Paul and Islam: "No Matter What"

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanfan1818, Oct 29, 2013.

  1. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    I think the step sequences are the least of their worries. This program and music choice is too junior, too cheesy. I don't think this is the type of program that the ISU judges reward. IMO they need something far more mature and classical than this music/theme.
     
  2. puglover

    puglover Well-Known Member

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    So - maybe this is a silly question but I have tried to watch their free dance but all of the links I try cite copy write issues and I am only able to watch it without the sound, which is kind of pointless and really gives me no idea of anything other then highlighting the errors. Is this a temporary issue or will this be the case all season long with this piece of music?
     
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Club comp. season is here!

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  4. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    The YouTube postings of the "Come Rain or Come Shine" recording itself are also all muted, so I'm afraid that might end up being the case with future events...
     
  5. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Actually they were certainly not VM lite in either program.
     
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  6. canadablue

    canadablue Member

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    Unfortunately, add me to the list of those underwhelmed by the FD. I love how charming it is, and I think there's definitely something workable there, but I worry that it's too open for a team of their capabilities, especially when, as lavenderblue pointed out, close skating is one of their strongest skills. I can only hope they have some strategy going here that we don't see, or that they realize some changes should be made ASAP.

    It was such a rough skate yesterday, it was hard to tell what they were even going for. If they can perform it cleanly, at the level of skating they had last season, and look more comfortable, it might be much improved. If changes are to be made, I think adding to the step sequences, particulary the circular, should be the biggest priority. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with the music or style, only the appearance of simplicity in the content. These are mature love songs, there's no reason why they can't sell it as such. I'm not sure why they called it "jazzy blues", but there's an quality that can be very dance-y if they work with it. Theme matters so very little on paper, and if there are judges who ignore CoP and focus on that, they don't seem to be inclined to rewarding teams like P/I for mature lyrical programs either.

    If I recall, those conversations were mostly about G/P being weaker skaters than P/I, and that (1) P/I having had some rough performances in the past didn't negate that fact and (2) P/I having a tendency of choosing introverted projection combined with not being the greatest at selling it didn't begin to make up for the deficit between the teams per CoP. P/C had an excellent competition here, and clearly deserved the win. That says little about how *P/I* will perform the rest of the season. They made great strides in consistency and looking more comfortable last season. It's disappointing they had such a troubling start, but I think it's more likely than not that this is a step back and they'll now take two steps ahead. That's pretty much been their pattern up until now.
     
  7. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Actually not true other than last year. They made tremendous strides between Thornhill, skate Canada and nationals all of which I saw live. I do hope they do the best they are capable of the rest of the season.

    I won't be seeing them live at all this season so will rely on you to provide commentary of their improvements.
     
  8. Meg91

    Meg91 New Member

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    I just lurk on here mostly but after this week the urge to post has taken over! I gotta say I really liked the short dance and I truly believe it will be something incredible by the end of the season. Unfortunately, I pretty much feel the same way as everyone else about the free dance. Does anyone else find it weird that P/I and G/P are skating to similar styles for the free??

    Anyways, I thought the opening of the program was great and the first lift was pretty incredible. However, I feel like the style of the dance totally changed when The Way You Look Tonight started…the dancing got, dare I say, cheesy and immature IMO. I wonder what feedback they got from the high performance camp about this program. I almost think they would have been better off just having the whole program be Come Rain or Come Shine. Anyways, I'm interested to see what the program will look like at their first grand prix.
     
  9. canadablue

    canadablue Member

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    I should have been more clear, I was referring to the career, not within a season. Fantastic and successful first two seasons together. Terribly inconsistent second senior season when they were hampered by injury - even then parts of their skating improved, even though the whole was a mess. Great progress over their fall season in 2012, terrible 2013 Nats. Showed up with strong programs at Thornhill in 2014 and took the lead in the SD in Nebelhorn. You can rate their skates last quad and plot it on a graph, and it would look like a roller coaster, but each time the high happened, they were a better, stronger, improved team. Last season, they finally added consistency to the mix. Gone were the catastrophic errors, and freezing up and everything collapsing when they had bobbles. Still, being at Sochi - when they had never even been to a Worlds yet - seemed to spook them, and they didn't have their best skates. At Worlds, they once again gave great performances. Overall, though the season varied, they were hanging out on their upper end. Their SD looked incredible Wednesay, except for a bobble on a very complex lift, with an explanation that the skirt was brand new. Yesterday, for some reason, they hit a true low after a long time without one, and it was among the lowest of all the lows they've been through. I don't know why. History suggests it's not permanent. And last season suggests that it doesn't have to keep happening.

    Oh, please. What, you won't have access to a TV or computer all season? What a shame. Seeing skating live is, of course, always a joy and an advantage to get the clearest picture possible of how a team is doing. I would like to have that opportunity this season, but I won't. But there was no question from video that P/I improved last season. When things are obvious, video does just fine. You don't think the overall difference between G/P and P/I is obvious, so if P/I improve and you can't see it, surely nothing I happen to say will make it obvious to you. You are welcome to disagree about it, and even come into P/I's fan thread and disagree. Where we have clashed in the past is you make claims that you don't back up, and then pretend that discussing P/I and their competitors in detail - in a thread about P/I - is OTT.

    ----

    Welcome, Meg91. I really like the first lift too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014
  10. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Canadablue you certainly get all personal.....I did not bring GP into the PI board yesterday so why are you so sensitive? Methinks you do protest too much! Regardless how you or I feel both teams will progress at their will and I wish them well.

    Anyway as it so happens we are ardent travellers intent on completing our bucket list so I find that we are away during some of the GP series and certainly for the Nats which I would have definitely attended. When travelling it's not always easy to get wifi and even when you do there can be problems. Last year I watched both VM and Patrick with no sound when they were at the Bompard!
     
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  11. canadablue

    canadablue Member

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    You have several times in the past. I would never go into the G/P thread to praise P/I while criticizing them, so I find your pattern of doing so here a bit odd. You pretended (or misremembered) that the discussion where people disagreed with you strongly was mostly about P/I and their tendency to freeze up, so that's why I brought them up again because saying people "shot you down" over that topic seemed a little sensitive to me. Look, it's not personal for my part. I get direct because you dodge actually explaining the assertions you make and act surprised that someone might expect you do that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014
  12. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    With there amazing lines classical could suite them.
    I like second team from Spain FD, this could be good for PI.
     
  13. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Maybe and I wouldn't jibe about your ability or inability to watch performances on TV or wherever. We are different people with different approaches to life and skating. Let us leave it at that.

    As I said I will not be watching them for the rest of the season except perhaps worlds and will appreciate your comments on their progression over the months ahead.
     
  14. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that the style of the dance changed in the second half and at least them rubbing their noses against each other's is one move that should definitely go; it's not cute, it's comical. But I couldn't take my eyes off Alexandra throughout the whole dance. She's a stunningly gorgeous young lady with exquisite line and finesse, just amazing to see.

    On a side note, the FDs of Papadakis/Cizeron, Beaudry/Sorensen and the second Spanish team all looked the same to me. Flowing, packed with transitions but none of them really commanded my attention and I can't remember any particular move. Beaudry/Sorensen had my favorite SD at Autumn Classic and I wish Tessa and Scott skated to that choreo. Had never watched Beaudry/Sorensen before and they were a beautiful surprise.

    Can Christopher Dean ever choreograph a program for ice dancing without having himself and Jayne in the back of his mind? Moves, cape and music. lol
     
    clarie likes this.
  15. bumblebeevich

    bumblebeevich Member

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    Sad they lost to Gilles & Poirier instead. The problem is the stronger skater in G&P is stronger than the stronger in P&I. From strongest skater to poorest of the 4 it goes: Paul Poirier > Alexandra Paul > Piper Gilles >>> Mithcell Islam. So while Alexandra is a very good skater she is still inferior to Paul, and Mitchell is by far weaker than Piper. Alexandra is a slightly better female skater than Piper, but Mitchell is light years inferior to Paul. So very hard for P&I to win other than by relying on superior chemistry, choreography, and teammate.
     
  16. puglover

    puglover Well-Known Member

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    It does seem like this would be a good year to try something outside your comfort zone or expected of you - perhaps for all teams, as the Olympics are so far away, why not take a chance on something different and show some diversity. The last few years, I have really wondered how much the judges marks are an indication of their feelings about the programs as they seem to have to keep so much in mind keeping track of everything else, maybe they are not as focused on the overall concept as we are.
     
  17. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree that Mitch is inferior to Piper. I think he doesn't project enough so while he has lovely lines as well he fades into the woodwork. I agree that Paul is the strongest of the 4. I think P and I have to sell their programs more.
    IN skating like in life the packaging tends to win!
     
  18. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    So I have to admit that after getting past the initial surprise, and having had the chance to watch the free dance a few more times more carefully, I actually think there is a lot that's good here -- it's mostly obscured by a far shakier performance than usual (not just referring to the errors -- their demeanor was just more rattled, from the outset, than it's come across since some of the 2011-12 skates).

    I do think the circular needs some work, in part because the low level might indicate that it's honestly too simple. I'm also a little unsure about the timing of the first two lifts, but it's impossible to say right now if it's program construction or them. But I almost feel like an idea behind this program might be to showcase their capacity for danciness and unison outside of hold, that they can together and individually pick up the rhythm, and skate together even when not physically linked. There are already glimmers of it like in the twizzles, the little "Never ever change" footwork moment at 3:34-3:36, Alex's finger-snapping at 2:27, and moments that could also be expected to shine in most performances, like the opportunities for extension during the midline. The transitions in general seem intended to highlight one or both of these qualities.

    I'm now quite curious to see how things are looking in a few weeks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2014
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  19. puglover

    puglover Well-Known Member

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    It must be so disappointing for any team to start out a new season and even a new Olympic cycle and not show your new material at it's best, and at home at that. The season is long and there is lots of time to clean things up and with retirements, switching partners and teams sitting the season out - there are certainly some openings nearer the top. They have a good team of specialists behind them. Go Alex and Mitch!
     
    clarie likes this.
  20. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Well, Cup of China is just around the corner now. :biggrinbo

    I'm very excited to see their SD again. I keep noticing different aspects of the choreography that are really beautifully set up to match the inflections of the music. Also, I'm really likings Mitch's arms and carriage throughout this program. He's a small guy, and he lacks the strong body type that is naturally associated with the Paso, but he makes up for a lot of that with fluid arms and an openness through his chest and arms that impresses me. I like it. I think it's a step in the right direction for them.

    As I'm sure you've all surmised, I'm not impressed with the FD. I still think it's too open for them, and it's taken too much of what they're good at (tight close turns in hold, smooth and intricate transitions, etc.) out of the construction of the program. That being said, I can see how a program like this may be designed to force them to skate 'bigger,' to really push their performances out there. I think that may have been the intention here. Constructing a program so different from their usual (especially considering that the SD is at their usual level of intricacy) must have been a deliberate choice from them and their coaches. Looking at the performance from the Autumn Classic, it looks like the program fell apart and they started missing things. I suspect that there's probably more intricacy in the footwork sequences than what they showed that day. The rest of their levels were the highest possible, so the concern in terms of their technical scores was the two footwork sequences. If they can beef those up, execute them properly, and get up to their usual L3, there's no reason their numbers can't approach what they've had in past FD's. The watering down of the transitions takes away from the level of enjoyment that I get watching the program, but if we're being honest, P/I weren't really benefiting from their intricate transitions on their score cards. They should have been, but they never were. I think the competitions so far this season have made it clear that the PCS will once again not be scored according to the rulebook, so watered down transitions probably won't hurt their scores all that much. I really want to see this FD skated cleanly, because I think the style actually suits them really well. If they can sell it and really skate with the attack that we saw them beginning to demonstrate last season, I think it might work well for them. No, it's not at their usual level, but if it forces them to grow as performers, the sacrifice of that this season might be worth the benefit their skating will gain in the long run. I'm excited to see what it looks like at CoC.
     
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  21. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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  22. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    kwanfan1818 and clarie like this.
  23. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    And they're also doing the December 5 show in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan!

    I'm so thrilled they're finally getting another show opportunity and as part of such a spectacular cast. This should be fun.
     
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  24. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    So, what do we all think?

    I thought they looked quite wonderful, TBH. It was smooth and precise and clean, and their expressions were spot on. Lots of speed and beautiful unison. They're still not as extroverted as some teams, but it looked genuine rather than over the top, which I really appreciate. As per usual, the scores and placement leave me confused.
     
  25. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    What can I say ? Stunned. Bummed. Depressed.

    I was watching British Eurosport and they also were shocked when P/I were not placed above I/Z. I thought I/Z were clearly over marked after their skate, so I expected the difference to be slight, but with P/I ahead.

    ( I/Z are both excellent skaters, but it's simply not "there" yet.. )

    Now , I'm trying to have my morning coffee and peruse P/I's protocols .. but at first glance , understanding is eluding me.

    ETA: skatingfan04 ..I agree with your assessment of their performance.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2014
  26. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Yeah, that's about where I am. Even if they did truly deserve to drop all of those levels (which honestly looked a bit suspect, but I'm no technical specialist), there is no way to explain the PCS. Or the GOE's. AT ALL.

    Have you seen the British Eurosport version of the program? The commentators were about as confused as we are.
     
  27. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    Yes, I stayed up to watch British Eurosport live. Now, even allowing for Hanretty being a little unused to commentating, and Nicky having to prod him to commit to an opinion at first. They both clearly said that they expected P/I to be ahead.. and while Hanretty has to get used to talking ( and says he's a fan of Elena) , he knows what he's looking at on the ice and has been competing recently enough to have been paying attention to the CoP rules..so,*sigh*...

    I was chuffed when they said that P/I could be Canada's next great team... and afterward had to think ruefully , Yes and this is not the only case of overblown hype they'll have to deal with. .. At least, new partnership issues aside, I/Z are two really talented skaters.

    So now, I'm steeling myself to watch again. The FD comes on at 11pm my time.

    I hope I have a brandy in the house (left over from last Christmas.)
     
  28. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    It was really a lovely skate, and there's improvement already from Autumn Classic. On the ice, that is, because the scores themselves remain idiotic, but they did their jobs. I just hope for a great follow-up in the free dance now.
     
  29. Jeanne7

    Jeanne7 Active Member

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    IA - their program was beautiful & well skated. I also thought I/Z were overscored. They were fast, yes, but sloppy, over the top, lacked unison. Not sure why P/I don't receive higher scores.
     
  30. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Boy, that FD leaves quite a different impression when skated properly, doesn't it? :)

    Shame about the scores (I suspect several technical things went awry there), but considering how they looked a couple weeks back at the ACI, this is a massive improvement. The program had a lot more life this time around. I think it might turn out to be quite a lovely vehicle for them if they can clean up the tech side of things. It's certainly forcing them to reach new levels of projection and power, which I suspect was the strategy behind this program all along. Despite the low finish, I must say this competition has left me feeling more optimistic about the rest of their season.