Patrick Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ :lol:

    Unwittingly, falling_dance, your "Othello" quote (a kind of pop culture neologasmic adaptation) makes me think of Chan as Othello, and Sam Brown's Hamlet as jettasian or god forbid, trevor, leading the charge against Chan critics, Nice booers, and sundry other innocent bystanders... ;)


    Yes, I think Chan will be fine, even without a full-time technical coach. If he thinks he needs to bring one on board before the end of the season, no problema. It's true that coaches provide athletes with invaluable support in many ways, especially during training sessions, but in the long run, it's up to the competitor to persevere alone on the field of battle.

    Maybe Frank Carroll could have provided Kwan with a few soothing words or sharp commands before she went out to skate her fp at 2002 Olympics, but in the long run she was still the one who ultimately needed to calm her nerves and steady herself.
  2. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    Well, at least neither man is John Wilkes Booth in your scenario.
  3. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

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    trevor, does this mean Patrick Chan likes tacos for sure? :p:shuffle:
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  4. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Well of course. I never said he won, but this seems to be just another early season Chan performance. Nothing to worry about, but I hope that beyond his insane skills (they were clearly obvious five years ago, and I applauded them, so I'm not a hater). I just don't understand why placing last when he clearly was off, whether it was his typical performance, jet lag, emotional issues, whatever is a big deal. He'll clean up enough to fall only a couple of times and win his GPs.

    And for people to call me an idiot is uncalled for. I am not. I am most assuredly not. Keep it klassy, kc.
  5. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    I remember when great skaters didn't fall. Certainly not like Chan does.
  6. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Which great skaters do you refer to? And what exactly is your point in making this statement?
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  7. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    I also miss the days when falls did not occur. When were falls introduced into skating again? Was it the '06-'07 season, or '08-'09??
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  8. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Peter I believe quite correctly you are on the spot. The World champions in 1906/07 did not fall. You are quite the history maven. Kudos.
  9. jenny12

    jenny12 Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Yeah, it must of been '07. Certainly, no great champion has ever fallen before then. For example, the 1992 Olympics in the Ladies competition, did anyone even two foot a jump? ;)
  10. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I first read this to mean 1906/7/8/9 and found that :lol:
  11. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Can you remember Plushenko or Yags falling 3 or 4 times in competition in as many events as Chan does? NO. For someone with his skills he should not be falling as much as he does.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
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  12. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    No, I certainly can't. And they both had the same very difficult transitions into the jumps as Chan does.;)
  13. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    If Chan has difficulty executing his elements because the rest of the program is too difficult, perhaps he should consider fewer/easier transitions as well. It's not as though the only options for a skater are either to have a program with non-stop transitions or to skate something completely empty and void of any meaningful choreography. I'd even argue that sometimes it's better to pay a bit less attention to the TR in order to better express the music.
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I definitely agree that so much falling should be untenable. But Chan fans and apologists will cite his above average SS and CoP as the reason he has prevailed with falls. I say pish posh kibosh! Part of it is the SS, part of it is the skating politics, part of it is the wacky judging system, and part of it is once you are anointed by the judges, you are given lots of leeway to prove and re-prove their faith in you.

    It may ultimately be different for Chan this season in how the judges will view him if he continues to fall. However, once again, his tendency the last several seasons has been to make mistakes early and clean up his act by Canadian Nationals. Of course last season, he didn't skate cleanly at Worlds and still prevailed. That was poor judgment on the judges part. But of course, these days its pretty much a crap shoot, and the men's field in general is crazy deep. All the skaters can and should do is skate their absolute best and make it as difficult for the judges as they possibly can. The problem for the sport, IMO, has been the ISU not putting their foot down re the over-scoring of Chan early in the season (the last couple of seasons) when he faltered. I think the resulting fallout has been detrimental to the sport as well as unhelpful for Chan in the long run.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
  15. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    You could be right, Zemgirl. However, I would be disappointed if he chose to do fewer/easier transitions because even if you take the jumps away from Chan's programs, there's still a lot of interesting stuff left to see and admire. But I am well aware that perceptions differ as to what makes a figure skating program really great.

    aftershocks, somehow I knew you would react to my post. Love Chan or hate Chan, you just can't ignore him.;)
  16. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

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    Personally, I would much rather see skaters attempting more difficult content and falling on occasion, especially early in the season when the programs are new, than watered down programs. These are athletic competitions after all, and it's far more exciting when the skaters are pushing themselves to the limit. Maybe playing it safe could lead to cleaner, albeit more boring programs (though the "cleaner" part is not guaranteed...), but the risk of attempting a complex, more difficult program is well worth it in exchange for those rare skates when the difficulty and execution manage to work together. If you want beautiful, clean skating on a regular basis, limit yourself to ice shows (though even there clean skates aren't guaranteed to occur... ;))
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  17. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't be unprecedented - he's certainly tinkered with some jump entrances over the years. Like I wrote, I'm not advocating that he skate empty programs, but there's plenty of interesting choreo that a skater can do even without packing a program with transitions. Also, I'd rather see a jump performed well than a difficult transition into a badly performed jump (same goes for other elements, but obviously this is more of an issue with jumps).

    Sometimes I feel like transitions are over-emphasized; there are situations where I'd rather see a skater just hold a position or an edge, or do something that might not be difficult but that would fit the music well. The skaters are so busy packing in the content and at times it feels like it's at the expense of the artistic aspects of the performance. Skating is a sport, but it is also an art, and I don't want to see one at the expense of the other.
  18. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    :eek: Wow. You people are OLD!!

    I think I read one post here at FSU that Chan might have better artistry than Plushenko. I will search for that one post and if I find it, I will post a link to it.
  19. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Transitions can express the music too.
  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Heh, heh, actually I was responding to Jammers' posts, and hadn't even seen yours yet when I posted, VarBar. :)

    As far as iggin' PC, no way to do that when TPTB enjoy diggin' him so much, not to mention the scary adoration of jettasian, trevor and the entire Chan gang, plus the devotion and admiration of various and sundry more sane Chan fans and innocent bystanders. As well, how can anyone ig PC SS -- just too uber fab in and of themselves, eh?

    Chan's a good guy and he can skate (understatement). He's so undeserving of all this "CSI treatment." Maybe he can have a post skating career tho' in the horror movie genre ... after all the "scary" experiences his career in skating will have given him. ;)
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
  21. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Of course they can, but sometimes transitions are not the best way to express the music. And when the default is the more transitions the better, that distinction isn't being made.
  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, I think the difference is whether or not the transitions are inserted not just for point-gathering but are put together intuitively and creatively by a great choreographer in collaboration with skater and coach. Probably programs (the choreo and the music) come together better (transitions and all) out on the ice with experimentation and run-throughs to determine how it all will work.

    Also, part of whether transitions "express the music" is going to be determined by whether the skater who performs them has a sensitivity to the music.
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Chan invented the fall. Before that no-one else ever ever fell. That is it. History is written. ;)
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  24. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ No, falling is part of figure skating. It just is. When you learn how to skate, you learn how to fall. The key is in learning how to not fall too often in competition.

    But Chan maybe can take credit after Buttle winning silver at 2005 Worlds for the greatest top level champion skater with most falls per wins. ;)
  25. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I don't see anything wrong with Buttle's silver in 2005. That men's event overall was very sloppy. Yes, Buttle fell twice in the LP on two rotated triples, but even the usually steady skaters like Plushenko and Lysacek (though Evan went through a long streak when he was an awful SP skater) had major mistakes in either the SP or LP. Evan doubled two planned triples (a 3Axel and a 3loop) in the LP and had -GOE on a 3Lutz, as well as the two doubled jumps. I believe if it can be argued that anyone on that podium was held up the most, it was Evan. :rolleyes: Evgeni fell on a 4toe in the SP and then withdrew before the LP. The presentation of Evan and Evgeni don't hold a candle to Jeffrey, especially not in the year 2005. All of Lambiel, Joubert, and Buttle skated brilliantly in the SP and placed top 3 in that order in that phase, but Brian fell mightily in the LP, placing 13th in that phase, leaving the door open for Jeff to move up. Weir rebounded in the LP, but did not have the difficulty (no quad) nor COP friendliness to recover from a hard fall on a 3Axel in the SP. Sandhu singled a 3Axel in the SP and paid dearly for it; a 3rd place LP was not enough to move him into the medals. Lambiel's presentation was terrific in the LP, but I know he would have loved to have a do-over on a few of those flawed jump attempts.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
  26. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    VarBar, aftershocks do lurv Chan. Where Chan is, aftershocks will be there. AS is one of those you can count on. .:p

    Ouch... the secret is out, JapanFan. :D
  27. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I beg to differ spikydurian. It's just that because I'm not one of Chan's diehard ubers, anything I can and will say about the wunderkind will always be held against me, even a kind word here and there. :p

    In any case, you must mean, "Wherever Chan is mentioned on FSU, aftershocks may tend to follow, except for idolatrous uber thread." Sometimes aftershocks don't appear at all where Chan is mentioned. And that's a fact. As well, Chan’s impact on the sport has been quite earth-shattering on its own, without my two cent-quakes showing up anywhere near his vicinity.


    ETA:

    I do see something wrong with Buttle's silver in 2005, but it's not the most controversial result ever in fs. And I thought Buttle was excellent at 2008 Worlds with no falls and a much improved 3-Axel.

    Re Evan, ITA.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  28. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Ummm do you realise when people are being sarcastic? :shuffle:
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Of course, Aussie Willy. I understood you were being sarcastic mostly, as well as since you appreciate Chan's skating, protective.

    Sarcasm: sharp or cutting expression or remark, usually conveyed through irony or understatement.

    Pardon me for responding with a bit of seriousness and a bit of flippant truth. :)
  30. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Don't like the sarcasm here. Reminds me of Chan's comments about other skaters before the 2010 Olympics. It's like someone in 2002 mocking those skaters in early 90s could only do triples. It showed a lack of logical thinking skills and a proper respect to those predecessors.
    You can't deny that skaters nowadays benefit greatly from more modern training methods, and more mature techniques. It's easier for young skaters to learn quads and other stuff now. But these are based on the achivements of all those former skaters. Each person's talent may varied, but still Chan really did not learn all his skills out of nothing.
    We can compare 2002 olympics with 1998's, look how much they improved, both choreography and jumps! It's been 10 years now, it is time for young skaters to do more difficult programs and at the same time land beautiful quads. It's just the natural process of developing. And it's just because they are still not good enough, old gun like Plushenko still can compete against them. Look at Stojko, he landed two quads in 2002 oly when he's 29, both in combinations, but just had no any chance to win anything.
  31. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    So - to sum up this thread
    Chan fell a bunch of times at an early season competition.

    This means one or more of the following:
    1/ This is pretty much his usual. The dude falls all the time. Before him skaters didn't really fall - at least not this much - if they were any good.
    2/ This is pretty much his usual for early in the season. He always adds difficulty each year and this year there is more to get adjusted to seeing as he has 2 new programs as well as a new choreographer and a new coaching situation
    3/ DANGER DANGER! This is the sign of what is to come with Chan's new coaching situation - or lack of coaching situation. Leaving Krall is a disaster and his jumps will be gone. How can he think a dancer can coach him?
    4/ Chan's girlfriend is distracting him. If he stopped having a social life - things would get better.
    5/ Chan has too many transitions. If he made his program simpler - the jumps would be more do-able.

    In addition to sum up the points made

    We hate Patrick Chan. Who does he think he is? How dare he get good marks when he falls? It is so annoying that he gets good marks when he falls. I hate falling. I hate when people who fall win - especially if their name is Chan.

    But he lost here. He came last.

    So what if he lost here because he fell here? That is beside the point. He's won before with falls. Did we mention that skaters shouldn't fall and that it annoys us when fallers (especially those named Chan) get good marks and finish ahead of other people we like?

    You do realize that other things get marked in a program besides jumps right?

    Yes - but the only thing Chan has that is good in PCS is skating skills - and even those marks should not be high when he falls. If a skater falls several times in the program clearly his skating skills are really terrible. Have we mentioned how bad falling is? Falls make us wrathful! Oh and btw - Chan is not musical at all and he is only made less musical because of all those transitions that he does. Which only make him fall anyhow.

    Down with falling! Down with Chan! The soulless, arrogant, person who has single-handedly ruined skating while hypnotizing the judges into a stupour.

    That is all. Rant off.
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  32. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

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  33. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Well-Known Member

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    What Really said.
  34. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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    What DaveRocks said.
  35. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    What alilou said.
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  36. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Well, good luck with that. Finding that one deluded post will be like looking for needle in a haystack.
  37. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I do believe the goal is to skate a difficult program clean with clean jumps, lots of transitions, and high level footwork.

    Oh, but I forgot: Patrick and his coach or choreographer actually design programs to include multiple falls. Patrick falls on cue in practice and when he does his run-throughs. When he actually does land everything in a program, it's because he forgot to fall.

    Patrick's current dream is to win the OGM with a four-fall program and he is secretly meeting with :sekret: and preparing :bribe: to figure out just how he is going to do that, points wise, and make sure it happens.
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  38. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    You're so brave to expose such a sordid truth!

    I think there can be other goals and criteria by which to judge a successful program, and I'm not a fan of the current emphasis on transitions, whether skated by Patrick Chan or by anyone else. To me they are a means of making a program more interesting rather than a goal in and of themselves. But others, of course, are welcome to disagree.
  39. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: Forget McDonalds, his next endorsement will be for these:
    http://shoprainbo.com/se-ku-competition-protech-padded-shorts.html#.UHkKwq7G_Kc
  40. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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