Patrick Chan's Score, Second by Second

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by jettasian, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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  2. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    No, not even by a long-shot. Abbott, Fernandez, and Takahashi are all well-known for balanced programs (as your link points out). In skating, it's harder to do elements in the second-half of the free skate. That's why there are bonus points awarded for jumps past the two minute mark. You'll see that Abbott, Fernandez, and especially Takahashi do more elements past that point. Those would be indicators of a well-balanced, while technically more difficult program (in the sense of placement of elements).

    You're not looking for a 50/50 split--you're looking for programs that don't front-end jumping passes (something Plushenko is known for doing). To be fair, all the skaters who perform quads do them at the beginning of their programs while their legs are still fresh. But you hope to see an equal if not greater number of jumping passes in the second half of the program (all of which you see in Abbott, Fernandez, and Takahashi).

    There are many things to praise Chan on, but saying he's the only one with balance in his free skate wouldn't be one of them.
     
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  3. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    I would add Hanyu to the above list mentioned (Abbott, Fernandez, and for god's sake, Takahashi!)
     
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Agalis, You are forgetting that jettasian is a Chan worshipper who does not think there is another skater in the world that can do anything better than Chan - anything at all. Logic may not work here.

    For the quads you are absolutely right. A quad really needs fresh legs. IIRC Lambiel was one of the few (and I think a Chinese skater whose name I forget, was another one, plus Tim Goebel in the old days) who did a second quad deep into his LP. May be Joubert too? I am not sure.
     
  5. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    The facts are there. Well balanced means 50 front, 50 back, or close to that, not front loaded or back loaded. Yes, keeping the jumps at the last half is more difficult, so there's to earn bonus marks but that's back loaded program. Chan's choreo has all the elements perfectly placed to even out from start to finish. That's the genius in his long program.
     
  6. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    LOL. First of all, I simply provided the fact that's out there. I did NOT make anything up. Speak about logic, it's more like some people just refuse to see facts despite it's there. When it's straight, they still believe it's crooked. :rolleyes:
     
  7. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    From YOUR link:

    Abbott: 48-52
    Fernandez: 46-54

    If that doesn't qualify as close to 50-50, you're in denial.

    I should also say your link looked at scores with GOE added in. But that actually skews the result for Chan, because if you look at just the value of the elements themselves (which would mean how the elements are choreographed in the program), that results in a 49-51 split for Chan. Which is a whopping 1% difference from Abbott. It just so happens that at 4C's where Chan's number is taken from, he overperformed in the first half of his program and underperformed in the second half (meaning his higher GOE on elements in the first half outweighed his GOE in the second half, making it look like there was a 50/50 split in element value when in fact there wasn't).

    So no, Chan does not an exclusive on well-balanced programs. The numbers don't lie ;).
     
  8. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    :rofl: So if everyone does a "trademark Chan lunge", they get higher scores in performance, :lol:!

    Love these writers!
     
  9. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Okay- I actually quite enjoy Chan, but that cracks me up. Pre-pre skaters do these 'deep knee lunges'. I've never ever thought of it as a Chan trademark. Does he really always do one?


    The explanation of the loop is particularly terrible. "Similar to the toe loop but without the toe assisted take off". Some writer clearly knows nothing about jumps. The loops is SO different from the toe loop, even if they both take off with the skating leg at the back outside edge.
     
  10. ponta1

    ponta1 Active Member

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    Wow, some people have a lot of time on their hands! Nice layout of the chart, though.
     
  11. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    I realize this is shooting fish in a barrel, but one more thing.

    Chan's split at the GPF was: 45-55. If we use the article's method of adding in GOE, Chan's split now becomes 42-58--pretty close to Takahashi's backended number.

    Abbott's split at the GPF was 48-52. IOW, more balanced than Chan.

    But the obvious fallacy in all this is the scores don't reflect what was actually *planned* in the program--only what was performed. So a 1A may not have been planned in the first half, but it's listed under required elements anyway because the skater popped his 3A attempt. So this doesn't have anything to do with actual choreography since you'd have to look at what the elements that were planned for, not what was actually performed.

    Anyhow, this is all rather basic and intuitive I think for most folk.
     
  12. BreakfastClub

    BreakfastClub Active Member

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    :yikes:

    Mike. Pike. Memories. Evoked.

    Must run!!!!!

    :scream:

    (Chan is a great skater, but this analysis is ridiculous and could be applied to any of the top men and manipulated to make them look as good or even better. :slinkaway)
     
  13. jl

    jl Well-Known Member

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    I love Chan's skating and I have to :rofl: at this.

    And I love how a subjective statement is apparently a "fact".

    But, if this kind of hyperbole attracts some kind of attention to FS, maybe it's all for the best overall... :shuffle:
     
  14. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    I'm not sure I would denigrate the Toronto Star. Do you watch Mad Men? It's rather like Don Draper saying Lucky Strikes are toasted. The marketing, PR, and handling of Patrick Chan has been, IMO, near-masterful over the past 3 or 4 years, with the obvious China glitch. The chart, which took some expert consult, will be ridiculed on FSU but I think it's an effective counter to the many who are belatedly writing Chan is over scored. Guess we'll see in Nice.
     
  15. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    The only people who would have an opinion about Chan's scores one way or another are skating aficionados. And it's exactly those people who can see the 1000 holes in that chart.

    Personally I don't know why people make such arguments because they are a bit ridiculous and easy to critique. The better argument is Chan has strong skating skills and multiple quads in his programs. I can't imagine many would disagree with that.
     
  16. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    I respect your knowledge and I'm going to respectfully disagree here. Fact is, and you can see it at events even outside Canada, something of a mystique has enveloped Chan's skating, and it didn't get there IMO strictly from skating people noticing his superior edges, speed and multiple quads.
     
  17. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'll have to take your word on the mystique thing. But if that's so, then who is writing Chan is overscored? Wouldn't it be people in the know (more or less)? If you're saying many who aren't aficionados are taken in by Chan's skating mystique, why would they be writing Chan is overscored? If the people writing such pieces are in fact in-the-know (more or less), I just don't see how that chart would sway them.


    :shrug:
     
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Stojko.

    The front vs. back-loading on the elements doesn't take into consideration the difficulty of the entrances or exits for jumps or the transitions between elements: the difficulty of the footwork, changes of direction and placement, or how close the elements are to each other, like footwork going directly into a spin.
     
  19. BreakfastClub

    BreakfastClub Active Member

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    Something of a mystique envelopes all Canadian skaters... from Barbara Ann Scott to the mythical brilliance of Barb Underhill's back outside death spiral (my god her bob grazes the ice she leans back like no other woman in the world!! ) to the QUAD MASTER ELVIS IN DA HOUSE. w00t. :rofl:

    The Canadian press/PR machine is how it always gets there. :rolleyes:

    The only one so truly brilliant that they really deserved the OTT accolades was Browning. Too bad when he imploded in competition it actually affected his placement. :p
     
  20. BreakfastClub

    BreakfastClub Active Member

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    I'd like to see a detailed analysis of Dai vs. Chan on that! ;)
     
  21. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Could you do it yourself?

    I'd give it a try -- any particular performances I should look at?
     
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  22. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Jumps and where they are placed do not alone fulfill the requirements for a well balanced program. The link below describes what critieria have to be met for a program to be determined to be well balanced or just plain balanced.

    http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/wellsngl.htm
     
  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    One issue raised was the difficulty of back-loading the jumps. Difficult <> Well-balanced.

    Well-balanced in terms of the elements is only one part of well-balanced. Well-balanced, as well as relative difficulty are included in the following components:

    Skating skills:
    &#8226; Mastery of multi directional skating
    &#8226; Mastery of one foot skating

    Transitions:
    &#8226; Variety
    &#8226; Intricacy

    Performance/Execution:
    &#8226; Variety and contrast

    Choreography:
    &#8226; Proportion (equal weight of parts)
    &#8226; Pattern and ice coverage

    I couldn't, for one thing, because I don't recognize all of the edge changes and the relative difficulty of the edge changes on the elements that follow.

    Maybe "Blues for Klook" vs. "Aranjuez", GPF?

    I think that there should be a PCS equivalent of the technical panel that gives a level for choreography, a level for transitions, and a level for concept -- although, I'm starting to think a level for choreographic difficulty and a level for choreographic balance might be needed -- and that the judges should judge the quality of the skating basics (not just skating skills, but including carriage, toe point, turnout, stretch, etc.), how well the program was skated, and how well the choreography was interpreted.

    So many of the PCS bullet points are for content, anyway, regardless of how the skater performs from one event to another. I'd like to see experts focused on the content and leveling it, while the judges focus on quality.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2012
  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I've done enough research to know that numbers can be twisted in all sorts of interesting ways, depending on what you're trying to show ;)

    Yes, Joubert too - when he did the three-quad LP the final one was after the halfway mark; I remember it was mentioned in the broadcast. I don't think he's tried that since.
     
  25. leesaleesa

    leesaleesa Active Member

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    Heh. Patrick+Lunge=Plunge? P-Lunge? I called it first!

    Abbott for one is just as balanced as Chan, and I dare say if they skated their programs 100% as intended that Abbott would have the edge. Chan is more consistent, however.
     
  26. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    In denial of what? The scale's still not going to balance, will it? Who's in denial here? :lol:

    The article DID indicate by using each skater's highest score. You can go ahead and challenge the article all I care. Hey, why not make up something else to make Chan's LP off balance, that'd be even better, wouldn't it?

    Yup, numbers don't lie only some like to believe it.
     
  27. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    The format of the calculation is designed for a perfect skated LP. Since NOBODY has or will skate a perfect LP, it used the skaters' best scores. I see some people are now plotting every calculation to make sure what's presented in front of them is wrong wrong wrong :lol:
     
  28. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Only because many Chan haters are here, and of course, they will like to discredit everything that's Chan related. But I'm glad people like Browning, Cranston, Boitano and Orser see something some FSU people don't. Who's more credibility here, those great skaters or the people on this board? :lol:
     
  29. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and tell you some of the people commenting in this thread are extremely knowledgeable on COP, and are trying to explain to you the inaccuracies in the chart.

    Obviously you can choose to listen or not, but I really wouldn't dismiss the posts here. If you can't understand the judging criteria sheet that Iceman was kind enough to post, then ask for clarification. I particularly encourage you to listen to what gkelly is saying as she is one of the most knowledgeable posters on COP at FSU. Kwanfan1818 is also quite informed.

    If all you want is to be a mindless uber, that's certainly your prerogative. But virtually everyone in this thread likes and appreciates Chan's skating a lot. It's just people are knowledgeable enough to know the chart you posted is wanting in terms of accuracy and relevance.
     
  30. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    If you could also add in an analysis of Abbott with Chan and Dai, I would very much enjoy reading that (again, using GP Final).



    :)