Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanfan1818, Oct 29, 2013.
I do think V&M are retired 90% likely.
Top 10 at their first Worlds, and two GP spots guaranteed (assuming that rule doesn't change), and with crap starting orders.
Gilles & Poirier will likely be Canadian #2 by next years Canadians, so it will be Weaver & Poje and Paul & Islam fighting for the 3rd spot should V&M return.
Someone with 12 posts has enough experience of watching figure skating to predict what will happen next year? I think not.
For now, I'll just continue to enjoy Paul/Islam's great performances and very good results at worlds. Next season is next season, but I'm sure Paul/Islam will continue their trajectory of rapid improvement into next season. With their higher profile and greatly improved confidence, they should do well, barring injury.
And as for Weaver/Poje fighting for 3rd spot, that's just laughable.
W/P are beating G/P with over a 20 points margin right now. With Tessa & Scott probably retiring, W/P are clearly #1 in Canada, G/P right now aren't competitve with W/P.
Anyway, I'm so happy for Alex&Mitch that they finally had their international breakthrough. IMO, it can only get up,up away for them
I assume 13 posts only means new to these boards? However, I agree with Marta. No way G/P will attain Kaitlyn and Andrew's level in one more year. I, personally, prefer P/I to Paul and Piper, but power and athletisiscm appear to be the benchmark for ice dance these days. Too bad, IMHO.
Well, they skated their short dance a full two groups earlier than G/P (for example), even though the teams are of comparable ranking. I think start order isn't a big issue if you're a team that the judges recognize, but for a team with no international pedigree at all (and a deceptively poor ranking from the Olympics) I think it can be abitof a hindrance. It's not a huge deal, and it doesn't excuse the technical hits they took in the SD, but it's foolish to think it had no impact on their components at all. I suppose, in terms of performance ability, whether or not you like their style is a matter of personal opinion. In terms of actual skating skills, though, it's hard to deny that these two have them (unison, smoothness, edges, etc.). You can see it when you watch them. So to see them fall behind teams like Coomes/Buckland and Sinistra/Zhiganshin (and G/P, sorry) who look sloppier and less refined (at least IMO) in those specific areas on the basis of their components score (and not because of technical weaknesses) seems a bit suspect. I think they paid a bit more for their lack or reputation than their start orders, to be honest, but I really don't have a huge issue with their scores or their placement. They skated well, they were happy, they made the top 10 and they had their first good, solid season in three years. Actually, I'm just watching the network broadcast and they were interviewing P/I, and they're absolutely beaming. They look so happy with themselves. That's god enough for me.
It's true that P&I did have to skate their SD quite early. But they skated their FD only one flight before G&P and the other teams who placed ahead of them. And they didn't lose out to G&P, C&B or S&Z just because of PCS - their TES was also lower. Mitch also made several minor bobbles.
They are a solid team, but their Nationals results were actually a bit at odds with their International results. Nationals is the only time they have placed ahead of G&P nationally or internationally, so it may have been a panel that preferred their style of dance. And with regard to international pedigree, they've actually been competing internationally (eg. the Grand Prix) for longer than G&P and a couple of the other newer teams ahead of them.
But I agree with what others said above - hopefully both G&P and P&I will be on the podium at Nationals next year so that the fans of both teams don't get into a flame war with one another!
I think PI are a beautiful team both in looks and skating but there is something very tentative about their skating. Hopefully they will gain more confidence with their experience as well as with skating with WP in KC's stable. I think their personalities come across as subdued and so their skating projects in that way too.
I think P&G had a late start this year with his injury but caught up without the Olympic push and distraction. Worlds was harder for those teams who went to Olys.
Paul/Islam skated 14 places before Gilles/Poirier, who skated in the last group in the SD, and before the ice break in the FD, which is significant. This was the first head-to-head international competition since 2012 USIFSC, very early in the season. IMO, it was a great disadvantage for P/I, especially in the SD.
Islam wasn't the only one to have technical issues: Poirier had his own obvious bobble in the twizzles; it was not as if G/P went squeaky clean. Also, PCS isn't the only place where skating later often helps: there's similar inflation in GOEs.
But flame wars are so fun!
Joking aside, this was actually their only match up in significant international competition. G/P beat P/I by a slim margin at the 2012 US Classic, but that was a senior B. As for nationals, it's harder to judge either way. In 2012, P/I were injured when G/P beat them (though G/P were a new team). In 2013, P/I were only about a point behind G/P after the SD. They wiped out in the FD, loosing a whole footwork sequence, so it's hard to say what would have happened if they hadn't done that. This year, P/I won handily, but Paul Poirier has been rehabbing a really serious injury all season. I'm curious to see how things play out when both teams are clean and healthy in the same national competition.
I also agree that P/I's skating can be cautious at times. The 2012 season obviously wreaked havoc with their confidence (they've said as much themselves), and they're only now regaining it, largely due to the fact that they actually got to compete a lot this year (last season, their only major competition was nationals). They competitions and the coaching change is really helping that along. Their confidence seemed to improve here even when compared to Sochi, and I suspect having a full grand prix season next year will help even more. As for international pedigree, while P/I have been around longer, they had only one successful grand prix event before this season (2010 Skate Canada). Other than that, they pulled out of the rest with injury, or weren't assigned to any at all (last season). Their only major international was the 2012 4CC, and it was a disaster for them. That's hardly much to build a reputation on, and I suspect they had been long forgotten by the time this season came along. G/P had a full competitive season last year and a full grand prix season this year. That certainly doesn't hurt.
I think it's obvious that there has been a trend in the judging the past few seasons to reward the more extroverted, flashy style of skating over subtlety and elegance in terms of the PCS and GOE's. We saw it at the Olympics and at worlds this year. I absolutely agree that the panel at this years nationals seemed to be an exception to that, though it is of note that P/I did beat G/P technically at that competition (they did not at Worlds). If that trend continues, it won't bode well for P/I, though there isn't much anyone can do about that. All they can really do is keep skating solid programs and keep their levels up. Flashy isn't their style, and honestly, I'd hate to see them try and do it when their subtlety is so lovely.
Personally, I prefer the subtle, elegant dance based programs. I feel like flashier, more athletic looking skating can act as a smokescreen in the case of some teams. It's easier to cover up flaws in execution or small technical weaknesses when you're skating super fast and doing gimicky tricks without too much dancing in between. Subtle, elegant programs are unforgiving. If you have a weakness, break form, or make a mistake, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Mitch had a couple of bobbles in the FD, and we all saw them, even though they were minuscule. If anything,I think that subtlety can end up hurting you. The hardest thing in this sport is to make the difficult look easy, and I think the problem that P/I and teams like them have is that they can make things look so easy that people are tricked into believing that they actually are easy. P/I change hold a lot during their transitions, for example, which is difficult to do, but they do it so seamlessly that you barely notice. Everyone talks about how being soft and elegant is a sign of good technique, and about how maintaining the integrity of a dance is so difficult, but the teams that can actually do that don't get rewarded in the PCS and GOE's. Deep edges, speed that comes from nowhere (as opposed to hops or running around on a flat blade), unison and skating close together in intricate holds doesn't seem to get a great reward, though it's supposedly the hardest thing to do. I'm using P/I as an example here, but I think this happens on a larger scale with all teams on the international scene. I know that the ISU has said that they want to make modifications to ice dance scoring next year so that actual dancing receives a greater reward (I read an article about this, but don't have the link handy), so I am cautiously optimistic that this will begin to change. I'm not saying this to offend anyone or put down any specific team, and I'm not trying to attack G/P. It's just how I personally feel about ice dance in general.
Skatingfan04 I agree that flashy usually covers up flaws in skating and subtlety is wonderful and that is so true of DW vs VM (IMO). I think this would be true of P&G two years ago but they have come a long way since then.Skating with joy and exuberance is not the same as skating in a flashy way. I really think that P&I have to project outward more to be successful. They need to discover who they are as skaters. And I needs to take a stronger role in the duo. Of course just my opinion
I agree, particularly on the D/W vs VM debate (which I didn't mention above just because I didn't want to open a can of worms). G/P have made huge strides in technique, especially Piper, and i think they're relying a lot less on gimmicky moves and more on actual skating. Their programs felt more complete this season, and less like a collection of random interesting moves put one after another. IMO, they still fall behind P/I in terms of edge quality, smoothness and the distance between them when they skate. I also feel like they have a tendency to pull faces as opposed to actually feeling the musical nuances and connecting to one another, though I felt they were much better on that front as well this season as well. I'm probably never going to love their style, simply because my own taste tends towards the opposite, but I'd have to be blind not to notice the improvement.
As for P/I, I agree that they need to project more. They have a tendency (like V/M and to an extent W/P) to direct their expression towards one another and not the audience. They invite you in instead of pushing the story out, which I love. I think that works better for V/M and W/P because they have more palpable chemistry than P/I do at this point. I don't think they're bad at it, or that it's necessarily lacking, but that they need to develop it further and become better at balancing it out with some projection. It looked as though they improved in that area this year (it seems like their performance ability is tied in with their confidence level), and I'm hoping that experimenting with different styles will help them develop further in that area.
I'm not sure if you've ever seen P/I skate live, but I personally feel like their routines loose their spark a bit when you see them on video (as is the case for a lot of teams). I found them much more engaging when I first saw them live than I expected to based on how they looked on TV. With certain programs, when they skate well, they have the ability to mesmerize the audience, at least they have a few of the times I've seen them (in particular, this year's FD and last seasons SD at nationals). Then again, that's just me. I'm sure some people watch them and feel the opposite.
I'd just like to thank you, Emdee and The Observer, for engaging with me in a civilized debate. It's refreshing. Often I find that raising an opinion that contradicts someone else's in this forum (but thankfully not this thread) leads to petty, childish squabbles that involve name calling and personal attacks on various posters, and usually end up having nothing to do with actual skating. I'm glad we seem to be able to avoid that silliness here. It's a pleasure discussing with all of you!
I agree on P/I coming across a lot better live, the quality of their skating and movement is something that you have to see in person to truly appreciate. Meanwhile, G/P's deficiencies, particularly in their skating, are a lot more noticeable in person. At nationals this year I felt that the quality of everything P/I did was on another level, they deserved third place by a large margin
Thanks so much for your thoughts skatingfan04 - I agree with you and appreciate the respectful way you have stated your opinions. Alex is like a china doll, just so beautiful and with such lovely arms and shoulders. I think it is a bit unfortunate that they have been compared to Tessa and Scott so often as Alex does have some of Tessa's lovely line and stretch - but isn't that because that is the desired look learned through years of ballet - instead of copying. I do also really like Piper and Paul and thoroughly enjoyed them at Canadians. They can definitely attract new fans to ice dance that want a little more edge and theatre. I will admit I hope you are correct and the ISU powers that be start rewarding the teams and programs with more actual dance. Time will tell!
Yes. All 3 Canadian boys had little issues in their FD - including Poje. Had W&P not had the unison issue in the twizzles, they might have received the extra smidgeon to give them gold!
As for the other 2 teams, G&P did have one more GP event this year than P&I, but they also got on the ice several months late because Paul had a broken ankle in the summer and was in physio. They also missed the opportunity to show their programs to Canadian judges at the High Performance Camp. Piper also had the stress of the citizenship issue hanging over her until just before Christmas.
P&I had their challenges as well. After not being on the podium for the past couple years at Canadians and missing the opportunity to get as many GP events, their confidence was hurt. Now with the opportunity for more events next year, they may get an opportunity to be judged internationally more so than before and taken more seriously by the judges. Lack of GP exposure may indeed have contributed to lower marks in the past.
If P&I had not fallen in the FD at 2013 Nationals, I think they would have been on the podium in 3rd. They would have probably been behind G&P but certainly would have beaten O&W. O&W were decent, but they only snuck onto the podium because W&P were absent and P&I fell.
Speaking of O&W, both they and R&H need to up their technical content next year in the SD. Neither one of them qualified for Worlds this year because they both had TES scores that were too low. While G&P and P&I gained ground internationally this season, O&W and R&H seem to have lost some.
Yes I have seen P/I skate live a few times at Thornhill/Nationals/Skate Canada etc. They are really gorgeous in terms of line but dont have the connection that P&G, W&P and VM have. If you are in the Toronto area you should come to Thornhill. Its nice to see the early programs and watch them take shape at other comps during the year. Nam usually skates there too and young Roman ( my favourite) also Gaby Daleman. I also try and go to the Scarborough skating event whenever possible - I think it was called So you think you can skate. P&G as well as R/H and Brent & McKeen also skate there.
Thanks for your thanks! I am more belligerent in defending territory in the Patrick Chan or VM threads !
I've been a regular at Thornhill for years, actually. I can't wait to enjoy it again!
Me too. Do you want to meet up this year?
Last year luckiest came down from London and I know Corianna will be there too.
I live just ten minutes away so it's a great event for me...
It would be great to see these guys follow Massimo Scali to work with Marina. Training at DSC risks them being held back because W/P will be the number 1 team.
I think the benefits of training with W/P far outweigh the costs. P/I have been very vocal about how training with teams better than them (W/P specifically) has been crucial to their development. I believe that's the main reason they decided to leave Barrie, so that they could be in an environment where there is a competitive atmosphere. With V/M and D/W most likely gone, I don't think they'd have that same push with Zoueva. It's obvious that training at DSC has done them a world of good, and they seem to have a good relationship with Krylova and Carmelengo, as well as the other teams there. P/I aren't at the level of a top 5 team yet, and I think training with world medallists will help them get there. Even more important is the fact that W/P are masters at expression, projection and chemistry, which I think are the areas P/I will be working on the most. Their improvement in that area has already been quite impressive the last couple of seasons. What better way to improve further than to learn from the example of an excellent team like W/P?
Being behind W&P sure beats being behind the Shibutanis. You can be behind W&P and win a world silver potentially in the next few years. You are behind the Shibutanis in your own camp you arent even winning a medal of any kind, when the Shibutanis almost certainly wont be.
When did Massimo Scali change to Canton? Totally missed that one.
Anyway, I think DSC is the right place for P/I. What I like about the Camerlengo/Krylova teams is that they really seem to care about every couple they train and that they are really careful about the music they choose for their couples. For example the music they chose for P/I was perfect for them and I can't wait how they are going to develop with the help of Camerlengo and Krylova.
Besides,IMO, from no on, it will be Shpilband vs. Krylova regarding North-American Ice Dance. I can't imagine Zueva playing a big role in NA Ice Dance unless she steals one of the DSC couples or V/M & D/W decide to come back.
Maybe Zoueva will try to lure W&P or P&I away since they are already nearby. Or perhaps she will try to go for G&P if they continue to move up the standings as well, but they seem to want to stay in Toronto.
Hmm, I'm not sure. W&P seem to have a very close relationship with Krylova&Camerlengo and there are still people who accuse P/I being just V&M clones.(which they are not, IMO) So, I think, she will try to steal one of the American couples,maybe H/D or H/B.
Yes, it could be W&P will also feel, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Things are working well for them now, so why try to upgrade? And Zoueva may not an upgrade for them anyway. Depends on whether they would have as good a coaching relationship or not.
I am not particularly concerned about W&P, who will likely be the #1 Canadian team for awhile. But there are other teams in the K&C stable that will be more direct competition for P&I--Hubbell/Donohue, Hawayek/Baker, Aldridge/Eaton.
I thought A&E would do better at this year's Worlds after their bronze at 4 Continents. Was a bit surprised to see them finish so low. Perhaps it was just because it was their first Worlds. The future for H&D depends on how well they come back from Madi's injury, which is always the case for a team dealing with injuries. H&D are close to P&I and G&P in ability, but A&E seem less likely to rival the Canadian teams since G&P beat them at 4 Continents and both G&P and P&I beat A&E at Worlds.
Anyway, as I said above, I hope the fans of each team will keep the rivalry friendly, just as the skaters are trying to do.
Here's a pic of the 3 Canadian dance teams at the Worlds banquet:
If W&P dont win the World title next year I could see them leaving for Zoueva. They might have changed already if they didnt medal at Worlds. Their biggest worry is having a coach with enough political clout to be on top, since with V&M and D&W retired they are better than anyone else out there today, other than maybe a perfect I&K but that almost never happens. So if they are getting lower marks than any of the other teams their coaches obviously dont have the pull. That they have been beaten so many times by a horrible team like Bobrova & Soloviev who arent fit to shine their skates probably is already an indictaion Camerlengo & Krylova dont have the behind the scenes pull of others. So I could still see a move to Zoueva at some point.
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