Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Oct 7, 2012.
Did Chan even fall 4 times last season or his fall counts are accumulative?
So a fully rotated quad with a fall shouldn't score more that a properly landed double toe? Is that what you're saying?
It used to be different, but then all the guys stopped trying quads because it wasn't worth the risk.
So people (Most vocally Plushenko) complained how the sport was going backwards and no-one should win without a quad.
So they changed the rules to encourage the skaters to take the risk.
Now there's complaints again like yours that the rules should be tougher.
Round and round the mulberry bush we go.
In which case, Chan would always lose.
No, when he falls he often beats skaters who were better or stayed on their feet. Which is wrong. Skate Canada 2010 anybody? No way should he have even come top 5 with those performances. And yet he won.
But he still fell, which is the worst outcome for a jump, far worse than UR.
Judges rewarding him for having great skating skill, great choreo, great transitions in and out of the jumps, great speed, commanding the ice, the flows...
Dai was a very popular skater. Fans boo because their fave didn't win. And it's very typical and childish act. Cry foul when their fave didn't win.
Apparently only you think so.
The scoring system, created by coaches/tech specialists apparently think UR is worse than a fall on a fully-rotated jump. But what do they know?
Skate Canada 2011, I remember it because I was in the audience. He wasn't great, he had 2 falls, but he won by 4-5(?) points, because Dai and Fernendez also made many mistakes. But to the Chan haters, Chan still won with many mistakes, without admitting that OTHERS also made mistakes.
A fully rotated fall is better an UR jump.
No, that's not what I'm saying. 2T /=/ 4T. But 4T< should be more than 4T fall. Even 4T two-foot should be more than 4T fall.
For a given jump (say, 3F), there should be NO WAY a fall can score better than other alternatives (two-footed, step-out, rotation, UR, etc, anything that means the landing was upright).
It's not like it's the first year that Chan starts with multiple falls. His Free program is very good, and Patrick is expressive in it. If he wanted to work on his artistic side, he is doing it, and quite successfully. I imagine he'll be balancing the new choreo with the jumps as the year progresses, and unease is premature.
There are also other factors, such as difficult entrance, transition in/out of jump. You do know that right?
As Kurt Browning said, most skaters would just skate straight before the quad. Chan's quads always have no, or little preparation before it.
Great skating skill? Any skater at that level has great skating skills. Great choreo? He doesn't even remotely use the music. Great transitions? His programs look cluttered and ridiculous, I'm fairly sure that's not the point of transitions. Great speed? That he can't control.
Chan is not the god of figure skating. The god of figure falling, maybe.
No, the fans booed because they had just seen a clearly inferior performance come out on top. Fans booed because they didn't understand how Chan could fall on his backside and still be called World Champion.
No, Skate Canada 2010, where Chan fell four times across both programs (3 falls in the SP and 1 in the LP IIRC) and still won ahead of a much cleaner Oda and others.
Regardless of mistakes that others made, for him to win that competition was a joke.
According to you, which, thankfully, is incorrect. You can continue repeating yourself and using CAPS to try to turn myth into truth, but it won't change the rules.
You keep saying it's a joke when Chan wins a competition. Learn the rules.
It's painfully clear you hate Chan for some reason. Please move on. Your incessant rambling is getting tiring.
It is obvious based on some posters' past posts (again and again), they will never be happy with whatever outcomes because they just want it THEIR WAY.
If he falls and lose, his falls should be deducted more, if he falls and wins, his falls should be deducted more. Not that marks weren't deducted from his falls ... it's just the outcome weren't what they WANT.
Not what bek thinks they should be judged on.
Still, Performance/Execution has to be the most unfortunate description in the judging system.
All thinks being equal -- i.e., all of the bullet points except the landing result in the same GOE start value and the quality of all of the other elements of the jump are the same -- a 4T< (7.2 base) is worth more than a 4T with fall (6.3), when the fall deduction is included.
All things being equal, a 4T with a two-foot (7.3) is worth more than a 4T two-foot (6.3), when the fall deduction is included.
A jump that is under-rotated has a better chance of having a greater start GOE start value than a jump with a fall, because the under-rotation doesn't have to impact the chance to earn the landing bullet point.
^^^^^Thanks for some detail
Could you explain the 2foot thing again. I'm assuming you mean a 4T 2ft (7.3) is worth more than a 4T 2ft with a fall (6.3)
I meant to write "is worth more than a 4T with a fall (6.3).". Thanks for the correction.
Okay why are his components ridiculous?
Any skater would die to have skating skills like Chan. He is the skater's skater. They are some of the best I have ever seen. Effortlessness, fantastic flow and glide, no friction between the ice and the blade, speed, full use of the blade from heel to toe and he can turn on a dime, along with complexity done at incredible speed.
Because then the only component scores of his that should be high are SS and Transitions. ITA his Choreo/ IN are bland.
Falls disrupt the flow of a program, if there are falls it effects the components. Apparently not for Chan though. That's all misskarne was getting at. And yes, IMO falls should always be -3 (unless the skater lands a very good jump and then just slips at the end, in which case a -2 could be given), while UR and 2fts should be -2.
Although I still think Chan has average musicality (which is made up by his godlike SS & ballet training experience), I think that his PCS at this JO was underscored surprisingly.
In a word, no.
If I understood you correctly, you think Chan should have scored higher on the PCS than he did, right? Well, he actually scored a bit higher than at last year's JO even though he fell 4 times at this Japan Open, didn't have any jump combination in his program at all as opposed to two cleanly landed jump combos last year of which one was a 4T/3T, he doubled the 3F and singled the 2A. All in all, I do think Chan can be happy with the PC score he got considering.
Okay but please try to keep in mind that what's true for some is not true for others. I for one never found Chan bland or boring.
somewhat underscored when compare with other skaters, not last year's result.
[TSS] TES - PCS┃SS - TR - PE - CH - IN
1 TAKAHASHI [172.06] 81.00 - 91.06┃9.11 - 8.71 - 9.21 - 9.25 - 9.25
2 KOZUKA [165.08] 83.06 - 83.02┃8.54 - 8.18 - 8.32 - 8.29 - 8.18
3 BUTTLE [160.86] 72.66 - 88.20┃8.71 - 8.64 - 8.86 - 8.89 - 9.00
4 PLUSHENKO [156.21] 71.63 - 85.58┃8.75 - 7.96 - 8.68 - 8.54 - 8.86
5 BREZINA [151.53] 71.45 - 80.08┃8.25 - 7.61 - 8.07 - 8.00 - 8.11
6 CHAN [137.42] 57.00 - 84.42┃8.61 - 8.57 - 8.07 - 8.57 - 8.39
<snort> "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PeterG again."
and this ..
IMO is what Patrick is going through right now. He is by nature an easy going lad, and he needs to find the intrinsic drive and motivation to want to continue. I don't know his personal circumstances but sometimes in life, we go through phases and bumps where we re-evaluate our priorities given present circumstances.
The logic here appears to be very flawed.
If Brown's 3axel was not UR-ed and all he did was land the jump on 2 feet (i.e. not just having free foot brush the ice), he would probably have -2s or some -3s and would have scored more than Chan did with a fall on a fully rotated 3axel (straight -3s). The 2 footing mistake itself is not more harshly punished than a fall. It's the UR that affected the base value.
If you have a problem with how the current system punishes mistakes, you need to keep in mind that the rules apply uniformly to everyone, not just preferentially to benefit Chan.
From experience, most non falls that get -3s across the board are those that have more than 1 mistake at the same time (i.e. heavy two footed and stepped out, edge call and hand down with weight shift, etc).
The thing about UR is that it fundamentally changes the merit / difficulty (hence value) of the jump and thus cannot be compared with other mistakes. If you would just understand this part, you would realize that a fall on a rotated jump is worth more than a fall on a UR-ed jump, but a hand down or a lesser mistake on a rotated jump is worth more than a fall on the same rotated jump.
Hmm. Perhaps you are not worth a rational discussion afterall.
And I am glad they do because otherwise you will have skaters being forced to rotate "triples" before they are ready. Remember the Olympic Ladies Champion from Salt Lake City?
To me anyways, URs signify bad technique, quality or control much more than falls do. Being able to reduce base values of UR-ed jumps is the single best idea under COP.
This user has the official ISU video explanations about what each program component means.
Compare his PCS from last season to those he got at this competition.
I think many people do not (or refuses to) understand that Chan is just a skater who happens to fit a lot of criteria for PCS and therefore receives high PCS when he skates reasonably well. He gets lower PCS when he makes mistakes (which he should), but overall the PCS is still justifiably quite high when he makes mistakes because his starting level is high.
Forget about Chan. If skater ABC is so out of this world fantastic that he deserves a 10 for each program component, but makes a mistake or two, do you think a 9.5 for each component is still warranted? Or 9.25? It's a clear reduction, but it's still very strong PCS.
Thanks for clarifying. Well maybe Chan wasn't underscored but other skaters got higher scores than they actually deserved. And I'd say it's not Chan who should worry about his PCS but Kozuka or Plushenko. Now seriously, I do think that the absence of a jump combination hurt Patrick's PCS quite a bit in the judges' eyes.
Your post just shows either you are just ignorant about skating or your hatred toward a skater that blind your judgement.
Chan is known to have one of the best, if not the best, skating skill out there today. Oh he uses his music to skate, or else, his jumps or other movement would not hit the music mark. Yes, he has great transitions through out his programs, very difficult too. He has great control of his speed. Nobody said Chan is a skating God. But people know what a great figure skater he is.
Despite the falls, his 2 quads and 1 axel are enough. He won because others didn't skate well either.
Wait, so what do you mean regardless of mistakes that others made? So are you saying only Chan's mistakes are matter, but not the others??