Paul and Islam: "No Matter What"

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanfan1818, Oct 29, 2013.

  1. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

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    I thought I/Z were under-scored but did really enjoy P/I free dance.
    I/Z are two totally talented skaters but are not a team yet like P/I.
     
  2. Meg91

    Meg91 New Member

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    Two gorgeous skates! They looked smooth, relaxed, and in the moment. They always look so frustrated in the kiss and cry though, which is so upsetting. Their PCS should be way higher! I also don't understand why they're only getting level 2s on their paso patterns…doesn't make sense to me.

    Their free dance has really grown on me though…I actually preferred it to the world champs C/L's free dance. Is it just me or did all the scores seem way off at this competition?
     
  3. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Yeah, the scoring was kind of bizarre across the board.

    I'm just happy that P/I looked this good here, regardless of the numbers (yes, I realize the whole point of the sport is numbers, but you know what I mean). I was worried about them after the Autumn Classic. I'm a lot less worried now.
     
  4. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    They skated a lot more like the team they are last night, and it made a world of difference for the program. So much more speed, power, and projection. Again they're not actually competing in a sport so here it's whatever about the scores. But I'm glad they delivered.
     
  5. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    They are under marked; their skating skills are better than they're being marked for....however their programs this year are disappointing. I don't like the music choice for the SD. And I'm sorry, but when you're competing against couples who are skating to Mozart and Danse Macabre, the Frank Sinatra type of number/music doesn't cut it. It's not going to go over with Euro judges.
     
  6. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

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    They are underperforming too which explains the marks. And their style could be allright had they chosen to distance themselves more from being V&M 2.0
     
  7. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    One other thing, they are being marked like Canada number 3 now. Losing to G/P at worlds last season and then again at Autumn Classic last month seems to have sealed that fate.

    I feel badly for them. Alex Paul is a FAR stronger skater than Anna Cappelini but they can't even beat them in the FD when the latter had many technical mistakes.

    I think P/I need to go back to a more dramatic/aggressive type of program like they had when they won the junior world silver.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2014
    puglover likes this.
  8. ichiro

    ichiro Member

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    I really like this team and have been rooting for them for the longest time. This season I think their programs are ok and somewhat disappointing (the SD great choreography maybe a tad too subtle in performance). Like MarieM stated could be a combo of things started the season with a 4th place finish and now being knocked down to Canada's number 3 team (possibly lower by cdns...). Now if they could only split time between Pasquale and MarieFrance that would be amazing! Or maybe its time to move to the dark side....Igor, get their levels up along with generic programs.
     
  9. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    I've had to let this sink in. Judging aside..

    While I must say it did look much more promising, more polished than in Barrie , I'm afraid that Rafter will be right about the Euro judges ( I hope not, but I'm really worried ).. I'm still really unhappy with these music choices. There's something too laid back about Sinatra (for me) to help them step up and demand attention. And if I, who like them so much, can be underwhelmed ... then I worry about their reception in general.

    Just as a side note : I think Mitch needs a costume change.They looked like their costumes were from two different stories . Hers is sophisticated , his is not.

    About this FD , am I wrong ? .. I thought this choreography was by Marie France .
     
  10. Tramp

    Tramp Member

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    I understand that Mitchell suffered from a concussion less than two weeks before the ACI in Barrie. Apparently, he missed a week of training leading up to the event, which might explain their level of preparedness so far this season.
     
  11. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Poor Mitch. If that was the case, it certainly explains their FD at the ACI. Struggling with balance is ceratinly not a good way to compete for an ice dancer, especially when he's the one doing the lifting. You could tell at CoC that the programs have been well prepared. After seeing them this weekend, it looks as though Mitch is healthy, but they're probably still not training at 100% if that happened only a few weeks ago.

    Yes, Pratfall, this FD is a Dubreul/Lauzon program. I prefer Carmelengo's choreographic style, since it's more intricate, and especially since P/I are good enough skaters to pull off that intricacy with style. I'll agree this is not the best vehicle they've had, and I understand your feelings on Sinatra as well. That being said, I think the more relaxed style is forcing them to push the performance out more, which is what they needed to do this year. I noticed a lot of attack and 'bigger' skating from them this weekend, which is what they were always looking for more of. Stylistically I think the genre really suits them, but of course that doesn't mean the judges are going to go for it. If they keep pushing the power and performance out as the season progresses, though, that could win the judges. They always seem to value those attributes over intricacy and elegance anyways. I'm just glad the program looks this good right now. I was much more worried about it after the ACI.
     
  12. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Active Member

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    Cappelini & Lanotte beat the current runaway Canadian #1 Weaver & Poje for the world title, so of course even on their worst day they will outpoint the perceived Canadian #3. I expect C&L to sink like a stone in the rankings this year and be about 5th at worlds, but still will be comfortably beating the likes of Paul & Islam.

    Politics asid while I agree Paul is a better skater technically than Anna, Luca is a much better skater in everyway than Mitchell, and Anna is still a better performer and artist than Vanessa.
     
  13. Debrah

    Debrah Well-Known Member

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    What is with all the Mitchell hate? Kwanoverrated - you are talking out of your hat, or you have been asleep at the wheel since Vanessa has not competed with Paul P. for several seasons, his current partner is Piper Gilles... Alex Paul skates with Mitchell and she is a lovely Ice dancer, her positions are always finished, and with her toes pointed!

    I like the Paul/Islam FD, and I don't have a problem with the music choice. That said, Mitchell is likely channeling his inner "romantic leading man" who always seemed to be casually dressed in a sweater over a shirt, a la Gene Kelly/Fred Astaire, Donald O'Connor, and crooning to/dancing with or simply pursuing the gal from the other side of the tracks, in the movies! Or, alternatively the man was dressed in a suit, or a military uniform, or very formally dressed in white tie and tails. So, I do understand why they chose the classic, casual look for him, as it is perhaps less dated than say a uniform or even formal wear, would be to younger skating fans. But, seeing how younger people today probably are not familiar with the great period movie musicals, beyond the hip/hop or step up variety, then yeah, maybe I would change Mitch's costume to be more in sync visually with the elegant, beautifully attired Alex Paul.

    If one wants a crash course in period movie musicals, I suggest anyone under say 40, watch the "That's Dancing" series of movies, its quite the rapid education with hundreds of clips/scenes depicting the really great movie musicals, each segment being introduced by some of the most famous stars of the musical genre.

    To be clear, I really, really love P/I as a team, but even though I feel they have been improving each season and they should be on an upward overall international trajectory, they DO seem to have fallen behind Piper and Paul this season. G/P have really bounced back strongly from his injury and her citizenship issues, they had a memorable FD last year and are currently showcasing probably 2 of the most technically difficult and demanding programs that I have seen in years, that do not belong to either V/M or D/W! I have never been as big a supporter of G/P, as I was of Crone/Poirier, but that is changing since 2014 SCI. When I first saw them and the new programs during the summer skates, I was seriously underwhelmed and quite sure that P/I would have no problem keeping their Cdn #2 ranking. However, having seen both teams compete in the 1st of 2 GP events, I am now thinking that G&P are within striking distance of the world podium with these programs provided they can stay on their feet and really skate them to full potential, so certainly they are taking back their former CDN #2 ranking, and by next year may likely also be challenging W&P, C&B,C&L, and or overtaking current flavors of the month -- the French team of P&C (due in main part to Dubreuils outstanding choreo hiding flaws, and his being the main focus of their programs) and any of the current crop of Russian teams also trying to muscle their way back onto the world podium...

    But back too P/I, after all this is their thread. I absolutely do think P/I are worthy of a top 10 world ranking this season, it just always seems to take them bit longer to get their momentum going, in the past it has been injury, or them just making silly unexpected errors at the most critical point in the competition. Unfortunately, they are now back to being judged against the middle pack of dancers where marks are in the 140-149.99 range. I think they should be in the 148- 155 range though by Worlds, provided they stay on track. IE after the 1st GP with only 2 Russian teams yet to be seen, we have Paul/Islam starting out with 140.46 versus Germans - Z/G - 140.95, and USA- H/B at 142.31 ( but the generously marked Senior B), then Russians - M/K 143.48, S/B - 143.87, and I/K 144.70, or US - H/D at 148.23 and yikes even the downward plunging current world champs -Italy's Anna & Luca! Russia's B&S could be anywhere from 150 -171 depending on health and whether they are still seen as Russian #1. The remaining piece of the puzzle will be the new team of S/K and they could be anywhere from 144- 175 depending on politicking, strength of material and whether they become the new #1, or still in a battle for #2-3, or yikes 4 or 5 depending on how the fed feels about him dumping Elena and throwing away his 3rd in the world status. I expect that Canada's B/M to also be marked in this mid pack range of 140-144, or just a wee bit lower at around 134-139 if they decide to compete as seniors, depending on how they do at Jr GPF, Sr Nationals, and either Jr or Sr worlds, or both, should disaster happen to P/I...I see the 2015 national dance team being comprised of W/P, G/P, then a toss up tween P/I, B/M and P/O for spots 3-5. Seems O/W and E/P have their work cut out for them to make the Sr team. An embarrassment of riches indeed, with a fab bunch of juniors waiting and developing in the wings!

    I love the fact that the majority of CDN teams offer such amazing diversity, each team being so different from one to the other, there is some quality unique to every team with each having different strengths that makes me fall in love with them for different reasons. I love the beauty and emotional intensity of W/P who have strong material this season, taking them out of their comfort zone with no clear storyline to sell or posing breaks just them moving all the time with speed MATCHING the music tempo. I respect the athleticism/quirkiness and musicality of G/P who have 2 awesome and demanding programs this season. I really enjoy, the classical period elegance and subtle grace of P/I, who still have the "it" factor for me personally, and I am willing to wait to see it really gel. Then P/O wow,- my recent discovery from last season who have proven their promise this year in a really "get everyone talking" way, via the chemistry and smoothness they showcase via my favorite FD of this season -yes, I like this FD better than France's P/C one, that's getting all the rave reviews, and pushing them up the ranks faster than speeding bullets. Then there is the technical prowess of B/M and their reallyfab SD, and very cool twizzles. Yep I love dance. Yes in sport one can NOT have ties, but for me personally I can almost always find something to love about most elite dance teams and truly I would have ties in dance!
     
  14. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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  15. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Well, it wasn't their best skate ever, but it was hardly deserving of that score or the ridiculous placement. Their technical base value was 1.5 points lower than Papadakis/Cizeron's and 0.5 lower than Gilles/Poirier. Yet somehow the PCS and GOE's (you know, the scores that are supposed to assess skating skills, technical execution, ect.) have them nearly 10 points behind the leaders, and trailing G/P by a whopping 6.73 points. Completely, utterly ridiculous.

    Edit: OK, so my math stinks. Their base value was 1.0 lower than G/P's, not 0.5 (I thing I read the Italian team's score card by mistake). Still doesn't explain a nearly 7 point discrepancy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
  16. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

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    Or not. They were not there tonight, neither technically nor artistically. Trying too hard. IMO.
     
  17. Marta24

    Marta24 Active Member

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    The good news are that they got a L4 on one of their PD pattern, that`s something not a lot of couples obtained this year. I don`t know why the judges keep underscoring them, even if they are skating well.
     
  18. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, disappointing. Perhaps they need to revamp (or vamp) up their programs this year. I hate to see them have to struggle so hard. I hope the last part of the season is better for them.
     
  19. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    If they want to establish themselves as number 2 in Canada I think they have to bring back the wow factor which they had last year. I felt their SD was absolutely flat. Just saw it today.

    It's sad.
     
  20. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    I agree some of their GOE doesn't make sense. Also their skating skills are way better than they're being given credit for.

    They sure do look dejected coming off the ice and in the K&C.

    I feel for them but heir program/music choices were not good this year. Nothing about either program makes them stand out. They need programs that are much more dynamic, that can be skated more aggressively and powerfully. Also Alexandra, while beautiful, really needs to up the performance factor. Maybe a change to Shpilband with some help from Shae-Lynn Bourne will help them. What Bourne has done for Weaver/Poje is remarkable.
     
  21. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed that Leanna Caron, the HEAD of Skate Canada, was on the judging panel at Bompard. I guess we can safely assume that P/I have been dumped by Skate Canada, politically, in order to push up Gilles and Poirier.
     
  22. Marta24

    Marta24 Active Member

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    I also think that especially the FD music should have been changed after their first competition. I would love to see them do a programme to the Pride&Prejudice soundtrack. There are also fast paced pieces there, where they could show off more speed. This FD music would suit more as an exhibition programme. I don`t know if a coaching change could help them, since Krylova/Camerlengo worked for them in the past. If they change their coach, I surely hope they won`t go to Canton.
     
  23. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    I think that was a sure thing long before this event started. :(

    Today was tough. I'm glad that they got through it without visible error, but they weren't into the performance. I think the disappointment finally got to them this time. I still don't love this FD as a vehicle for them, but the way they performed it at Cup of China really did make me appreciate it more.

    I'm glad they looked mad at the end of it. I think it'll light their fire. The first half of the season may have been tough, but they have a solid two months of training time between now and nationals. There's no reason that they can't make the world team if they skate well there. The season is far from over.
     
  24. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    I read somewhere that Mitch had a concussion and they had little training time before that Autumn Classic event in Barrie. Seems to me like they should have pulled out of that event if that was the case because that terrible performance in the FD there seems to be carrying over (marks-wise/reputation-wise) to the Grand Prix.

    Do they have time between now and Canadians to get a new Free Dance?
     
  25. Marta24

    Marta24 Active Member

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    Kaitlyn and Andrew reworked their 2012/2013 FD completely, because they didn`t get the marks, so I think it is possible. I think, Camerlengo/Krylova are the kind of trainer that want their students to be creative and try different things. I guess that`s why they let Mitch and Alex keep that FD, but I think they should definitely change it. There is no Canadian judge this year on the World`s panel. Kaitlyn and Andrew will probably get all the push from Skate Canada. I don`t believe that this FD will find a lot of supporters under the European judges. :(

    Anyway, Mitch and Alex lost around 3 points because of missed levels and got two deductions because of two long lifts.
     
  26. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

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    The thing is I can't tell who they are as skaters. What do they want? What is the meaning of their program? Who are they? I can't answer any of this, and that is the basic problem here.
    They have good basics, all they need it to find and define who, as ice dancers, they are.
     
    Mayra likes this.
  27. Marta24

    Marta24 Active Member

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    The commentator on French eurosport said that they have the potential to be one of the top couples in ice dance, they only need more power and speed. I wonder if it`s a confidence issue.
     
  28. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    Could be. But they also need better music and programs. Whose idea was it I wonder for them to skate this FD music? D&L? P&I themselves? I watched them today and felt the whole idea of it seemed too juniorish.

    I think they should ditch this program ASAP and get a new one.
     
  29. Marta24

    Marta24 Active Member

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    I wonder why they even went to D&L? Camerlengo seemed to work for them the last two seasons. Last year`s FD was so beautiful and much more challenging than this year`s FD. If you look at the 3 other couples C&K have on the Grand Prix circuit, their programs seem to be much better than Mitch and Alex`s.
     
    Pratfall likes this.
  30. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps they went to D&L because of the success they had with their last D&L choreographed program (Casablanca). However, that idea now seems to be a mistake because D&L are giving the better material to the teams that actually train under them (P&C, H&D, P&O).
     
    Pratfall likes this.