Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Oct 7, 2012.
The least we(?) Chan fans can do is admit that he should've finished seventh at the Japan Open.
Oh I'm with ya. Nothing memorable about that program although I do appreciate Patrick's body control and musicality. I consider this to be premium department store music. Meh.
No, as The Accordion already answered in the previous page, Buttle did "Elegy", the exhibition-turned-into-SP, for Chan. Both LP programs are choreographed by Wilson. Buttle and Wilson have been working together exclusively since 1999. So Buttle may have handled his LP program from his old choreographer with more ease, which is not the case with Chan.
In my opinion, it's too early to give out the final verdict for Chan's LP. I'd rather wait until he could sort out the jump timing issues with the new program and extract the full potential of it.
Really? I thought he should have finished 10th.
You're right. Wanda Beazel, the Candystand on Ice girl, and Mao's dog Aero all turned in better performances.
Yep, but don't forget, none of them have Chan's SS.
Chan has too much good technique at his disposal from the ground up to be falling apart like this unless it is a training issue, which, in this case, could be a coaching issue.
Superb syncopation falling_dance
Wanda Beazel's skating skills are amazing. The fact that she could stand up at all really set her apart from any other skaters.
Don't knock down Aero's skills, either. That dog has talent.
I don't mind high PCS (within reason) if the mistakes are on the elements rather than in the rest of the program; one can show good skating skills, IN, etc. even with mistakes. If the mistakes are on transitional moves, or the skater lets falls and problems with the elements affect the rest of the program, that's another matter.
That said, I didn't enjoy watching Chan making so many mistakes, so I gave up about halfway through. I'll give the LP another shot when he skates it better.
Maybe Chan and his 'effing boring program' will stop winning and leave the top of podiums to skaters whose programs you and people find exciting to watch. Chan placing last at JO is a promising start in that direction, isn't it?
That's why I told someone that Patrick Chan, in his performance at China's ShenZhen Window of the World Show, would probably be his best, for a long stretch.
Personal living/ life style, evidenced by his new constant companion, is sapping strength from him, too bad, that new constant companion is a close relative of his coach.
What can someone who cares about Patrick do about his personal lifestyle? except wringing our hands, shaking our heads. Even Skate Canada can't do anything except focus their attention on another Canadian skater.
Who are you to make such statements/judgements?
So yeah as I was saying, training with somebody who knows nothing about actual skating is not probably the best idea.
I mean as a supporting coach, great. But you want to have a primary coach who actually knows how blades are used.
Deductions are cumulative.
You get -3 for a fall.
In case of Brown, you get -3 for the two-footed landing plus at least -1 for the underrotation so you end up with at least -4 deducted.
I wouldn't go to the conclusion that his meltdown is indicative of a coaching problem just yet. Patrick had all off season to train with the new coaching team, if he had problems landing his stuff in practice I'd expect Team Chan or Skate Canada would make adjustments to his training team already.
I would start to get worried if he bombs Skate Canada too though...
I was the one fan of Patrick, who spend RMB200,000, plus tons of time and dedication to bring Patrick to his home country and area, to perform in front of thousands of worshipping fans, last April, right after the Group Championship, in Tokyo, where he got second from Takahashi, for the first time, in the 2011/2012 season.
He was travelling with his mom, Coach Johnson and her daughter Tess, whom I met at HongKong airport. A few days later, I accompanied them, in rental maxivan, to ShenZhen.
In two days and nights, I talked in length and depth to his Mom, Karen and to aunt, Karen elder sister, who actually served as his coach's replacement, in ShenZhen, as Johnson did not join Patrick at his show there. Then I learned of Patrick's obsession with Tess, unstandable from a 21 year old hormone loaded male athelete. But Fatal for his trade and stature. His mom and aunt told me, that Patrick threatened to quit skating altogether, two weeks before the Nice World Championship, until his parents/coach Krall allowed Tess to join him. That was the reason why he was wobbly, and fell twice at Nice. His mom didn't like the pairing of Patrick/Tess either, and hs aunt predicted that his nephew would fall flat on his face, if he continues with that girl, that closely, 24 hours, affected by her, in everyway.
^ This is really too detailed and personal. You should delete it and send it pm (private message).
Patrick's dad and mom are ordinary people, and dedicated their whole adult life to nurturing their only son, to success, unthinkable and unheard of, for a Chinese Canadian. I happened to be living in same city as Patrick's dad, Toronto, years ago, and got Lewis' agreement to let his talented son, (who stood a very good chance to get the first Canadian skating Olympic gold, in Sochi 2013) to make his wish come true, (when he blurted out his blunder, and got clobbered by mainstream local media, for wanting to skate for/in his ancestral land) by having his own show there. Previously he had been just one of attractions in shows sponsored by US cosmetic pyramid sale Company, formerly known as Avon, in Beijing/Shanghai. No sponsors were willing to support the proposed show, though, even Canadian/asian marketing firms said no to our show. Luckily, the ShenZhen Ice Arena people slashed their rental fees enough to make it financially feasible for me to bring the greatest Chinese Canadian skater ever to perform in his ancestral land. Just imagine the market value of that, in the world's second largest economy, and booming with new millionaires, rising affluence........Patrick was good, and articulate, even in Cantonese dialect, which he learned from his mom and relatives.
Well if this is true, it certainly explains the lesser role Chan wanted Krall to play in his coaching.
His JO skate was......embarrassing. I think it's crazy that he does not actually have a skating/technical coach. What the heck does Kathy Johnson know about quads and 3As?
We'll see how he does at SC and the restoftheseason. I used to think this was his "mo"....bombing early in the season only to peak later at the right time. It's time though, with no actual coach I'm not so sure. I think it could be a rough year for Chan.
I was saddened, in sorrow, to see our idol, to blunder, fall and came last a few days ago in Tokyo. I was going, as usual to offer congratulations to his dad, like last year, when he was unbeatable, for whole season.
It is not the coaching alone, I an nurturing a 41/2 year old girl, doing ISI Level One Freestyle moves and show, (who skated her number before Patrick, in his ShenZhen extravaganza), and previously, had nurtured my elder daughter, in her heyday, to become a World Championship level Competition swimmer.
If you don't dedicate your strength to your sports, and waste it away at something unrelated, you are digging your own grave, competition wise.
Karen complained about this to Johnson, before, about letting her daughter to become the 24 hour companion of the skating champion. But she told me, the dancer coach scolded/cowered her into submission.
I did send email to Lewis, and darkly warned of competitors wanting to see an end to Patrick's success, and therefore he better seek a way out of this sorry predicament. But Karen still believes in Johnson's dancer input to Patrick's moves......Adieu Patrick, hope you are reading my postings.
Did I miss a change in the GOE rules? Deductions are cumulative, but once you hit -3 GOE that's the most that can be deducted isn't it?
To "trevor" - as an adult you should have the discretion and maturity to keep the personal stuff about someone else to yourself. Patrick's team made an unwitting error by letting someone with such poor judgement into their confidence.
Hope you're okay, jettasian. I had to read your post a few times ... uh, speaking of "pathetic desperation!" Whew, I wish Chan freedom from the pressure of winning all the time with great programs or not so great programs, with falls and not falls, and kinda falls. He's probably relieved his scores fairly reflect that he just had one too many falls this time. I wish him some relief too from the weight of expectations from fans like yourself.
Jeez, its still early in the season. Chan has for the last several seasons usually gotten off to a slow start and ended with a bang. I'm certain the judges still love him. But let's be honest, the men's field is very deep and everyone is stepping up their game. However, with humongous, unbeatable SS and quads in his arsenal, the support of his fed, countrymen and an enormous gang of fans, I doubt Chan is overly worried about "CSI treatment" from bold critics. Love that term for fs: "CSI treatment" -- you opened up a can of worms. And face it, any skater at the top or near the top is going to be subject to "CSI treatment" from ISU judges, technical specialists, overwrought fans, critical non-fans, exacting coaches, whatever.
With fans like yourself, jettasian, these days even Chan's most ardent critics measure their words, often bending over backwards to be fair.
OMG, falling_dance, there needs to be a new "laughing hysterically" icon. Thanks so much for the good humor. I never thought I'd find something to genuinely laugh so hard about in a fun and friendly way in a Patrick Chan thread. No, jettasian, I'm not laughing at Patrick.
Love that "Sassy slappability" falling_dance! I can see all the men now including that move in their routines, not that we haven't seen it before. But maybe it might become a requirement. Heh heh ... I can see Morosov incorporating butt slaps into his choreo for Amodio.
What about "Superb syncopation falling down!"
The ISU could put together judges training clips demonstrating falling technique: "This is what we want to see when skaters fall: Rhythm and Rebound! And THIS is what we do not what to see: Clumsy lack of flow, and lazy recovery!"
Wow, trevor -- please lighten up and allow Patrick Chan to live his own life, make his own mistakes, enjoy young love, and achieve glory if its in the cards, without all this heavy, ridiculous pressure, fawning and expectations that to me are looking like a horror story written, directed and produced by and starring his OTT fans gone wild. Let Patrick Chan breathe. Take off the shackles. Your comments make me feel sorry for Patrick, almost to the point where I might start rooting for him. I doubt that was your strategic intention, but if so, it may have just worked.
It will NOT be the end of the world if Patrick Chan never wins another competition. Believe me, Chan will win another competition. He may not win Olympic gold, but he along with other top flight skaters are definitely aiming for Sochi gold, or at the least aiming to reach the Olympic podium. Obviously, Patrick has more than an excellent chance to be on the top of that podium. Why do you have to desperately base your hopes on and schedule your life around that possibility? Not every skater or every person can win all the time. Losing is often necessary for winning to be achieved. I would be happy to see Dai Takahashi or Jeremy Abbott win Olympic gold, or at the least grace the Olympic podium, but if none of that happens, I'm not going to commit hari-kari (Hara-kiri).
Over the years I have heard a lot of reasons why a skater does not do well in a competition, injury, illness, personal or family problems, financial, coaching change, etc. "Girlfriend" is a first for me.
BOT: It was bad competition for Patrick but he is an excellent skater with first class skills
and I really do not expect to see a repeat of what happened in JO.
Aftershocks.... I never thought the day would come when I agreed with you!
May be new to skating, but the business of questioning a significant other's impact on an athlete is nothing new.
As for Patrick...I guess I never read close enough. I had thought that when people talked about Johnson as a dance coach, I was under the impression that meant ICE dance. I just googled a bit and found out otherwise. Sorry, I have to ask, what is the thought process in that choice of primary coach? I can see having her as a resource for developing movement and artistry above the blades (something I have long thought Chan needs), but as a primary coach????
Who remains on his team to address technical issues? I would think they would want a pair of eyes looking at why jumps basically eluded him for an entire free skate. It could be an off day, but who is there to determine if it is more than that? And I'm really asking. Who will do that?
There have been others that have impacted skaters careers. Averbukh famously dumped Annissina to dance with his girlfriend, Lobacheva, and Ulanov dumped Rodnina to skate with his. Carron dumped Jost, because his girlfriend, Gusmeroli, insisted that their programs be more chaste than the Shibutanis', to skate with her boyfriend.
Right, PDilemma, Kathy Johnson has worked with a number of figure skaters in a dance/ movement/ artistic expression capacity, most notably with Matt Savoie and Jeremy Abbott. Her daughter Tess is a young designer who was a winner on an episode of the fashion design reality show, 24-hour Catwalk. Tess designed Jeremy Abbott's sp costume for 2008 - 2009 season.
I haven't been following Patrick Chan news that closely, but I thought he simply hadn't chosen a new coach to work with, but had decided to work mainly with Kathy as a mentor, advisor and dance/ artistic skills coach. Do we know for sure that Patrick isn't receiving technical advice on the side in lieu of hiring a full time technical coach? And then he perhaps has decided to trust his own technical knowledge and judgment while focusing on working with Kathy mainly to strengthen his artistry? If Kathy Johnson has been named his primary coach, then I guess I missed the announcement. Even if it hasn't been officially reported, Patrick likely is receiving technical advice from others and not expecting that so much from Kathy.
As far as jumps basically eluding Chan this early in the season, it's not as if it's never happened to him before. IMO, there are myriad reasons for skaters falling a lot during a program, including: pressure and nerves, after the first fall more nerves and a growing lack of confidence, rushing and lack of timing, bad ice, bad mood, lack of training and endurance, getting adjusted to a new program, unknown skate boot problems, unknown or known injury problems, thinking too much, poor jump layout, lousy warm-up or leaving everything in the warm-up, personal off-ice problems, coach fiddling too much with jump technique, AND MAYBE "poor flow" and "lack of sureness," but of course those last two don't apply to most of today's top competitors.
I doubt Chan has that much to worry about seriously, aside from the KING KONG level of expectations from some of his really scary fans.
Even beyond these examples, I'm sure there are skaters who have been affected at times by relationship issues - they're human, after all - and perhaps some poor performances can be explained by it; Oda at 2010 Worlds comes to mind. But I imagine most of them choose to keep such things to themselves.
If Patrick Chan is in a similar situation, that's his business, not his fans'. Though I'm sure that is disappointing to Trevor.
I completely understand this question/concern. But sometimes when I hear things like about Dornbush apparently having something completely wrong with his blade/boot last season that (his team says) affected him, sometimes I wonder why no one recognized a problem like this?
Chan is skating in Colorado Springs, so he has access to hiring secondary coaches for technical help if he chooses. However, if his problems are motivational there is only so much a coach can do to help a pupil.
Sure: we only hear about them when they're made public. Oda is a great example of one we did hear about, and Weir wrote about how his relationship with another skater affected his skating.
^^ Yes, yes. All of the above are not unreasonable questions, concerns, comments. Interesting examples from kwanfan1818 re relationships that have impacted skating careers, and unsurprisingly the cases cited mainly involve pairs and ice dance (which generally makes for the relationship factors becoming more public). In any case, skating partnership issues are always difficult and impacting, even when love/ jealousy/ significant others problems are not involved.
Clearly tho' all athletes have emotional/ relationship issues of all kinds (not to mention other life issues) that can and will impact their careers and performances in different ways: Mao Asada and Joannie Rochette lost their mothers (Angela Nikidinov was injured and her mother was killed in a tragic traffic accident), Greg Louganis competed victoriously at the Olympics after learning he was HIV-positive, not to mention overcoming hitting his head on the diving board, Dan Jansen struggled with competing at the Olympics after his sister died of cancer.
If all Patrick Chan has to worry about is being in love, I say kudos! Being in love can be a good thing and/ or it can be distracting. Unfortunately, judging by some of the comments of fans in this thread, love is apparently the least of Patrick's problems. If Patrick can overcome his Friday the 13th Freddy-like fans, and relieve some of the weight and pressure of expectations from his parents, Canadian fed, Chan gang, et al, maybe he'll be able to breathe and maintain more consistency on his jumps. Or, maybe not, and maybe none of this matters anyway!
The logic is going over my head. Not having a tech coach is going to have a greater impact on a figure skater's performance than having a girlfriend. There are married skaters, romantically involved skaters, and skaters with long-term significant others who've competed and won, or skated their very best. What makes Patrick Chan a Sampson to Tess Johnson's Delilah? That's out of some Victorian novel. Romance doesn't actually and literally sap someone's strength or the fans of Davis & White better get on him about Tanith. They live together!
The histrionics seem misplaced for an athlete who is apparently missing a key element on his coaching team. Bring in a tech element expert and he can keep his girlfriend.
I think the issue on his part is combating boredom and keeping his focus. None of this is new, either: he talked about winning in Vancouver and quitting, he's talked about losing motivation, and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a 24x7 Chan Watch at Skate Canada that is a pile of nerves about whether he'll make it to Sochi in one piece.
What I'm genuinely curious about is who's going to stand at the boards with Patrick at internationals? Kathy Johnson doesn't have the proper credentials, that's why Joanne McLeod was with Patrick at the World Team Trophy this past spring.
Couple of other things not mentioned
This is the first season Patrick has had to learn 2 new programs. Anyone can scoff and say skaters do that all the time, but it has not been Patrick's rhythm to do that and it is an adjustment.
Plus he's adjusting to a new coaching situation.
Plus for the first time in forever (?) he's adjusting to new choreographers. He mentioned in an article that David Wilson has him moving in new ways that he's taking some time to get used to. It's not the same for him as working in a very familiar way with Lori Nicol.
I'll try to find the article.
I think you have hit the nail on the head so to speak. IMHO a very large and often undervalued part of being truly exceptional at something is the ability to stick to the grind even when it gets to be drag. We talk a lot on FSU about skaters who don't live up to their "talent," and I think that part of "talent" is the ability to deal with the daily grind of practice, and the sacrifices required to practice a perform at one's best. When you think about all the things that have to go right in order to perform at the level required to win, it shouldn't be surprising that athletes often have bad days or that the winner ends up being the best of the worst rather than perfection on ice. Patrick is a young guy who has given most of his life to figure skating. That means lots of sleep, healthy food, not a lot of alcohol, no late night parties, no extended vacations, etc etc. We've seen this with other skaters: Johnny, Mirai, Nicole B, Tonya H etc who have gone through fazes where they just couldn't, for whatever reason, keep their noses to the grindstone.
It is quite possible that Patrick is having a difficult time keeping up his training schedule. He may be realizing there are other parts of his life he wants to explore. Who knows? Maybe if there were some young guns nipping at his heels for the Canadian title he would feel a bit of pressure to perform. Unfortunately, there are none so as long as he gets his act together by March - which may seem a long way off - he will be fine.
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