Patrick Chan- why doesnt he get the respect he deserves

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by chanunderrated, May 1, 2013.

  1. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    So Chan fans need to be told not to state their own opinions on Chan in any threads other than in Chan fan thread?:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  2. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    That is a ridiculous interpretation of what I wrote. What I did suggest is some fans need to understand that not all others will share their opinions - or, if they cannot accept that, to limit their interactions on the subject to like-minded individuals.
     
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I think that Chan's very loyal and devoted fans actually outnumber the vocal detractors. And some of the more obsessed Chan fans have been overly defensive and aggressive which has tended to be off-putting as well. I believe many skating fans have bent over backward to try and be fair in their comments, and when Chan skates well I have seen many favorable comments and kudos. Thanks to the more well-balanced views of calmer Chan fans, I believe many of us realize that Chan has actually been boxed into a no-win situation not of his making. It's unfortunate that the huge spotlight surrounding him has led to him saying things that have added to the critical disregard.

    With the increase of Chan's wins with mistakes, especially since the last two Worlds, there indeed has been an increase in vocal criticism of Chan on FSU, but it still does not outnumber the support and regard by his strong fan base on FSU.
     
  4. Dilng

    Dilng Well-Known Member

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    :respec:
     
  5. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Same goes to any other skater fans. Why should only Chan fans be told this over and over?:confused: I realized that there was one or two over the top Chan ubers. But those Chan ubers haven't posted on FSU for a long long time.
     
  6. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ But honestly, Chan wins the prize for the most loyal, adoring, and feistily defensive-minded fans ever (perhaps Yu Na comes close as well, but still Chan surpasses). What other skaters have fans who fancy themselves as a gang?
     
  7. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    :lol: You need to read more carefully

    To go back to the title of the thread: I think overall Chan does get the respect he deserves. Let's not forget that anti-Chan are a minority of those really passionate about figure skating, who themselves are a minority of the people watching figure skating. The general public who only watches on occasion will respect him, if anything, for the number of titles and medals he's won which clearly reflect that he has been, in terms of results, the skater who has dominated head and shoulders this Olympic cycle, regardless of the result at Sochi or even during the next season as a whole

    A lot of people, both casual viewers and fans of the sport, will also respect him for the intrinsic quality of his skating which cannot be denied, regardless of their allegiance to this or that other skater (I certainly place myself in this category). A lot of people also, of course, respect him because they simply love what he does on the ice.

    What I also have a lot of respect for, is the fact that he took the risk of going for a possibly risky choice of coach and deliberately set out to work on his artistry and went much more difficult, interesting choreographies this season, at least with his SP which is a marvel of finesse by Buttle, and which Chan definitely does justice with his skating. And he is in my view, even if sometimes faillible, a great competitor overall - figure skating is a sport and this matters greatly

    However, even if I respect Patrick on a lot of levels, that doesn't mean that we all have to love, or even respect, everything he does or say, and I think that's the concept some ubers have difficulties with. I don't regard all of his victories as such: his 2012 and 2013 World titles will remain tainted in my eyes because I don't feel the marks received reflected what we saw on the ice, especially in the latter occasion compared to Denis Ten (in 2012 Takahashi made a crucial mistake in his SP which would have made a win difficult anyway, although he was also quite clearly fleeced in PCs in both SP and FS while Chan was overmarked....): this in itself does not diminish the respect I have towards Patrick Chan directly, because it is the judges, not himself, who are at fault here (and in a few others as well, although that did not necessarily affect the placement in the end). But it does mean I cannot regard both those world titles as fully deserved and, like others have pointed out, I see both Takahashi and Ten as "moral winners" in these instances

    Also, while I recognize the qualities of Patrick Chan's skating on an technical level, his skating just does not speak to my soul. Both because his style simply does not particularily appeal to me and because I don't feel Chan is able, at least not yet, to pour some of himself into the interpretation of his music, although he came a little closer to that with his SP this season. This is something that, as a former performer myself, I hold in highest esteem, which means I will always respect those able to do that, on occasion, or in much rarer cases on a regular basis, more.

    Where I think he sometimes deservedly loses a little of that respect is over some of the declarations he makes. And please don't give me the "he is refreshingly honest" excuse: I love people who speak their mind, and I am hardly annoyed by every little thing he says. But there are times when he is downright lacking respect towards his competitors and/ or the competitions themselves, his declarations about WTT recently the most recent example of it, and that's a line he just shouldn't cross, unless he mastered self-depreciating humor to balance things out but that's not exactly the case either

    It's a shame because, based on his interractions with other skaters when we see backstage images or gala practice, he seems to go along well with a lot of them so, while I don't know him, that conforts me in my idea that he must be a pretty nice guy. But I don't know him so I can only really go on what he says and based solely on that, he does come across as a bit of a spoiled brat which can only get him so far in terms of due respect

    All this verbiage is of course a personal view and/ or understanding, but I still put it out there because I know some of these points are actually shared by others. I also hope it will help allievate some of the worries some Chan fans seem to have that people who criticize Chan just love to hate him: I think you'll find that you can respect someone up to a certain point but just not subscribe to everything he says/ does, or even actively dislike some of the things that that person does or says
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
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  8. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Chan does have devoted fans who idolize him no matter what he does on the ice or says off the ice. But the one group that haven't warmed up to Patrick are corporate sponsors. He wouldn't have the financial difficulties he complains of if he were more circumspect when it comes to what he says to the press. He isn't getting sponsorships or endorsements because his habit of venting to the press make him something of a loose cannon, and a controversial sports figure is not appealing from a corporate point of view.

    Chan is his own worst enemy when it comes to being financially solvent.
     
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  9. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    True. I should. Thanks!

    But this time, I did. Still I will say the samething. It actually takes a bit of history to say the samething.;)
     
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Ah, impasse I suppose.

    rayhaneh volubly and in a very unbiased way shares thoughtful viewpoints, yet still you are moved to "say the samething..."
     
  11. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    To answer the question of the thread in a very forward manner......

    Chan does not get the level of respect expected for him because as a World Champion and Canadian Champion, his performances on the ice are forgettable and his off-ice remarks do not command respect from sports writers, fans or fellow competitors.

    "Hot mess" can be used to describe his programs with many falls and errors and "hot mess" can be used to describe his published interviews.

    Far too often, Chan is a hot mess. This is why he does not get the expected level of "respect."
     
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Basically, one side thinks that Chan is victimized by people who for one reason or another (fans of other skaters, bitter about his wins, not liking his off-ice persona, don't appreciate his abilities, Canadian animosity, etc.) and is under constant attack. Another side thinks that Chan fans are just blind worshippers who aren't objective enough in their fandom to understand why he's being criticized.

    Then there are most people in the middle who do agree about the merits of his skating but don't agree on the level that it's being awarded when he's not executing his programs cleanly.

    People like skaters for various reasons. Some take the whole package, some like musicality and performance, others don't think performance is nearly as important as pure skating skills, others think he is musical, others don't, etc. I think it's foolish to tell people they are wrong for liking someone based subjective matters and preferences. It's one thing to argue about whether Chan has great skating skills, it's another to say you're wrong for not liking him because you don't appreciate those skills enough.
     
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, but you forgot to mention the no-less adoring, yet often more reasonable, calm and politely considerate Chan fans of which there are a few -- despite usually being overshadowed by OTT ubers and some of his detractors.

    Definitely, it seems that the OTT, overly defensive Chan fans as well as the entrenched over-scoring by ISU judges (in addition to Patrick's unhappy comments which demonstrate his lack of self-awareness and self-responsibility) have led to more fans being vocally critical re the way Chan often wins with error-strewn programs.

    In regard to Patrick, to each their own. And now, why not let's listen and learn from athletes who truly have something to teach us all. Patrick and other skaters could learn so much from listening to this Aspen Institute-sponsored panel discussion with Michelle Kwan, two former Olympic swimming champions, and two remarkable paralympic athletes. The conversation was presented to young athletes and aspiring Olympic hopefuls in Roaring Fork Valley, Colorado.

    Some very wise, positive and inspiring words from all of the panelists!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fWD8wE0BFs
     
  14. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

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    Ok well at least we now know which name Patrick's mom posts under...
     
  15. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    I think some of the Chan fans are also interpreting that because some of us don't like his public persona, it affects how we see his skating (I saw my own post interpreted in this way). The person who started this thread wanted know why Chan doesn't get the respect he deserves. That is not just about his skating skills. Personally, I think he has tremendous skating skills and movement and just needs to fix those jump problems. I generally enjoy watching him skate, although I take issue with how is scored with all those falls (and I realize he doesn't have control over his scores). But his overall persona and his attitude plays into how people do or do not "respect" him. And his persona frankly has a lot of negatives, and I think its hurting him in the public eye and with an ability to gain endorsements and other support he could badly use. I can respect his skating and I do, but I don't respect his attitude. Same way I can believe Tonya Harding was an amazing skater and also a criminal who deserved to be banned from the sport.
     
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  16. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    I don't believe this to be true, but I believe it's become so entrenched that it might as well be.

    In general, the reasons that Chan isn't popular are

    a) He favours the technical over the artistic
    b) He's the apotheosis of a controversial system that many feel has robbed the sport of it's beauty
    c) The difference between his dominance (in terms of victories) and successful skates is startling
     
  17. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    So Chan-fans are fancying themselves as a gang while non-Chan-fans are ganging up.:yikes::slinkaway

    One at a time.:p I'm still studying your thesis.;) Here is the result of this study:D:

    What is the measure of "the best man"? Is this "the best man" subjective? That's where I'm still not getting it. In 2011 World, Chan skated with no falls. But many say Kozuka should have won. I'm sure the judges, even in 2012 and 2013 worlds, believed that they had given the best marks to whom they thought was the best man.:COP:
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  18. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Chan is a 3 time world champion, well loved by the judges and always gets high PCS no matter you agree or not. And he has a huge fan base, quite some are very devoted, on what planet he's underrated? Unless someone is expecting too much.
     
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  19. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Abbott is totally capable of doing intricate choreography. When he does it, he does it nicer than Chan because Abbott has much better carriage and emotions connecting to the music. Those are important qualities of Performance/Execution. As for skating skills, Chan has great speed, but speed is not the norm for skating skills, but the variation of speed is, same thing under 6.0. There are often some slow part in Abbott's programs, but he speeds up in a split second when needed. Luckily for Chan, he's the kind of person even if you give him Hanyu's jump he will screw it up.
     
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  20. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    Some Chan fans cannot stand the slightest criticism of him. Clearly their definition of respect is "never say anything negative about Chan, no matter what the situation".
     
  21. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    Yuna was the opposite.
    when Yuna receive the her major titles, she always received a standing ovation, had clean programs and overwhelming won. Even anybody can not start complaining. isn't it? ;)
     
  22. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    He doesnt get respect because people dont understand this system. Whether he falls or not he still has the best skating skills in the world and people dont like when he is rewarded for that. Also he can be a douche
     
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I think Proustable put it better:
    The issue with Chan is not that skating fans do not understand the system; many people do understand it, but disagree with what it emphasizes and rewards. Since Chan is the poster boy for how to win under the IJS, he gets the most criticism. Similar comments are sometimes made about other skaters whose skating is a good fit for the current system and who have been very successful, such as Kostner (who is also often accused of doing well while skating not so well), Savchenko/Szolkowy and Davis/White. Because these skaters have had fewer high-profile controversial wins than Chan, and because they have not made the sort of comments Chan has made over the years, the criticism is perhaps milder and less frequent - but it is definitely there.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  24. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    I can understand people not liking Chan for some of the stupid comments he has made over the years. I agree that Patrick can be very self-centered, arrogant and stubborn. But people criticizing his results is stupid. He is clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters and he is reward the higher points, what is wrong with that. Yes he falls ( the same as kostner ) but their vastly greater skills place their components high enough to allow them to make a few mistakes and still be placed high.

    Dont show him respect because of his comments sure. But dont show no respect because of his results
     
  25. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I guess people don't understand how his skating is so superior that he has like a 3-4 fall cushion over other skaters who may not have as great of skating skill as Chan, but they aren't deficient in that department either. At least, some people don't understand why people are ok with such a scoring system, even if they do understand why he has that cushion.
     
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  26. munow

    munow New Member

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  27. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    His skating skills are outstanding, and I don't think you'll find many people who will deny that. But skating skills only account for one out of 5 PCs. The fact that he has superior skating skills should not automatically translate into superiority in every PC category, as we have often seen in recent years, and thus skating skills themselves should not be enough to make up for several glaring mistakes in a program. I find it a shame (and that comment extends way beyond the case of Patrick Chan) that judges often seem incapable to differenciate between the different sets of skills judged, but instead prefer to keep the marks in the same ballpark for all the PCs (although there have been, of course, welcome exceptions to that)

    To give you an example, at Worlds 2012: in both SP and FS, to my eyes, only the SS mark was fairly accurately marked. Chan deserved superior SS and transitions to Takahashi, albeit by a smaller margin. On the other hand, Takahashi was vastly superior in execution/ performance, choreography and interpretation (and no, these are not purely subjective assessments, there are criteria, tangible elements to look for when assessing those marks). The same is true, by the way, of Jeremy Abbott, who should have been given at least CH and IN in about the same range as Takahashi and at any rate, way above those of Chan (while SS and transitions should have been lower to the other two)

    This differs of course from one competition to the next, as Chan deservedly got the best CH for his SP this season, for instance

    Also, yes, Chan is superior, but the comment that he is "clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters" may have been true in 2011; I think you will find that this is less so nowadays as several athletes are actively closing the gap (and I'd argue is equalled in some respects) as pointed out at the beginning of this season by Kurt Browning
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  28. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I have no patience for this argument. As Rayhaneh points out in the previous post, skating skills are one component out of 5. Skaters with strong skating skills should be rewarded for those under the skating skills mark, and the other components as well as the elements should be evaluated based on the relevant criteria. IMO, Chan is not superior to all other skaters on some of the components and elements, and in some areas he is inferior to certain skaters (e.g. IN, P&E, 3A, spins). I also take issue with how the system rewards specific aspects of a skater's skill set, which is a general complaint not directly related to Chan.

    I don't think skating skills should confer automatic respect, either.

    Criticizing either Chan's results or his skating is not stupid, even if you personally have a different opinion. Liking his skating isn't stupid, either. But for all the attempts to make the system more objective, reactions to skaters, by both judges and fans, are still to a large extent subjective. I wish the ISU would recognize this and find a way to work with it instead of pretending skating can be fully quantified.
     
  29. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    I am quite neutral toward his comments, stupid or otherwise. I respect his basic skating skills but I strongly disagree that he should get very high marks for every component when he has multiple falls in his performances.

    I don't give Carolina a free pass either; she should be marked down when she falls, and not just in the technical. In the past (before 2011) she used to be marked down when she fell down many times. It's only recent that she is getting high marks over other skaters whose speed is not as great as hers but they are not third rate skaters either.

    Chan has been consistently held up whenever he skated poorly. My problem is with your argument that his skating skills are so great that they should overcome any amount of mistakes. Other top skaters are not poor skaters. Takahashi, Hanyu, Kozuka have excellent basic skating skills and speed. Just because Chan's basic skating is better than theirs, does not mean that they have poor skills. Fernandez, Ten and a few others are not too shabby either.

    IMO Chan would have been more respected had he been marked according to his performances, and not based on ONE component- basic skating skills. When he gets high execution marks after making 4 mistakes in a skate, it is so obviously wrong that I am baffled by anyone that argues they are correct.

    It might have even motivated him to give better performances, if the judges had marked his flawed performances correctly. In a way he too was robbed by this kind of judging. The rules are only a part of the problem, and they cannot be used as an excuse.
     
  30. munow

    munow New Member

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    Hanyu is no match to Takahashi, Chan or Kozuka in basic skating. He has good speed over the ice but not the edge quality of those three.