Patrick Chan- why doesnt he get the respect he deserves

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by chanunderrated, May 1, 2013.

  1. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    It will take me some time to study your thesis.;)

    First:

    Patrick's musicality is not as good as Jason Brown and Jeremy Abbott could put on ice. However, Daisuke Takahashi's musicality has been limited by his skating abilities. I believe he is more musical than he has put on the ice. Sometimes, he just has to compromise it in that regards in order to concentrate on his elements which he has to do. In the contrast, Patrick could and has used up all he has well on ice. Denis Ten is no more musical than Chan. I don't care about the past skaters in this aspect.
  2. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I havent seen that much of Jason Brown. I love musical skaters though so maybe I should watch some of his tapes since it seems he gets high praise from people on this thread for that aspect of his skating. Does he have a shot at the U.S Olympic team.
  3. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    The moment I submitted my post I realized that I should mentions Patrick's musicality.

    If you look at his early body of work and again that if you look at his Mannish Boy ex ( saw it again live last friday) you can why Sandra Bezic call him very musical. However as Patrick developed technically he had to sacrifice some of that innate musicality to his elements. Now there is no way that Patrick is close to Buttle or even Abbott. But then both Buttle or Abbott cannot deliver the tougher elements, transitions etc in their skates. Totally agree that Denis Ten is more musical than Chan. If you look at the artist program it looks so much like a generic Lori-Chan program without the higher level of difficulty that Lori gave Chan!
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Seriously, re that first part? Re the last highlighted part, ITA, except that's like die-hard figure skating fans trying not to identify with figure skating and with their favorite skaters.

    In any case, I don't think the judges are at all caught up in Patrick's persona, etc., just his quads and his SS, even when these assets are not always at their best.


    Aha! What some unashamed Chan lovers don't seem to get is that many Chan detractors, as well as most neutral observers who critique his wins are specifically and exclusively basing their criticisms upon the way Chan skates and wins too often with glaring mistakes.
  5. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    I've personally never heard the argument that Patrick doesn't deserve his wins because of his lack of tact. I don't think a skater's personality should affect their standing (unless they're whacking someone with a club cough cough), but you never know how irrelevant things can affect the subconscious (hence why a skater's costume is somewhat important...)
    I think the criticism of Patrick as a person is separate from the criticisms of him as a skater.
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I think Chan gets the respect he deserves for his superb basic skating skills and the detail in his skating. When he lands his jumps he does get the respect. The only time he does not get respect is when he is given the wins despite multiple mistakes- some major ones- in his performances. If this was a rare occurrence, it won't be a big deal, but it has happened far too often to go unnoticed. On top of that, his lack of humility rubs some people the wrong way.
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  7. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, the Chan fans missed my point. I can appreciate his skills, I just don't like his skating. Which in most of your estimation means that those of us who do not apparently disrespect Chan and you. No matter how many times I see him live, I have said I appreciate his skating, I don't like his skating.

    It boils down to - in your opinion I don't like him therefore I am disrespecting. Don't you think it is rather disrespectful to others to insist that we must see him exactly as you do? I hesitate to say anything about what I think regarding his speed, etc. because I HAVE been told now Congratulations you are a convert and have seen the light. :confused: just because I said I appreciated some aspect of his skating. For me life is not that black or white.

    As for his public persona and no one should judge his skating by those remarks, there are many talented people in this world in all sports or professions, if they act out whether in the media or other ways, I judge them on those things too. I give them a semi-free ride on behavior if they are young and new in the media. I don't when they have been on the scene for many, many years and think that it is reflective of either poor PR education or something else.

    This is a public forum, international forum, skating forum. That means people will like different skaters, people will take apart the programs, competition, compare skaters to others, have strong opinions. in my opinion any skater that is skating on the elite scene - whether it is the world stage or their home country have my respect.
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  8. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear, Emdee. BE NOT like Patrick please, throwing dirt on other skaters in order to prove PC's worth. Apparently, you mispeak like the one you adore as well, in that saying Abbott cannot deliver tougher elements and transitions is so inaccurate, it's dumbfounding. :eek: Clearly Jeremy Abbott can and has incorporated tough elements in his programs, and he is renowned for his transitions, and as well for his artistry and his choreographic talents! Abbott's problems are known to be mentally-based and now physically as well as a veteran who doesn't have many chances left. Abbott has lacked consistency and mental toughness, but there are many skating fans including myself, who'd rather watch Jereamazin' skate all day, even over participating in the tempting and ever so endless FSU Chan debates. ;)
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  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Exactly - the whole thing, though I only left the parts I most agreed with.

    Who gets to decide how much respect Chan deserves, how much admiration, or how many fans? I don't feel that the opinions of his fans are more valid or justified than the opinions of his critics (barring the trollish idiots, who should not be fed anyway). Nor do I believe that he's superior to other skaters in all ways and that this point of view shouldn't be challenged. If people want their favorite to be discussed only in a positive way, they should stick to uber threads.
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Your points of view and welcome to them. I disagree. Denis Ten still has much to accomplish perhaps but he is definitely more artistic and musical than Patrick Chan, and Denis moves very gracefully and smoothly over the ice, albeit Denis does not have Chan's blade mastery and speed. Dai is a mesmerizing and charismatic skater, who like Jeremy A, is getting up in age and therefore has physical limitations to overcome. The fact Dai has challenged himself and grown so much as a skater, and the fact he has overcome so much in his career and has come back in such an awe-inspiring way from serious injury is not as heralded as it should be IMHO! In fact, Dai needs his own thread entitled: Chanatic-driven antics from anti and pro PC-ers, as well as from ISU judges have overshadowed Daisuke Takahashi's talents and accomplishments -- Dai :wuzrobbed royally at 2010 Olympics and 2012 Worlds. Ummm, perhaps judgejudy can help with editing this proposed thread title. :rofl:


    Jason Brown is a dream skater. The U.S. men's field is loaded with talent and only two spots are available, therefore 2018 Olympic team is more likely for Jason. Also, JB still needs to develop his quads and maximize his recently mastered 3-axel. But he is uber-talented and very enthusiastic. I thank the skating gods that JB has his family, his coach, his gifted choreographer, Rohene Ward, his friends, and his rival in Joshua Farris, to keep him grounded with nose to the grindstone. And indeed, he will hopefully have the time needed to fully develop in a less over-hyped way than poor Patrick has been afforded.

    You should check out The Skating Lesson podcast's recent interview with Jason Brown. He's an amazing talker as well as a wonderful person seemingly filled with joy for figure skating. I hope he doesn't lose too much of his innocence and joy.
  11. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Chan moves more gracefully and smoothly over the ice with his blade mastery and speed.:p

    Go ahead to worship your musicality god.

    I'm starting to wonder what have been credited into Takahashi's actual skating from his off ice public persona and his dazzling upper body movements and his hair and his face?:rofl:
  12. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    I totally agree with this assessment.

    In addition, I would like to say that Patrick and his skating skills do not overly impress me. For me, he is NOT a better skater in terms of skills and performances as compared to other champions and skaters I have seen since 1970. He is not a better skater than John Curry or Toller Cranston or Robin Cousins or Scott Hamilton or Brian Orser or Brian Boitano or Ilia Kulik or Kurt Browning or Misha Petkovich or Robert Waggonhoffer or Jeff Buttle or Stephane Lambiel or a whole host of names of great male skaters.

    While still world class and a world champion, Patrick Chan, his programs and his performances seem forgettable. SorryBoutIt.
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  13. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, how are the non-Chan fans not allowed to voice a different opinion? From what I've seen, the negative comments about Chan always outnumber the positive ones, at least on this board. Maybe you were thinking of another place that I am not aware of?

    You must be confusing me with someone else because I definitely didn't make any estimation about the respect Patrick would deserve or would not deserve in my earlier post.

    Why do fans need someone to tell them what threads they should stick to?:confused:
  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Yes, people only like Dai because of his hair (he does have excellent hair), Lambiel because he's cute, Joubert because he is hot, Javi because he's Spanish and Hanyu because of Pooh. Obviously only Patrick Chan can be admired on account of his skating :rolleyes:

    Yours is exactly the sort of comment that will convince nobody.

    Why do non-fans need ubers to tell them what's an appropriate way to discuss someone? :confused:

    In fact, I did not tell fans what threads to hang out in. I told fans who are unwilling to accept opposing viewpoints to stick with fellow fans.
  15. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I should have written this differently. When a slew of tougher elements are added to his programs Abbott is not able to carrry the performance technically. This may be a mental or a physical problem but it sure affects his performance. I have only seen him live in the last three years so am not talking about his heyday when I only saw him on the TV.
  16. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Welcome to your impressions as well, Eyre, of course. :) Figure skating is subjective after all. IMO, Chan moves smoothly and elegantly over the ice but with studied, and not very natural artistry. IOW, his cool speed and mastery of blade seems to enhance the view that he is very good musically and artistically. Definitely Chan's presentation skills have improved under the tutelage of Buttle and Kathy Johnson.

    Again, you too are welcome to your views and to your misinterpretations of my views. ;) I don't think Dai Takahashi is a musicality God and he's not my favorite male figure skater either, but I am a Dai fan and I admire him tremendously. In fact, Dai is a superb athlete and a charismatic skater who has continuously soaked up learning experiences and has consistently challenged himself to grow as a person and a skater to the enjoyment and pleasure of non-discriminatory, non-Chan obsessed skating fans around the world. :)

    ETA:

    Dai is also most definitely a gracious sportsman who is a wonderful role model and representative for the sport of figure skating. In all these aspects, the same can not be said of Patrick Chan, no matter how PC's fans and ISU judges might desire to spin it.
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  17. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    I was trying to link the skaters's skating with their off ice persona, just like some people have already explained well earlier in this thread.;)
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  18. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    One could argue that when tougher elements are added, Chan is usually unable to carry off his performances, either. :shuffle:
  19. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Spot on!

    Oh Emdee, seriously? What do you mean by "a slew of tougher elements?" Clearly, Abbott is capable of landing quads, however inconsistently and in recent years infrequently. He also can do the tough elements with transitions, but nerves and injury problems have been his downfall. Under competitive pressure, Abbott has been unable to consistently overcome his nerves (I think he often over-thinks during performances which is a huge no-no for any athlete).

    I'm eager to see what Jeremy's collaboration with Robin Cousins will bring next season. Hopefully, Robin may be able to impart some wisdom to Jeremy also re not over-thinking during performances, and learning how to rise above the pressure.
  20. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Chan is falling prey to nerves as well. I think this is what he has said in some interviews.
    He must feel like being in a pressure cooker ... every skater must no doubt... but more so Chan who we burden with our expectations.
  21. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    So Chan fans need to be told not to state their own opinions on Chan in any threads other than in Chan fan thread?:rolleyes:
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  22. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    That is a ridiculous interpretation of what I wrote. What I did suggest is some fans need to understand that not all others will share their opinions - or, if they cannot accept that, to limit their interactions on the subject to like-minded individuals.
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I think that Chan's very loyal and devoted fans actually outnumber the vocal detractors. And some of the more obsessed Chan fans have been overly defensive and aggressive which has tended to be off-putting as well. I believe many skating fans have bent over backward to try and be fair in their comments, and when Chan skates well I have seen many favorable comments and kudos. Thanks to the more well-balanced views of calmer Chan fans, I believe many of us realize that Chan has actually been boxed into a no-win situation not of his making. It's unfortunate that the huge spotlight surrounding him has led to him saying things that have added to the critical disregard.

    With the increase of Chan's wins with mistakes, especially since the last two Worlds, there indeed has been an increase in vocal criticism of Chan on FSU, but it still does not outnumber the support and regard by his strong fan base on FSU.
  24. Dilng

    Dilng Well-Known Member

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    :respec:
  25. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Same goes to any other skater fans. Why should only Chan fans be told this over and over?:confused: I realized that there was one or two over the top Chan ubers. But those Chan ubers haven't posted on FSU for a long long time.
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ But honestly, Chan wins the prize for the most loyal, adoring, and feistily defensive-minded fans ever (perhaps Yu Na comes close as well, but still Chan surpasses). What other skaters have fans who fancy themselves as a gang?
  27. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    :lol: You need to read more carefully

    To go back to the title of the thread: I think overall Chan does get the respect he deserves. Let's not forget that anti-Chan are a minority of those really passionate about figure skating, who themselves are a minority of the people watching figure skating. The general public who only watches on occasion will respect him, if anything, for the number of titles and medals he's won which clearly reflect that he has been, in terms of results, the skater who has dominated head and shoulders this Olympic cycle, regardless of the result at Sochi or even during the next season as a whole

    A lot of people, both casual viewers and fans of the sport, will also respect him for the intrinsic quality of his skating which cannot be denied, regardless of their allegiance to this or that other skater (I certainly place myself in this category). A lot of people also, of course, respect him because they simply love what he does on the ice.

    What I also have a lot of respect for, is the fact that he took the risk of going for a possibly risky choice of coach and deliberately set out to work on his artistry and went much more difficult, interesting choreographies this season, at least with his SP which is a marvel of finesse by Buttle, and which Chan definitely does justice with his skating. And he is in my view, even if sometimes faillible, a great competitor overall - figure skating is a sport and this matters greatly

    However, even if I respect Patrick on a lot of levels, that doesn't mean that we all have to love, or even respect, everything he does or say, and I think that's the concept some ubers have difficulties with. I don't regard all of his victories as such: his 2012 and 2013 World titles will remain tainted in my eyes because I don't feel the marks received reflected what we saw on the ice, especially in the latter occasion compared to Denis Ten (in 2012 Takahashi made a crucial mistake in his SP which would have made a win difficult anyway, although he was also quite clearly fleeced in PCs in both SP and FS while Chan was overmarked....): this in itself does not diminish the respect I have towards Patrick Chan directly, because it is the judges, not himself, who are at fault here (and in a few others as well, although that did not necessarily affect the placement in the end). But it does mean I cannot regard both those world titles as fully deserved and, like others have pointed out, I see both Takahashi and Ten as "moral winners" in these instances

    Also, while I recognize the qualities of Patrick Chan's skating on an technical level, his skating just does not speak to my soul. Both because his style simply does not particularily appeal to me and because I don't feel Chan is able, at least not yet, to pour some of himself into the interpretation of his music, although he came a little closer to that with his SP this season. This is something that, as a former performer myself, I hold in highest esteem, which means I will always respect those able to do that, on occasion, or in much rarer cases on a regular basis, more.

    Where I think he sometimes deservedly loses a little of that respect is over some of the declarations he makes. And please don't give me the "he is refreshingly honest" excuse: I love people who speak their mind, and I am hardly annoyed by every little thing he says. But there are times when he is downright lacking respect towards his competitors and/ or the competitions themselves, his declarations about WTT recently the most recent example of it, and that's a line he just shouldn't cross, unless he mastered self-depreciating humor to balance things out but that's not exactly the case either

    It's a shame because, based on his interractions with other skaters when we see backstage images or gala practice, he seems to go along well with a lot of them so, while I don't know him, that conforts me in my idea that he must be a pretty nice guy. But I don't know him so I can only really go on what he says and based solely on that, he does come across as a bit of a spoiled brat which can only get him so far in terms of due respect

    All this verbiage is of course a personal view and/ or understanding, but I still put it out there because I know some of these points are actually shared by others. I also hope it will help allievate some of the worries some Chan fans seem to have that people who criticize Chan just love to hate him: I think you'll find that you can respect someone up to a certain point but just not subscribe to everything he says/ does, or even actively dislike some of the things that that person does or says
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
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  28. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Chan does have devoted fans who idolize him no matter what he does on the ice or says off the ice. But the one group that haven't warmed up to Patrick are corporate sponsors. He wouldn't have the financial difficulties he complains of if he were more circumspect when it comes to what he says to the press. He isn't getting sponsorships or endorsements because his habit of venting to the press make him something of a loose cannon, and a controversial sports figure is not appealing from a corporate point of view.

    Chan is his own worst enemy when it comes to being financially solvent.
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  29. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    True. I should. Thanks!

    But this time, I did. Still I will say the samething. It actually takes a bit of history to say the samething.;)
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Ah, impasse I suppose.

    rayhaneh volubly and in a very unbiased way shares thoughtful viewpoints, yet still you are moved to "say the samething..."
  31. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    To answer the question of the thread in a very forward manner......

    Chan does not get the level of respect expected for him because as a World Champion and Canadian Champion, his performances on the ice are forgettable and his off-ice remarks do not command respect from sports writers, fans or fellow competitors.

    "Hot mess" can be used to describe his programs with many falls and errors and "hot mess" can be used to describe his published interviews.

    Far too often, Chan is a hot mess. This is why he does not get the expected level of "respect."
  32. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Basically, one side thinks that Chan is victimized by people who for one reason or another (fans of other skaters, bitter about his wins, not liking his off-ice persona, don't appreciate his abilities, Canadian animosity, etc.) and is under constant attack. Another side thinks that Chan fans are just blind worshippers who aren't objective enough in their fandom to understand why he's being criticized.

    Then there are most people in the middle who do agree about the merits of his skating but don't agree on the level that it's being awarded when he's not executing his programs cleanly.

    People like skaters for various reasons. Some take the whole package, some like musicality and performance, others don't think performance is nearly as important as pure skating skills, others think he is musical, others don't, etc. I think it's foolish to tell people they are wrong for liking someone based subjective matters and preferences. It's one thing to argue about whether Chan has great skating skills, it's another to say you're wrong for not liking him because you don't appreciate those skills enough.
  33. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, but you forgot to mention the no-less adoring, yet often more reasonable, calm and politely considerate Chan fans of which there are a few -- despite usually being overshadowed by OTT ubers and some of his detractors.

    Definitely, it seems that the OTT, overly defensive Chan fans as well as the entrenched over-scoring by ISU judges (in addition to Patrick's unhappy comments which demonstrate his lack of self-awareness and self-responsibility) have led to more fans being vocally critical re the way Chan often wins with error-strewn programs.

    In regard to Patrick, to each their own. And now, why not let's listen and learn from athletes who truly have something to teach us all. Patrick and other skaters could learn so much from listening to this Aspen Institute-sponsored panel discussion with Michelle Kwan, two former Olympic swimming champions, and two remarkable paralympic athletes. The conversation was presented to young athletes and aspiring Olympic hopefuls in Roaring Fork Valley, Colorado.

    Some very wise, positive and inspiring words from all of the panelists!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fWD8wE0BFs
  34. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Ok well at least we now know which name Patrick's mom posts under...
  35. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    I think some of the Chan fans are also interpreting that because some of us don't like his public persona, it affects how we see his skating (I saw my own post interpreted in this way). The person who started this thread wanted know why Chan doesn't get the respect he deserves. That is not just about his skating skills. Personally, I think he has tremendous skating skills and movement and just needs to fix those jump problems. I generally enjoy watching him skate, although I take issue with how is scored with all those falls (and I realize he doesn't have control over his scores). But his overall persona and his attitude plays into how people do or do not "respect" him. And his persona frankly has a lot of negatives, and I think its hurting him in the public eye and with an ability to gain endorsements and other support he could badly use. I can respect his skating and I do, but I don't respect his attitude. Same way I can believe Tonya Harding was an amazing skater and also a criminal who deserved to be banned from the sport.
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  36. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    I don't believe this to be true, but I believe it's become so entrenched that it might as well be.

    In general, the reasons that Chan isn't popular are

    a) He favours the technical over the artistic
    b) He's the apotheosis of a controversial system that many feel has robbed the sport of it's beauty
    c) The difference between his dominance (in terms of victories) and successful skates is startling
  37. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    So Chan-fans are fancying themselves as a gang while non-Chan-fans are ganging up.:yikes::slinkaway

    One at a time.:p I'm still studying your thesis.;) Here is the result of this study:D:

    What is the measure of "the best man"? Is this "the best man" subjective? That's where I'm still not getting it. In 2011 World, Chan skated with no falls. But many say Kozuka should have won. I'm sure the judges, even in 2012 and 2013 worlds, believed that they had given the best marks to whom they thought was the best man.:COP:
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  38. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Chan is a 3 time world champion, well loved by the judges and always gets high PCS no matter you agree or not. And he has a huge fan base, quite some are very devoted, on what planet he's underrated? Unless someone is expecting too much.
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  39. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Abbott is totally capable of doing intricate choreography. When he does it, he does it nicer than Chan because Abbott has much better carriage and emotions connecting to the music. Those are important qualities of Performance/Execution. As for skating skills, Chan has great speed, but speed is not the norm for skating skills, but the variation of speed is, same thing under 6.0. There are often some slow part in Abbott's programs, but he speeds up in a split second when needed. Luckily for Chan, he's the kind of person even if you give him Hanyu's jump he will screw it up.
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  40. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Some Chan fans cannot stand the slightest criticism of him. Clearly their definition of respect is "never say anything negative about Chan, no matter what the situation".