 2:36) she doesn’t quite show a clear right back outside edge (she again appears to have gotten a little forward on the rocker of her blade).

    I honestly think this was just a bit of a rough outing. I am thinking that, due to debut jitters, Nathalie had a hard time settling onto her blades. I have to say, though, that I absolutely loved Nathalie’s little shimmy in the crossing paths section of the Finnstep. How many teams do something special like that with the pattern dance?
    I hope they rework this SD to include more of Fosse's choreo. They are more than capable of doing it. I particularly like how Nathalie works movement through her torso. She can really move.
  10. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    It's all fine and dandy to look at the protocols and explain backward why a team gets credit for a key point and why another team doesn't, but can you honestly look at each video and determine whether every key point is met? How often is a fan's visual judgment on a key point agrees with the protocol? And, if your judgment differs from the protocol, should we believe the fan or the caller on site?

    I tried this myself a few times and I can never make heads and tails of the callers' judgment on key points in a consistent way. I want to blame it on different camera angles, blurriness/quality, and lack of slow motion on YouTube videos, but I've also tried to do it in live competition (I stared really hard), and I still don't get why someone gets a Y or a N in a protocol because what I saw was consistent with the protocol with a regularity no better than chance. Either my eyes are not believable or the callers are not consistent, or both.

    For example, look at the same KP in FS2 by two teams in the video below:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVgO8FMO2NI&t=114s
    and:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvFAeMEkog&feature=youtu.be&t=155s

    It looks to me that both female partners had about the same lean on the RBO exit of the choctaw. But one got Y and one got N. Can you predict that before checking the protocols? I can't. How much of an outside edge is clear enough to get a Y? Who says? (Or this -- How deep do the edges have to be? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06mc7qKR6dc&t=118s)

    Or, for FS1KP2, compare the same KP in two couples below:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvFAeMEkog&feature=youtu.be&t=130s
    and
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVgO8FMO2NI&t=89s

    How massively different are the girls' exist edges? It seems pretty physically impossible to demand that the exit edge on a twizzle has to lean very far in order to get credit. Twizzles have to be done with the body upright. Why is it so bad that, at the conclusion of a twizzle, the skater is upright? It's not an edge turn. The KP is supposed to be about the twizzle overall, isn't it? Seems to me that credit is due when the twizzle is done reasonably well without stumble or stutter or 3-turn like.

    And, it seems to me, that most of the time the judgment of what is "clear edge" is pretty subjective and easily at risk of inconsistency and bias. Of course, I have to acknowledge that official callers have the advantage of (vastly more) experience, better camera angle, and slow motion replay, over average fans staring at the screen or even first-row live competition.

    Regardless, for something so minute and so subjective, I can't help but question the value of key points in judging the overall quality of ice dancing. What about the rest of the compulsory patterns? As long as you hit the 3 artificially selected KPs, you can fudge the rest of the steps? That seems to be the message.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
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  11. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Jun Y, i share your sentiments. Sometimes i see the missed key points in real time or in slo-mo and can predict when credit will or will not be given. But like i alluded to in my post above, SA was surprising to me (see the bookie thread in the Trash Can). I thought the calling was generous for both D&W and C&L. And i was surprised when Fabian didn't get credit for FS2KP2 at CoC. I wish we had access to the footage they use when reviewing a key point.

    And i too think that carriage, articulation of the free leg, unison, close positions, etc. are undervalued in the way the patterns are evaluated.
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  12. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    I just cannot get worked up over the KPs. Sure, some skaters are CLEARLY unable to perform their choctaw or mohawk on secure edges and they should be dinged, but how much is good enough? KPs are judged on a dichotomous scale, yay or nay, which I think is very unfair and inaccurate to begin with. To let 3 arbitrarily picked steps determine a substantial portion of the score while letting the rest of the program go (yes, I'm exaggerating but not much) ... I just don't see the point. What about the speed and ease of executing the pattern? What if someone hits the edges clearly but does so with smaller coverage or weaker upper body control? Can YYY in team 1 and YNN in team 2 be a true reflection of how different their qualities are? Can one learn what's good skating and what's less good skating by the summation of the rules written on the books? The closer to Olympics we get the more I wonder about it, and that applies to all disciplines, not just ice dancing.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  13. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all of your sentiments Jun Y. I think that IJS hasn't been very good with how it's been handling ice dancing.

    All of the issues you have mentioned should be considered by the judges when evaluating the GOE but... :p
  14. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I have wanted to like P&B so much over the years and appreciated their originality. But none of their programs really worked for me, until this one. I love it - watched it three times in a row. It is up there among my faves.

    I think it will be a battle between W&P and P&B for bronze, and that battle will be more exciting the non-battle for gold, which seems decided already. That is, unless the fix is in for a bronze for B&S, whose free dance just does not inspire this season.
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    D/W's SP score at NHK was 73.7. V/M's at SC was 73.15. This is just the GP. I think it's a little soon to call the battle for gold decided.
  16. Tweak

    Tweak New Member

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    I agree as well. There will probably be more teams in the 10th to 24th place rank getting the key points than the top 5 in Sochi.
    Ice Dance Technical Committee :soapbox::lynch::lynch:

    On another note, I heard the IDTC is looking at a new SD format in the future. Instead of having two sequences of a CD pattern repeated, the SD will have just one sequence of the pattern, and the second sequence will have steps the skaters can create themselves. Slowly phasing out the CD with time...
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  17. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I really hope that you are right.
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    That is quite sad. At the moment the patterns aren't repeated. It's just one pattern split into two parts.

    It would be cool to have an additional pattern created by the skaters but keep the one compulsory pattern at least!
  19. Tweak

    Tweak New Member

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    Exactly. They are going about it the wrong way. Either keep the whole one pattern or get rid of it altogether and just have the OD format. Much harder to compare apples to apples with just the one sequence of the pattern anyways.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  20. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    We've come the way from two CDs at a competiton, through one CD, through a little piece of CD inside the SD to an even smaller part of CD inside the SD. This way CD is sentenced to die. It was already punched, stabbed and shot in the head. How much more can the poor thing take? :(
  21. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Then it would be a combination of my two favorite formats for anything in skating: CD and OSP. Then if they'd banish any other elements to the very beginning and end and make the skaters choose one piece of music...
  22. dcnative

    dcnative New Member

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    THANK YOU SO MUCH for this analysis. It's very helpful.
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    The problem with the KPs in something like the Finnstep is that they are kind of blink and you miss them. And you have to have such an indepth knowledge of what you are looking for. I love ice dance but looking that indepth does my head in. Thanks Bournekraatzfan.
  24. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    And perhaps this "indepth" description of what the judges are supposed to be looking at is what is causing some calls to be incorrect. However, if they are judging, then they need to know for what they are looking and ensure their eyes are wide open and glued for when those KPs are about to happen. If you can't perform the task, then perhaps it's time to do more studying. It's not right that some skaters are getting dinged on their levels while others get a pass because someone either didn't know what to look for or they blinked at the wrong time. Sorry, it's your job and you should be fully prepared to do it correctly.
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The technical panel is responsible for calling key points. The judges are responsible for marking the quality of the pattern on the whole.
  26. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    And there are 3 sets of eyes on the tech panel, all of whom can register a problem with a key point, so all 3 have to miss any problem, for the step to avoid review.

    Then, during review, a vote by the panel determines the call.
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Key Points are also their only thing to call during that phase of the SD. Once they determine the pattern starts, there are no surprises/changes to distract them.
  28. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    That's true, but at top-tier national and international events, shouldn't everyone involved in marking a program know what they're looking at on the ice? The judges may be responsible for marking the quality of the pattern on the whole, but they should also be aware of what's involved with the steps.

    Just to throw this out there, if a team misses a key point, they didn't do the step correctly. In a CD pattern, should missing a step also be taken into account when evaluating the quality of what the team is doing?
  29. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I am not an expert, but I think that the general answer is no. There are levels for marking down those who do the steps/key points incorrectly. Judges look at the rest. But, of course, if a key point is missed because of a visible stumble or because of flat edges almost throughout, judges should mark the pattern down too, which they most likely do.
  30. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that about me specifically or just judges generally? I am not a senior dance judge. But as others have said the tech panel's job is to look at those things. The judges look at timing and quality.
  31. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If it's the tech panel's responsibility to review missed steps that aren't part of the key patterns, and there isn't a line item they're responsible for that shows up on the protocols -- i the only thing there are the key points, and timing is one of the ways they can mark down, if the team doesn't do the key point at the right time, so there's at least some overlap with the judging team -- how does their call translate into the score? Do they enter something that comes up on the judges' screens? If the tech panel calls a missed step or phrase, are the judges required to mark down? Is there a majority vote among the judges? Is there referee supposed to do something?
  32. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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  33. acraven

    acraven Active Member

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    I've always assumed that the technical panel looks only at the key points when establishing the level of the pattern dance segments in the short dance. Other steps in the pattern are not its concern. Isn't that the way it works? The presentation in the protocol implies that this is the case.

    The judges are certainly responsible for evaluating the overall quality of each of the two pattern dance segments, so it's in their GOEs that we should see a reflection of execution errors on steps other than those falling within the key points, as well as problems occurring on the key points. It does seem odd that the level is dependent only on the quality of the specified key points, but the judges should come down hard on a team that botches much of the pattern while doing a great job on the key points; and I think it would be tough to thread that particular needle, anyway.

    I'm not a skater or very knowledgeable about ice dance, but I assume that all the top teams are totally capable of hitting Level 4 on the pattern dances (and on the step sequences). I think the issue is hitting Level 4 while skating with the power/speed/expression necessary to get competitive PCS scores. Because of the timing requirements, dancers can't skate most of the Finnstep with flamboyant abandon and turn cautious when they hit the key points in order to assure Level 4. I suspect that the establishment of pattern dance levels goes a long way toward assuring that the dancers don't tilt too much toward expression at the expense of precision and timing, and three key points may be about as good as six key points for that purpose.

    I could well be wrong about this; I'm just musing here.
  34. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Because some key points involve 2 skaters (both male and female partners), the tech panel will split the responsibility in these cases. For example, if a key point requires both male and female skaters hit 4 criteria, there is no way one caller can see everything, so one caller will look at the male skater and the other will look at the female. In many cases, you have just a single person deciding whether a KP is Y or N. The way KP is set up, it makes no distinction between one of the 2 skaters coming out of a twizzle with a slightly flat edge that one particular caller does not like (or a casual observing fan does not like, on FSU) and both partners who cannot hold an outside edge.

    Key points determine the level of each pattern (there are two patterns in each short dance). The point a team can receive from Level 1 to Level 4 ranges from 3.00 to 7.00, ie, 4 points are at risk for these 3 blink-and-you-miss-it split-second steps. The entire rest, everything else in the pattern, from size to timing to unison to posture to ..., is determined by judges in the GOE, which ranges from -1.5 to 1.5. You can slip the beats, skate a small pattern, wobble on the non-KP steps and edges, bent your legs and arms, and not match your partner, and the worst you get is 3 points below the best, perfectly executed pattern. Think about it. Levels can make or break a team's placement, and levels are determined by one or two people. GOEs are averaged from 5 to 7 judges. Judges consider "everything else," but they actually have less power, proportionally, than the callers, in the TES. Yes, judges then take their power back in PCS, where they tend to go crazy to compensate for their lack of power in TES.

    I'm sorry but I have to laugh after spending a long time trying strenuously to understand the IDTC's impenetrable and ornate way of thinking. It implies an obsession to control every detail which leads to a tunnel vision that excludes a lot of important things and loses the sense of proportion.

    I get it. Figure skating wants to APPEAR respectable and fair, and the way they try to achieve that is to pretend figure skating can be counted. As if something that is fundamentally subjective and complex can be made precise and objective by simply slapping on it a number with 2 digits after the decimal point. Can better and worse skating be distinguished by the degree of lean the female partner's blade out of a particular twizzle in a split second out of a half-minute pattern? (Not to mention there is no evidence to assure me that the standard applied is consistent across different callers.) If only life were that simple. Obviously IDTC does not live in the real world where good skating contains many, many, many other qualities they are unable to measure and slap on a number. No wonder the ice dance we see today has declined so quickly and so far in terms of these other qualities that have not been "quantified." Why should skaters bother to spend time training on skills that merely look beautiful and moving and original but do not have a "price tag"?

    Yes, I know, one can argue that the unquantifiable "everything else" is not lost but included in the program component scores. Take one look at how ice dancers are skating today and you know how much has been lost because the writing is on the wall. Handhold variations? Closeness? Beautifully held postures and extension? Matched leg lines? Lifts in which the man is not in a spread-eagle or one-foot position?!

    My hats off to every competitive ice dancer who trains 4 hours every day for months and years in order to achieve their dreams. If I had children I would not let them participate in this sport for competition. I would not let their dreams and sweat and lives be judged in such an artificial and nonsensical system.

    I don't know if it's ever possible to make ice dance a "real sport." Maybe not. But for a long time ice dance represented the ideals of skating skills. Does it still? I have my doubts.
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  35. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Sorry AW, I wasn't saying that about you specifically. Not only that, I should have said tech panel and not judges when referring to GOE level. Been a long day and have had too many days in a row battling headaches. Some days I just get the wrong word stuck in my head and I can't find the right one.
  36. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    No problem. :) Thanks.
  37. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    When marking the GOE the judges are supposed to consider how many of the steps were performed correctly. So whilst the technical panel is only supposed to look at four steps, the judges are supposed to be checking all of them. :p
  38. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    When judging the pattern sections of the SD, you are looking at percentages in terms of how correctly the dance is done. If 75% of the dance is done correctly with shallow edges, along with the correct holds and 75% of the correct pattern, then that is still a base value. So even if the key points are not met, if most of the pattern is met, then a judge can still give it base.
  39. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    ITA, especially with all of this.
  40. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    When I wrote steps/key points, key points/"key" steps was what I actually meant, simply the way how I wrote that was unclear. I know full well that levels are not determined (by the technical panel) on all steps, but just on key points. By the way, there are three key points in each pattern (or part of the pattern), not four. Level 1 is when all three key points are missed, and 4 is when all three are done correctly ;).