Patrick Chan- why doesnt he get the respect he deserves

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by chanunderrated, May 1, 2013.

  1. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he does many things well, but that doesn't mean we should think he is the be all and end all of all things skating when he keeps falling as many times as he does. And I think what bothers a lot of people is that Patrick's falls seem to be overlooked or ignored when he competes, and that "break" isn't given to most other fine skaters. I'm neither a Chan fan nor a Chan hater, but it bothers me to see someone who falls multiple times continually held up like he is. It is pretty obvious something has gone seriously haywire with his jump technique and he needs to get it fixed pronto. As to his public persona, he needs to develop a few filters or at least train himself to pause and think for just a brief moment before he speaks. Regardless of how brilliant his skating is, he comes off like an ass or at best a petulant child in interviews, and that's not the behavior of a champion.

    Chan fans seems very frustrated that some can't separate his skating and public personas, but they do go together and can affect how people look at a skater (the world didn't exactly cut Nancy Kerrigan a break for a few ill-timed remarks after Lillehammer either, and Pasha Grishuk is as well know for her egotistical attitude as for her skating). Similarly, some fans cannot separate the quality of the edges as a sign of brilliance when the same skater can't seem to hold that quality edge consistently in his jumps. Chan has a lot of fine qualities, but the negatives sometimes overwhelm those fine qualities.
     
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  2. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Agree with this whole post.
     
  3. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    The truth is that the judges have separated these two. They have only looked at his skating and judged it accordingly.

    Your post has actually in turn become a perfect proof that the fan views against Chan's skating and his results were wrong.:shuffle: They were blinded and colored by their dislikes for Chan from other sources, such as his off ice public personas.;)
     
  4. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    People complain about events Chan won which he maybe didnt deserve to. However Chan does not give himself his scores. It is not his fault if he possibly wins an event he doesnt deserve like some think the 2012 and/or 2013 Worlds, or other events. What should he do to make people happy with him, hand back his medals. No skater in history has done that. Do you want Grosschuk & Platov to hand back half their medals too as most of them were gifts, more than Chan. It is wrong to blame a skater for disagreeing with judging, especialy a brilliant one like Chan.

    People only talk about events he possibly shouldnt win but they never talk about times he was robbed either. Like the 2009 Worlds where he should have won, and lost out based on PCS to LYSACEK of all people. The 2010 Olympics where his short program was undermarked and the Grand Final this year where he was undermarked. Why no talk about those too.
     
  5. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    My thesis for the day:

    If the numerous Patrick Chan threads on FSU are any indication, apparently Patrick Chan is A Man for All Seasons, in addition to being the SS God and odds-on favorite (especially in the minds of ISU judges and in the hearts of his fans) for winning Sochi OGM. To me it seems he's far from being underrated.

    Lots of posters here make excellent points from varying perspectives. Ultimately, it seems to boil down to the fact that regardless of what anyone thinks, ISU judges are hidebound to prove and to infinitely uphold the firm and undeniable fact that their regard for Patrick is not a fluke. ;) They don’t seem to care about Patrick’s faulty performances, faulty words, or his immature persona, but only his quads and SS (even when those great things are somewhat missing in action during Patrick's performances). In fact, ISU judges seem to care not a whit what critical fans think of their judging – the critiques only seem to spur them to dig in further a la bunker mode. ;)

    When he first burst upon the scene, I was amazed at the smooth and beautiful way Patrick Chan skated at the age of 16. Clearly, he had a great future ahead of him. Unfortunately, the Canadian media and others overly showered Patrick with kudos and hype and grand expectations, which unfortunately IMO put too much pressure on him and led to his overly cocky attitude at 2009 Worlds, which he clearly could have/ perhaps should have won. It’s been all downhill/ uphill from there. Patrick has not been allowed the freedom and astute assessments under competitive conditions that are necessary for growth. He’s not the only skater who might be hampered in this and other ways, but right now he seems to be the most notorious.

    I disagree with Sandra B that Patrick is very musical, but that he simply fails to sell his musicality to the audience. IMO, despite his improvements presentation-wise this season, I think Patrick’s mastery of the blades, speed and smooth skating mask the fact that he is not very musical and moreover he does not interpret the music well. (He does not hold a candle to Jason B, Jeremy A, Dai T, Denis T, Toller C, Robin C, et al., in that respect). Patrick essentially skates over the music, and his artistry is still a bit studied, but because of his amazing talents overall, he can and he does get away with this slight weakness – it’s not a horrible weakness either, because he’s not that bad re musicality. However, to improve musically, artistically, expressively and interpretively, like a lot of young skaters, Patrick still needs to access more of who he is as a person, and often that only comes with maturity or in some cases such qualities are never fully realized.

    Probably Patrick to some degree responds to the media as he does on occasion due to a combination of being a bit immature, as well as overly favored (spoiled) by the judges and consequently feeling over-defensive (not unlike some of his fans). At a very young age, he’s had to deal with a huge spotlight, huge anticipation, overdone hype, thrilling victories, embarrassing wins (that perhaps have engendered confusing messages for him re his level of growth and development as a skater).

    In my mind, the key to Patrick’s humongous IJS success is that Patrick has great desire and he had the gumption and the Plushenko-commanded foresight to work hard on incorporating and mastering quads, and that is the stroke of Chan genius that stunned and awed ISU judges forevermore in the IJS era, which seems to be a curse in disguise. Patrick’s arc and the hullabaloo surrounding him, reads like a Brothers Grimm fairy tale. This whole conundrum of error-ridden wins, SS to-die-for, foot-in-mouth disease, and those for and against seemingly Chan’s very existence has taken on a Friday the 13th life of its own. Patrick appears to be shackeled to IJS, ISU judges, some Chan fans’ defensiveness, Kathy Johnson’s devoted (some of his fans would say messianic) hold over him, a legacy of controversial wins amidst stumbles and falls, some skating fans’ derision, and some Chan gang members’ terrifyingly intense adoration.

    With good and very positive intentions, albeit with tongue-in-cheek (it’s the off-season after all) and FWIW, I say: FREE PATRICK CHAN!!! As has been said ad infinitum, it’s not Patrick’s fault, and that’s a true statement. The question is, will he rise to the occasion and stay on his feet?

    Oh please, may the best man win in Sochi??? Ummm …. I will try not to identify too closely with, but only positively enjoy (hopefully in a very detached way) the road leading up to the outcome. I just want to enjoy all of the skaters, especially in the loaded men’s field, and ignore the judging, but I’m identifying too much with that desire. :wall: Okay, to be honest, Figure Skating, I wish I could quit ya!!!
     
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  6. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    I dont understand what the public persona has to do with his skating. Judges are supposed to judge what they see on the ice. The same should be true of figure skating afficionados. If you are true fan of the sport the two should be separate. Just as we shouldnt be the ones to judge people's skating by sexual orientation we shouldnt judge skating by personal characteristics, which we may either like or dislike, whether those are facial features, colour and race or attitude. Media on the other hand may look at a composite whole because they are judging, if you will, a sports personality -- but a true fan of the sport should be above this.

    This is why it is a mystery to some of us unashamed Chan lovers why so called figure skating fans get so caught up in what he says, how he acts etc when the really important thing is only how he skates.

    Yes I agree that he needs a tech coach, yes I agree that last year he had some really bad programs but I also see that his aesthetic elements are grossly improved. In fact he did exactly what he said he would do that is not concentrate on the jumps but on other elements of his skating.
    One also needs to remember that his transitions and entrances into the jumps are so difficult that he is more likely to fall than others. His jump marks even where he falls however remain high because unlike some of his competitors he fully rotates them.
     
  7. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    I understand the point of separating technical skating skills from a personal dislike (hence my respect for Tonya Harding's technical skills), but I can't at you comparing sexual orientation and race to someone being a dick...
     
  8. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    To the contrary, chanunderrated (what a catchy, if faulty username, btw): Some fans (most notably myself) have often spoken of 2009 Worlds where Patrick should have won, and probably would have won except for his mouthing off against beloved BJ. I have spoken of 2009 Worlds in relation to Patrick deserving to win quite often (I posted my previous post prior to reading your latest too), but skating fans tend to have a peculiar way of hearing and seeing what it is they see and hear, and apparently remember, eh.

    2009 Worlds results may be famously the one and only instance where ISU judges were pointedly sending Patrick Chan a message.


    Probably because you might be in the minority (or mayhap the Chan-fan majority) with those particular viewpoints. :duh:
     
  9. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    I listed all those items including sexual orientation or race or attitude or even immaturity if you like, as something quite separate from a skaters actual skating. Tiger Woods for example is no less a great golfer because of his extra curricular activities. One can respect him as a golfer but not as a man.

    Would anyone say that Hanyu is a bad skater because he bursts into tears on the ice after a good program ? I am amused by it but love his skating as the two have nothing to do with each other. Only in Patrick's case do people create this huge argument about him not being a deserving winner because of what he says to the media.
     
  10. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Agree with a lot of what you say though not everything .... and yes may the best man win in Sochi!
     
  11. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    It will take me some time to study your thesis.;)

    First:

    Patrick's musicality is not as good as Jason Brown and Jeremy Abbott could put on ice. However, Daisuke Takahashi's musicality has been limited by his skating abilities. I believe he is more musical than he has put on the ice. Sometimes, he just has to compromise it in that regards in order to concentrate on his elements which he has to do. In the contrast, Patrick could and has used up all he has well on ice. Denis Ten is no more musical than Chan. I don't care about the past skaters in this aspect.
     
  12. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I havent seen that much of Jason Brown. I love musical skaters though so maybe I should watch some of his tapes since it seems he gets high praise from people on this thread for that aspect of his skating. Does he have a shot at the U.S Olympic team.
     
  13. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    The moment I submitted my post I realized that I should mentions Patrick's musicality.

    If you look at his early body of work and again that if you look at his Mannish Boy ex ( saw it again live last friday) you can why Sandra Bezic call him very musical. However as Patrick developed technically he had to sacrifice some of that innate musicality to his elements. Now there is no way that Patrick is close to Buttle or even Abbott. But then both Buttle or Abbott cannot deliver the tougher elements, transitions etc in their skates. Totally agree that Denis Ten is more musical than Chan. If you look at the artist program it looks so much like a generic Lori-Chan program without the higher level of difficulty that Lori gave Chan!
     
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Seriously, re that first part? Re the last highlighted part, ITA, except that's like die-hard figure skating fans trying not to identify with figure skating and with their favorite skaters.

    In any case, I don't think the judges are at all caught up in Patrick's persona, etc., just his quads and his SS, even when these assets are not always at their best.


    Aha! What some unashamed Chan lovers don't seem to get is that many Chan detractors, as well as most neutral observers who critique his wins are specifically and exclusively basing their criticisms upon the way Chan skates and wins too often with glaring mistakes.
     
  15. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    I've personally never heard the argument that Patrick doesn't deserve his wins because of his lack of tact. I don't think a skater's personality should affect their standing (unless they're whacking someone with a club cough cough), but you never know how irrelevant things can affect the subconscious (hence why a skater's costume is somewhat important...)
    I think the criticism of Patrick as a person is separate from the criticisms of him as a skater.
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I think Chan gets the respect he deserves for his superb basic skating skills and the detail in his skating. When he lands his jumps he does get the respect. The only time he does not get respect is when he is given the wins despite multiple mistakes- some major ones- in his performances. If this was a rare occurrence, it won't be a big deal, but it has happened far too often to go unnoticed. On top of that, his lack of humility rubs some people the wrong way.
     
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  17. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, the Chan fans missed my point. I can appreciate his skills, I just don't like his skating. Which in most of your estimation means that those of us who do not apparently disrespect Chan and you. No matter how many times I see him live, I have said I appreciate his skating, I don't like his skating.

    It boils down to - in your opinion I don't like him therefore I am disrespecting. Don't you think it is rather disrespectful to others to insist that we must see him exactly as you do? I hesitate to say anything about what I think regarding his speed, etc. because I HAVE been told now Congratulations you are a convert and have seen the light. :confused: just because I said I appreciated some aspect of his skating. For me life is not that black or white.

    As for his public persona and no one should judge his skating by those remarks, there are many talented people in this world in all sports or professions, if they act out whether in the media or other ways, I judge them on those things too. I give them a semi-free ride on behavior if they are young and new in the media. I don't when they have been on the scene for many, many years and think that it is reflective of either poor PR education or something else.

    This is a public forum, international forum, skating forum. That means people will like different skaters, people will take apart the programs, competition, compare skaters to others, have strong opinions. in my opinion any skater that is skating on the elite scene - whether it is the world stage or their home country have my respect.
     
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  18. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear, Emdee. BE NOT like Patrick please, throwing dirt on other skaters in order to prove PC's worth. Apparently, you mispeak like the one you adore as well, in that saying Abbott cannot deliver tougher elements and transitions is so inaccurate, it's dumbfounding. :eek: Clearly Jeremy Abbott can and has incorporated tough elements in his programs, and he is renowned for his transitions, and as well for his artistry and his choreographic talents! Abbott's problems are known to be mentally-based and now physically as well as a veteran who doesn't have many chances left. Abbott has lacked consistency and mental toughness, but there are many skating fans including myself, who'd rather watch Jereamazin' skate all day, even over participating in the tempting and ever so endless FSU Chan debates. ;)
     
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  19. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Exactly - the whole thing, though I only left the parts I most agreed with.

    Who gets to decide how much respect Chan deserves, how much admiration, or how many fans? I don't feel that the opinions of his fans are more valid or justified than the opinions of his critics (barring the trollish idiots, who should not be fed anyway). Nor do I believe that he's superior to other skaters in all ways and that this point of view shouldn't be challenged. If people want their favorite to be discussed only in a positive way, they should stick to uber threads.
     
  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Your points of view and welcome to them. I disagree. Denis Ten still has much to accomplish perhaps but he is definitely more artistic and musical than Patrick Chan, and Denis moves very gracefully and smoothly over the ice, albeit Denis does not have Chan's blade mastery and speed. Dai is a mesmerizing and charismatic skater, who like Jeremy A, is getting up in age and therefore has physical limitations to overcome. The fact Dai has challenged himself and grown so much as a skater, and the fact he has overcome so much in his career and has come back in such an awe-inspiring way from serious injury is not as heralded as it should be IMHO! In fact, Dai needs his own thread entitled: Chanatic-driven antics from anti and pro PC-ers, as well as from ISU judges have overshadowed Daisuke Takahashi's talents and accomplishments -- Dai :wuzrobbed royally at 2010 Olympics and 2012 Worlds. Ummm, perhaps judgejudy can help with editing this proposed thread title. :rofl:


    Jason Brown is a dream skater. The U.S. men's field is loaded with talent and only two spots are available, therefore 2018 Olympic team is more likely for Jason. Also, JB still needs to develop his quads and maximize his recently mastered 3-axel. But he is uber-talented and very enthusiastic. I thank the skating gods that JB has his family, his coach, his gifted choreographer, Rohene Ward, his friends, and his rival in Joshua Farris, to keep him grounded with nose to the grindstone. And indeed, he will hopefully have the time needed to fully develop in a less over-hyped way than poor Patrick has been afforded.

    You should check out The Skating Lesson podcast's recent interview with Jason Brown. He's an amazing talker as well as a wonderful person seemingly filled with joy for figure skating. I hope he doesn't lose too much of his innocence and joy.
     
  21. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Chan moves more gracefully and smoothly over the ice with his blade mastery and speed.:p

    Go ahead to worship your musicality god.

    I'm starting to wonder what have been credited into Takahashi's actual skating from his off ice public persona and his dazzling upper body movements and his hair and his face?:rofl:
     
  22. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    I totally agree with this assessment.

    In addition, I would like to say that Patrick and his skating skills do not overly impress me. For me, he is NOT a better skater in terms of skills and performances as compared to other champions and skaters I have seen since 1970. He is not a better skater than John Curry or Toller Cranston or Robin Cousins or Scott Hamilton or Brian Orser or Brian Boitano or Ilia Kulik or Kurt Browning or Misha Petkovich or Robert Waggonhoffer or Jeff Buttle or Stephane Lambiel or a whole host of names of great male skaters.

    While still world class and a world champion, Patrick Chan, his programs and his performances seem forgettable. SorryBoutIt.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  23. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, how are the non-Chan fans not allowed to voice a different opinion? From what I've seen, the negative comments about Chan always outnumber the positive ones, at least on this board. Maybe you were thinking of another place that I am not aware of?

    You must be confusing me with someone else because I definitely didn't make any estimation about the respect Patrick would deserve or would not deserve in my earlier post.

    Why do fans need someone to tell them what threads they should stick to?:confused:
     
  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Yes, people only like Dai because of his hair (he does have excellent hair), Lambiel because he's cute, Joubert because he is hot, Javi because he's Spanish and Hanyu because of Pooh. Obviously only Patrick Chan can be admired on account of his skating :rolleyes:

    Yours is exactly the sort of comment that will convince nobody.

    Why do non-fans need ubers to tell them what's an appropriate way to discuss someone? :confused:

    In fact, I did not tell fans what threads to hang out in. I told fans who are unwilling to accept opposing viewpoints to stick with fellow fans.
     
  25. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I should have written this differently. When a slew of tougher elements are added to his programs Abbott is not able to carrry the performance technically. This may be a mental or a physical problem but it sure affects his performance. I have only seen him live in the last three years so am not talking about his heyday when I only saw him on the TV.
     
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Welcome to your impressions as well, Eyre, of course. :) Figure skating is subjective after all. IMO, Chan moves smoothly and elegantly over the ice but with studied, and not very natural artistry. IOW, his cool speed and mastery of blade seems to enhance the view that he is very good musically and artistically. Definitely Chan's presentation skills have improved under the tutelage of Buttle and Kathy Johnson.

    Again, you too are welcome to your views and to your misinterpretations of my views. ;) I don't think Dai Takahashi is a musicality God and he's not my favorite male figure skater either, but I am a Dai fan and I admire him tremendously. In fact, Dai is a superb athlete and a charismatic skater who has continuously soaked up learning experiences and has consistently challenged himself to grow as a person and a skater to the enjoyment and pleasure of non-discriminatory, non-Chan obsessed skating fans around the world. :)

    ETA:

    Dai is also most definitely a gracious sportsman who is a wonderful role model and representative for the sport of figure skating. In all these aspects, the same can not be said of Patrick Chan, no matter how PC's fans and ISU judges might desire to spin it.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  27. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    I was trying to link the skaters's skating with their off ice persona, just like some people have already explained well earlier in this thread.;)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  28. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    One could argue that when tougher elements are added, Chan is usually unable to carry off his performances, either. :shuffle:
     
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Spot on!

    Oh Emdee, seriously? What do you mean by "a slew of tougher elements?" Clearly, Abbott is capable of landing quads, however inconsistently and in recent years infrequently. He also can do the tough elements with transitions, but nerves and injury problems have been his downfall. Under competitive pressure, Abbott has been unable to consistently overcome his nerves (I think he often over-thinks during performances which is a huge no-no for any athlete).

    I'm eager to see what Jeremy's collaboration with Robin Cousins will bring next season. Hopefully, Robin may be able to impart some wisdom to Jeremy also re not over-thinking during performances, and learning how to rise above the pressure.
     
  30. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Chan is falling prey to nerves as well. I think this is what he has said in some interviews.
    He must feel like being in a pressure cooker ... every skater must no doubt... but more so Chan who we burden with our expectations.