Pechalat/Bourzat move to Shpilband

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by morqet, May 20, 2013.

  1. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    FWIW I think we lost creative P&B a long time ago, back in 2009 with the Circus FD. It was cheesy and not befitting their talents. Chaplin was wonderful (though felt a bit like Circus II), but their other recent FDs (Time, Arabian, and Rolling Stones) have been mediocre for their standards, although I admire how they commit to different music styles. IMO their best work was The Four Seasons and Madness, and I also liked the ideas in their earlier FDs such as Che Guevera, Cats, and Les Miz, even if they were unpolished then (diamonds in the rough, innit? ;)).

    I'm not too worried about Sphilband ruining that part of them. In fact I was kinda meh when I heard their choreographers for this season were circus oriented.

    I don't believe Shpilband will mess with their ideas too much, but he probably will take out a lot of the transitions, making the dance less interesting, but which will probably result in more polish and speed. That's disappointing but understandable. The IJS does not seem to value transitions at all in ice dance, going to back the days of DelSchoes and DenSta. It is mystifying to me, especially since Chan and Kostner seem to get tons of credit for that in the singles... since when are things like skating skills, choreography, and transitions valued more in singles than in ice dance? I don't get it, but if P&B want a medal they need to play the game and Shpilband knows the game.

    BTW and o/t, do we know for sure if Igor choreo'd C&B's Dr. Z FD? It looks more like Marina's work to me so I was wondering if it was possible that she did it before they left.

    Basically I'm curious what his non-Marina work will look like and I'm not sure if last season counts because of his abruptly having to leave and not getting the time to fully work on his ideas (plus TAT's interference with R&T)... going back to his early 2000s stuff for B&A, I liked it a lot, but it was 6.0 stuff.
     
  2. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Didn't he do Punsalan/Swallow's brilliant Tango FD in Nagano? They should have placed in the top three in at least the FD portion. Of course, tangos seem to be Igor's specialty.
     
  3. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    oh i would like to hear cappellini/lanotte about this.

    hope this will not push them backwards.

    don't know what to think about this move, from whomever it was initiated. i really liked p/b under zhulin but absolutely didn't like the under krylova/carmalengo, who i funnily like as coaches.

    so in this regard this may be an improvement, i hope it's not bad for the italians.
     
  4. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    What's the theme?
     
  5. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    None of the teams you mentioned are at the level of D&S (whom you seem to intensely dislike) and V&M (whom you seem to adore) where skills and execution is concerned. They are getting fair credit. If the teams you mentioned started beating these top two teams right now, THAT would be unfair.
     
  6. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you guys could make a separate thread in trash can for this topic.
     
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  7. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    Cappellini/Lanotte, Pechalat/Bourzat, and Jones/Carron were training in Lyon with team Zazoui not so long ago. It's funny to see them with Igor now. I am guessing that C/L may continue after Sochi, right?
    Igor is a master at getting high levels for the steps, spins, lifts. He will get them boring steps, but will get them level 4s on a consistent basis. I thought that P/B lost creativity in their lifts and spins lately. Do Marina and Igor work with the same acrobats? P/B used to have spectacular acrobatic lifts like the neck on neck one. Rules have changed since, but they need to take risks in the lift again.
     
  8. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I loved the tangos he did for L&T as well. Their dances and P&S' had certain intricacies that wouldn't play well under CoP, I think.

    The thing about C&L is I never feel like they pass anyone for good. Last Worlds they beat B&S, but this year were passed by them. This Worlds they beat P&B, but I still consider P&B the stronger skaters. The CoP allows for dancers to win on the day when someone else is having technical problems, but it will be hard for C&L to permanently pass a team like P&B because C&L's skating skills are much weaker and they lack speed. I don't see them as the current 4th best team in the world. Even I&K would pass them easily (from 9th at Worlds) with a good skate next season. Speed is everything now, apparently, and C&L need to work on it to be considered part of the upper echelon.

    I pretty much take for granted that a healthy P&B will surpass C&L. Their issue will be B&S. Man, P&B coming in 4th at the Olympics would be (will be, probably) such a punch in the gut. At least they'll go down fighting now.

    Hm, is she in danger of being the next Linichuk? Her teams were always about good basics, creativity, intricate choreography, nice lines... and these things don't seem to be rewarded right now.
     
  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    P/B left Lyon five years ago, when they were still the second French team. Wasn't that a major reason why they left? Either way, it's not exactly a recent thing...
     
  10. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    Guuuuuuuuurllllllll ..... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. The entire post is a S T RRRRR eeeeeeeeeeeeeee t chhhhhhhh.

    Not only is it a stretch, I believe it is total, ummm HOOOOOOEY.
     
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Seriously. I feel like people are just repeating the same criticisms over and over for four seasons straight without acknowledging improvements made. This goes to almost every skater who has had some technical issues but made strides to improve. Repetition isn't truth.
     
  12. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Stop trying to make this about V/M vs. D/W there are other great teams and this thread is about P/B. Thats how I understood marathongirl76 comment. There are better teams out there than D/W and P/B is one of them because their style isn't so bland (even though I have to admit I didn't like their programs under Krylova. Although, I find in the last quad only them and V/M and perhaps Z/G have made ice dance more refreshing by bringing new and interesting stuff) and I, too am tired of seeing them getting shafted.
     
  13. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130520&content_id=48059344&vkey=ice_news

    Another article but nothing new. Just repeating the basic facts. I just thought it was interesting they listed only Chock/Bates and Tobias/Stagniunas. No Cappellini/Lanotte, of course they also failed to mention P&B's poor showing at Worlds also had to do with an injury and lack of training so maybe it means nothing but I am interested to hear what they think about it all.
     
  14. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

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    I thought they already did. :confused:
     
  15. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Uh oh...
     
  16. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    It seems to me last seasons results put them pretty darn close the upper echelon. P&B were injured so we can't evaluate C&L vis-a-vis them last season, but they finished ahead of B&S in the Free Dance at worlds and were neck-in-neck with them a lot. Top Four? Top Five? They are certainly ahead of WeaPo at this point. I think they are being under-rated by a lot of people.
     
  17. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

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    It is hard for me to be unbiased about C/L. Do I like them because they skate so good or because they are so gorgeous to look at? I'm not sure.
     
  18. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    My favorite line of the month.
     
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  19. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I like C&L, but their results need to be consistent over the season for me to consider them solidly at the top. P&B and W&P were injured, I&K had a terrible Worlds. C&L lost to both B&S and I&K at Euros. So, they've done well keeping their nerve together and taking advantage of others' mistakes (which is a big deal for them because C&L used to make mistakes much more), but I think there's at least 5 teams the judges prefer to C&L if those teams skate clean.
     
  20. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Not going to lie, I really wanted the Shibutanis to move to Shpilband. He has coached them before (to a bronze medal at Worlds with Zueva) and the Shibs keep suffering because of TES issues. Their PCS aren't going to be as high as other teams so they do need to improve on that, but they can't afford to give away TES points that they used to be able to bank on either.
     
  21. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Isn't this also true of the "they've improved" line though? I keep reading how D&W have improved, but I'm seeing similar choreography to their 2009 and 2010 FDs, with similar construction and similar, if not outright the same, elements. I see the same line and posture issues, and space between them in the pattern dances. They haven't changed up their twizzles in 5 years; other teams do. I've yet to see a detailed breakdown of all these improvements, just vague assertions about their passion, connection, and speed. I imagine anyone would get better at executing similar moves over several years, so I don't see them as an outstanding example of an improvement arc. The other poster was OTT in declaring they don't deserve to be in the top 10, but at least he/she gave skating related reasons for their opinion which other people can then dispute.
     
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  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, there are tons of other threads where this has been discussed. Many gave reasons how D/W have improved their lines, holds, edges (especially Meryl), and controlling their speed. Their twizzles and lifts might be similar season after season, but they were already some of the highest scored elements since IJS was implemented and are continually scored high.

    Plus, I think if one is going to argue that the judges are judging them incorrectly, then the burden of persuasion is on that person to show where and how the judges got it wrong. I mean making vague comments about them having no edging, skipping around, deserving to be out of the top 9 may be skating-related reasons, but I wouldn't necessarily call them substantive.

    Anyway, someone who is actually a fan of Davis/White (I personally prefer Virtue/Moir much more myself) can take over for me because I have not scrutinized the evolution of Davis/White's skills to an extent that a dedicated fan or hater would have. I'm only going by my casual fan's observations and I definitely noticed a marked improvement from 2010 to 2013.
     
  23. marathongirl76

    marathongirl76 Active Member

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    I've been paying plenty of attention to D/W's skating, and seeing them skate at Worlds in London further validated why I don't like their skating: bent knees and bodies in all their positions, scrappy stroking, over-the-top expression, and entirely forgettable programs that don't make any impact on me in the way of originality, creativity or difficulty.

    Back to the thread topic, if we're going to compare D/W to to P/B, let's take a look by elements: D/W's so-called speed is not generated from soft knee bends and the blade, but rather, from the toe-picks, whereas P/B are regularly praised for their soft knees and as such, ability to generate fluid speed; D/W hop into their twizzles, which falsely creates the illusion of momentum, as compared to P/B's skating into and out of theirs; P/B's twizzles maintain speed and cover more ice, and they vary their arm movements to keep in character of their music, while D/W have been doing the exact same twizzle set (the added the hop in 2011); P/B's lifts, when show better balance and control on both their parts, and have them entering and exiting into them on one foot, and the general absence of clutching, grabbing and holding onto each other for dear life life D/W; and P/B's ability to interpret many different types of music and characters convincingly. I didn't much care for their Stones FD (because I didn't think it was overall as difficult as past FDs of theirs, but they were true to the theme.

    P/B still lack the refinement and difficulty (in their lifts) to really challenge V/M, but with good material and cleaned up technique under Igor, they should be back on the podium next season.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  24. marathongirl76

    marathongirl76 Active Member

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    Totally agree with you here...titles should not be won by applause meter, but on the basis on actual content under the COP system. I think though there is still lots of ambiguity around the ice dance scoring as compared to the other disciplines. This is further perpetuated by the the mostly well-meaning but ignorant commentators, and utterly ignorant media.





    Change for the sake of change isn't great either. It too bad the fans think that the same team winning for more than 2 seasons in a row is wrong somehow. It may be boring to some but for me it's more an indication of how strong technically and artistically certain teams are. I love seeing teams that are good enough to come back year after year and continue to improve and stay ahead of the pack. I realize that puts me in the minority. I hate the idea of taking turns and passing titles back and forth simply to keep up the excitement for the audience. How about really inform the audience about all the ins and outs of icedance. Not give informative commentary only to set it off/counter it with double standards and use of passive/aggressive barbs directed at the less popular teams/teams that the American audience might not appreciate as much. Remarks meant to make the audience think that some teams are better than they are and others are worse than they are.
     
  25. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    If I'm honest, I'm gonna say a bit of both. I loved their Requiem for a Dream for the way it's concept actually was woven into the choreography, but frankly, I think Anna was so effin' gorgeous in that dance that I couldn't even be remotely impartial. I think they have lovely chemistry and are very attractive on the ice, and when they have programs that work for them (La Strada, their Latin SD) they're very memorable. I can't overlook her poorer skating skills and I expect they'll be the ones left out next season (I expect them to drop of the European podium/Olympic top five), but I do think they're enjoyable to watch
     
  26. marathongirl76

    marathongirl76 Active Member

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    What improvements, exactly? Their line/posture: still poor; twizzles: still doing two twizzle sets, in contrast to most other teams in the top 10 who are doing three twizzle sets, covering more ice, maintaining speed and varying their arm movements in character with the music (and no, that hop into D/W's twizzles does not make it harder, it is creating false momentum); their lifts: two footed skating into and out of them, with poor/facile positions, lots of clutching, grabbing, and hanginng out to each other for dear life instead of using their core strength to hold their positions. Their so-called speed is not generated from soft knees and the blade, but rather, picking along the ice, and kicking up snow in the process.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  27. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    You are a very funny person.
     
  28. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    marathongirl76 - Most FSU posters put their comments under the quoted section of text. It makes the conversation easier to follow.

    Also, there is a multi-quote feature: if you click that little box under each post with a quote sign and a plus sign, then hit "reply with quote" for the last post you want to quote, you will get a reply box featuring all three posts in separate quote boxes, so you can write underneath each one. Hope that makes sense.
     
  29. marathongirl76

    marathongirl76 Active Member

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    Thanks for the tip...wanted to reference one section of the text, and I somehow deleted it all, and I couldn't delete the whole entire post and start from scratch.
     
  30. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad they are moving to Shpilband. K&P are great, but I think they are too emotionally involved with W&P to be 100% in P/B's corner.

    Of course C/L are arguably greater competition for bronze now, but I don't see the same issues developing in Igor's camp.

    Best of luck to all the teams this year!