Patrick Chan- why doesnt he get the respect he deserves

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by chanunderrated, May 1, 2013.

  1. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    Yuna was the opposite.
    when Yuna receive the her major titles, she always received a standing ovation, had clean programs and overwhelming won. Even anybody can not start complaining. isn't it? ;)
  2. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    He doesnt get respect because people dont understand this system. Whether he falls or not he still has the best skating skills in the world and people dont like when he is rewarded for that. Also he can be a douche
  3. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I think Proustable put it better:
    The issue with Chan is not that skating fans do not understand the system; many people do understand it, but disagree with what it emphasizes and rewards. Since Chan is the poster boy for how to win under the IJS, he gets the most criticism. Similar comments are sometimes made about other skaters whose skating is a good fit for the current system and who have been very successful, such as Kostner (who is also often accused of doing well while skating not so well), Savchenko/Szolkowy and Davis/White. Because these skaters have had fewer high-profile controversial wins than Chan, and because they have not made the sort of comments Chan has made over the years, the criticism is perhaps milder and less frequent - but it is definitely there.
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  4. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    I can understand people not liking Chan for some of the stupid comments he has made over the years. I agree that Patrick can be very self-centered, arrogant and stubborn. But people criticizing his results is stupid. He is clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters and he is reward the higher points, what is wrong with that. Yes he falls ( the same as kostner ) but their vastly greater skills place their components high enough to allow them to make a few mistakes and still be placed high.

    Dont show him respect because of his comments sure. But dont show no respect because of his results
  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I guess people don't understand how his skating is so superior that he has like a 3-4 fall cushion over other skaters who may not have as great of skating skill as Chan, but they aren't deficient in that department either. At least, some people don't understand why people are ok with such a scoring system, even if they do understand why he has that cushion.
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  6. munow

    munow New Member

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  7. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    His skating skills are outstanding, and I don't think you'll find many people who will deny that. But skating skills only account for one out of 5 PCs. The fact that he has superior skating skills should not automatically translate into superiority in every PC category, as we have often seen in recent years, and thus skating skills themselves should not be enough to make up for several glaring mistakes in a program. I find it a shame (and that comment extends way beyond the case of Patrick Chan) that judges often seem incapable to differenciate between the different sets of skills judged, but instead prefer to keep the marks in the same ballpark for all the PCs (although there have been, of course, welcome exceptions to that)

    To give you an example, at Worlds 2012: in both SP and FS, to my eyes, only the SS mark was fairly accurately marked. Chan deserved superior SS and transitions to Takahashi, albeit by a smaller margin. On the other hand, Takahashi was vastly superior in execution/ performance, choreography and interpretation (and no, these are not purely subjective assessments, there are criteria, tangible elements to look for when assessing those marks). The same is true, by the way, of Jeremy Abbott, who should have been given at least CH and IN in about the same range as Takahashi and at any rate, way above those of Chan (while SS and transitions should have been lower to the other two)

    This differs of course from one competition to the next, as Chan deservedly got the best CH for his SP this season, for instance

    Also, yes, Chan is superior, but the comment that he is "clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters" may have been true in 2011; I think you will find that this is less so nowadays as several athletes are actively closing the gap (and I'd argue is equalled in some respects) as pointed out at the beginning of this season by Kurt Browning
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  8. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I have no patience for this argument. As Rayhaneh points out in the previous post, skating skills are one component out of 5. Skaters with strong skating skills should be rewarded for those under the skating skills mark, and the other components as well as the elements should be evaluated based on the relevant criteria. IMO, Chan is not superior to all other skaters on some of the components and elements, and in some areas he is inferior to certain skaters (e.g. IN, P&E, 3A, spins). I also take issue with how the system rewards specific aspects of a skater's skill set, which is a general complaint not directly related to Chan.

    I don't think skating skills should confer automatic respect, either.

    Criticizing either Chan's results or his skating is not stupid, even if you personally have a different opinion. Liking his skating isn't stupid, either. But for all the attempts to make the system more objective, reactions to skaters, by both judges and fans, are still to a large extent subjective. I wish the ISU would recognize this and find a way to work with it instead of pretending skating can be fully quantified.
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I am quite neutral toward his comments, stupid or otherwise. I respect his basic skating skills but I strongly disagree that he should get very high marks for every component when he has multiple falls in his performances.

    I don't give Carolina a free pass either; she should be marked down when she falls, and not just in the technical. In the past (before 2011) she used to be marked down when she fell down many times. It's only recent that she is getting high marks over other skaters whose speed is not as great as hers but they are not third rate skaters either.

    Chan has been consistently held up whenever he skated poorly. My problem is with your argument that his skating skills are so great that they should overcome any amount of mistakes. Other top skaters are not poor skaters. Takahashi, Hanyu, Kozuka have excellent basic skating skills and speed. Just because Chan's basic skating is better than theirs, does not mean that they have poor skills. Fernandez, Ten and a few others are not too shabby either.

    IMO Chan would have been more respected had he been marked according to his performances, and not based on ONE component- basic skating skills. When he gets high execution marks after making 4 mistakes in a skate, it is so obviously wrong that I am baffled by anyone that argues they are correct.

    It might have even motivated him to give better performances, if the judges had marked his flawed performances correctly. In a way he too was robbed by this kind of judging. The rules are only a part of the problem, and they cannot be used as an excuse.
  10. munow

    munow New Member

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    Hanyu is no match to Takahashi, Chan or Kozuka in basic skating. He has good speed over the ice but not the edge quality of those three.
  11. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    What is wrong with that it's that we have a vastly flawed system that allows him to win controversial championships based on his skating skills alone. What kind of message is this sending young skaters? Do you really believe his skating skills are so superior to everybody else including his main rivals that he has 2 to 3 fall advantage over everybody else? You really do believe his rivals all have shit skating skills?

    Gawd, how true.
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
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  12. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Did you forget his two near perfect quads at worlds? Besides nobody mentioned excrement in connection with the SS of his rivals.... other than you.
  13. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Patrick is the winner, but isn't a champion.
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    And Plushenko is the champion, not the winner ?
    Sorry, I couldn't resist :p
  15. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    :( this is Patrick's thread.
    I'm sure, you understand, what I wanted to say..
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  16. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I understand ;)
  17. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  18. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    See this statement means that everyone is supposed to agree with you? So what if we don't? He has superior skating skills - but over all other skaters? I assume this means that in order for Patrick to receive the amount of respect you seem to think is necessary is that everyone, every fan must agree with your statement.

    If the only way that Patrick will have received all the respect that some think is due is for 98% of the skating fan base or 100% of the fan base agrees that Patrick has the most superior skating skills of any current or past skaters, I doubt that will ever happen. After all we can't agree that the earth is round despite actual photos from space

    If you think that respect means that the judges reward him - then he has that respect and the rest shouldn't matter right?
  19. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    ITA with this portion of your assessment, Coach. I have written several times and in several places phases, etc. that mirror this assessment. The response I have gotten is v e n o m o u s .....

    However, ITA with you. He doesn't get the respect that is expected because he doesn't behave like a champion and often, he can be compared to a feminine hygiene product one would use on a summer's eve......

    and the bag it comes in .....
  20. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    EXACTLY!!!!! Great way to sum it up....
  21. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    And a comment like this is somewhat disappointing, but one that we're not supposed to really engage with.
  22. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    Only because the system? In the past, I've never felt this trend that Criteria for PCS is just only from skating skills.
    I do not know exactly when the judges made ​​this trend. I worried about whether this is just made for some skaters who have superior skating skills.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  23. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    Can't say for sure but I think the reason he doesn't get sponsorship/endorsements is because it just doesn't happen much in Canada. Nobody's interested until the Olympics role around and then maybe for another 5 minute after they end, then it just goes away. It's been a complaint for years but nothing changes. I heard a comedian make a joke one time and I can't quote exactly but it went something like 'If you win one Olympic gold medal in the U.S. you get your face on the Wheaties box and a 5 million dollars deal with Reebok. In Canada you can come home with 10 Olympic gold medals and the best you can hope for is a promotion to Assistant Manager at Home Depot' Funny but kinda true, and kinda sad. We'll see if anything turns up in the near furture. He was one of the most prominent athletes featured before Vancouver so we'll see very soon if it happens again but I don't believe anyone is scared off by what he says. JMO.
  24. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    Well, it really depends on the athlete's marketability and what they've achieved (i.e. minimum Olympic medal, probably). Virtue/Moir, for instance, signed that big endorsement deal with Roots after winning the gold in Vancouver and have a bunch of corporate sponsors like PricewaterhouseCoopers. Also, even though Joannie Rochette didn't win an Olympic gold, her heart-affirming story got her a LOT of sponsors and endorsements after the Olympics, including Birks jewellery, General Mills and Lasik.

    I think Patrick can (and will) attract more sponsors and such if he wins the OGM, but realistically he has a bit more of an uphill struggle for sponsors than Virtue/Moir and Joannie. Virtue/Moir and Joannie present unblemished, picture-perfect images to the mainstream Canadian public, while Patrick caused a lot of furor over his China comments. The mainstream public has no clue about 95% of Patrick's foot-in-mouth moments, but those China comments got him a lot of bad press, especially since they were featured in the Globe and Mail.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  25. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Patrick Chan (whether u agree or not) DOES have greater skating skills, and transitions than all other male skaters. And im sure many have watched him live, but when i watch him, those fantastic skills and transitions make people go WOW which some people comprehend that to him having good performance/execution. And then also when people see all his transitions performed so well, then they comprehend that to mean he has good choreography because he looks nice doing all these steps and turns and body movements. Sure his interpretation is not the best, but skating skills and transitions is IS FAR SUPERIOR and in performance and choreography is is absolutely in top 4.

    And yes his superior skating skills and transitions should allow him room to make a few mistakes. Same with Carolina Kostner, why would they spend so much time perfecting their components skills if they aren't going to be rewarded for being better than everyone else ? They are deservedly rewarded allowing them to make some faults.

    Once again, get angry at him because of his comments not because he is rewarded for his superior skills.
  26. torren

    torren New Member

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    In 2013 world, Carolina kostner was ranked first in all category in PCS with one fall on 3-3. she beat Murakami, Osmond who have higher BV, have Clean programs and took second place in the SP. LoL!
    I thought that Murakami has to be 2rd. Not as bad as Patrick Chan's case but i feel it is not right,too. Anyway Usually people think 'fall' should receive a larger deduction and cleaner program should have more advantage. Your opinion is not popular at all.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  27. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    But my argument is correct. Patrick and Carolina have far greater skills in 4/5 components than any other skater. They are then rewarded for their superior skills. They are still deducted the same way as everyone else. They are given -1 fort he fall and a -2/-3 on the faulted element. It is completely fair

    I can understand and i agree that ISU should consider bonus points for skaters who have a clean performance. Or that you want the ISU to penalize more for falling. But atm there is no such rule. Dont get angry at Patrick or Carolina because you dont agree with the system.
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  28. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is a subjective opinion. It is neither correct nor incorrect.

    My opinion is that Patrick Chan is not superior to all his competitors on 4 of the 5 components, let alone "far better". If you're really a skating coach, you need to better understand the difference between different parts of a performance and their evaluation: skating skills ≠ P&E, and "looking nice" ≠ CH, as you mistakenly seem to believe. Chan is also not superior in all the technical elements. It is this insistence that he is so vastly better than everyone, at everything, all the time, that is a turnoff to many skating fans. I would also argue that a messy performance is not a great display of skating skills, but that is neither here nor there.

    I'll leave Kostner out of this as she does not enjoy the sort of scoring compared to her competitors that Chan does.

    The ISU does not need a bonus for clean performances. It needs to ensure that skaters are marked for what they actually do rather than what they can theoretically do. I don't care how good Chan's/Kostner's/Savchenko & Szolkowy's programs are on paper, I care about how good they are on the ice and in competition. And I happen to like Caro and S/S. As for the rest:

    1. Many fans have issues with the scoring system. As Patrick Chan is very much identified with IJS-friendly skating, sometimes criticism that should be framed as being related to the system is directed at him.
    2. In addition, some people don't like Patrick Chan as a skater - because they feel he is not musical, because they think he makes too many mistakes, because his programs don't speak to them, or because he simply isn't their cup of tea.
    3. Some people don't like Patrick Chan's public persona, due to various unfortunate comments over the years.

    Not liking Patrick Chan's skating or persona are no less and no more "correct" than liking them. Same goes for any other skater.
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  29. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    double post
  30. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    really? disappointing like Chan's victories...
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
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  31. torren

    torren New Member

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    This is slightly off the subject. but in the rule it must receive -3. Not -2 or -3. But she did not. The connect triple toe which she fell was clearly under-rotated but she did not received "<" http://youtu.be/jNLvKCQEXdA?t=1m15s
    Not only because of the rules. I have had doubtful in many cases.
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
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  32. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    You have some good points here. First i would rather you not insult my knowledge as a coach. Yes i understand the differences in the 5 components however many judges do not and i may have worded it wrong, but i was trying to say something from the judges perspective. I understand that many judges mix them all together to be like 1 component instead of 5. I wasn't trying to say that i mix them together, i meant the judges do.

    In the end not liking Patrick because of his persona and comments is fine and i agree he can be a douche. Not liking patrick because he is not particularly musical is also fine. But dont hate on Patrick because the scoring system is somewhat flawed or that the judges aren't very smart. Although most of the time i agree with the judges results, because i believe he does deserve greater skating skills and transitions and choreography even if he falls and most judges believe this too. But if you dont agree, then dont hate on patrick, hate on the judges.
  33. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    When in the hell are your going to understand we are not "hating on" Patrick???? I haven't seen many comments here that radiate "hatred." Some of us don't think his skating skills are the absolute best in existence, we think he is being overscored when he wins with falls, and yes, we get it, that's on the judges . He is very talented and has many good qualities in his skating. We also think he needs to WORK on some of his skills, particularly his jumps. That doesn't mean we don't respect what he brings to the ice. Some of the posters here, including me, are just not completely over the moon about Patrick Chan and continual posts about "haters" are not going to make us suddenly decide he's the best skater that ever took the ice. It seems that you and some of the other Chan fans here just cannot handle him being criticized in any way. Here's some news for you: criticism is not hatred. It's observing where we think a skater could make improvements, be it in their skating skills or in the way they handle interviews.

    Plus it would help if your could understand that for the average person who is not a skater, skating coach, or very serious fan, it's hard for them to understand why a skater who regularly zamboni's the ice with his butt places higher than those who also have great overall skating and land all their jumps. Yes, he has edges to die for, but that's only one component of a performance. And pointing that out, again, is not "hatred."
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  34. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    You and others may not be 'hating' on him Yazmeen, and I get it if you're not a fan, that's fine but some are just in it for pure hatred. Name calling and spewing out vicious disgusting statement, creating thread after thread all aimed at bitching about how much they don't like Patrick. But again that's not everyone and you are certanly entitled to not like him and not like his skating but it's getting a bit beyond with some of the people, and some of their comments, but then this happens not just with Patrick, he's just the target at the moment. He is not a perfect person nor a perfect skater but I don't think he deserves some of the thing that are said on here. Again he just skates he is not the judge, he does not score himself, as sk8ingcoach said aim your anger in the direction of the judges and the system when it comes to being bothered by his 'unjustified victories'. That is something he can not control.
  35. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Just NO! That goes for Patrick and for anyone else. Very bad precedent set mainly for Patrick under IJS.

    And in any case, Patrick's "transitions" are NOT superior to those of every other skater.

    Boy, weezy, jeezy ... we now have your permission to "get angry at Patrick because of his comments..." :duh: Is it possible we can just "get angry" at you for yours? Or maybe we can "get angry" at the judges and go on strike at events where Patrick wins with numerous errors???

    Patrick, are you listening? Please stay on your feet, so these numerous Chan-fest threads on FSU can come to an end. But I guess that would unfortunately mean another target for uber ire or devotion would be singled out.

    BTW, anyways some excellent points are being made by many thoughtful posters not riding a high horse. ;)

    :gallopin1

    No matter what any of us have to say, Pat may indeed ride his high horse and his SS all the way to Sochi Olympic gold. Let's hope if that's the case, he will ultimately redeem himself in the hearts and minds of all skating fans. A tall order at this point, but it only takes two mesmerizing and clean athletic/ artistic performances for him to do so. He already has the hearts and minds of ISU judges and the Chan gang.
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  36. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    It has proved that it doesn't work, neither booing nor "petitioning".:p Can you think something new and more productive?:shuffle: Such as trying to think like how the judges think? Or otherwise submitting suggestions in details to ISU?
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
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  37. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    You are really riding your high horse, coach. We are not idiots, just because we don't coach skaters.

    I don't hate Patrick. Far from it. I actually enjoy watching his flow on the ice. However, when in a competition he is given marks that he does not deserve due to MULTIPPLE mistakes (I am forgiving of one fall in an otherwise well skated program), I do have a problem with it. The judges are not judging what the skater actually did in the competition, and that is the issue here. It has nothing to do with any of us hating or loving Patrick. However, you seem to be in the 'blindly loving' camp. You can continue to do blind worship; just don't put us down for being more objective.
  38. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    And think that it's exactly some of those people who complain that Chan's fans won't let them express a different opinion of Patrick. But God forbid someone should dare to defend Patrick's scores because that person would immediately be branded a blind worshipper. And all this in the name of fairness and objectivity. lol
  39. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I hope that kind of thing forces other skaters, and especially the young skaters (with coaches) to work on basic skating skills.
    In the 90's, coaches were only focused on jumps, jumps, jumps. A skater with better jumps was prefered by coaches.
    I really hope it will change.
    The essence of Figure skating is skating skills, use of the blades, edges, transitions... ;)
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  40. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    ....and jumps. Otherwise we might as well just watch figures, or may be ice dance.

    It's not like other skaters don't work on the basics. Many Japanese and Russian (and some N.American) skaters have excellent basics, transitions, edges. Patrick is extraordinarily gifted in that area. He is a natural. However, if FS is to be considered a sport, I want to see the athleticism encouraged, and not just watch skaters do edgework across the ice, and fall on jumps.