Patrick Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Great skating skill? Any skater at that level has great skating skills. Great choreo? He doesn't even remotely use the music. Great transitions? His programs look cluttered and ridiculous, I'm fairly sure that's not the point of transitions. Great speed? That he can't control.

    Chan is not the god of figure skating. The god of figure falling, maybe.

    No, the fans booed because they had just seen a clearly inferior performance come out on top. Fans booed because they didn't understand how Chan could fall on his backside and still be called World Champion.

    No, Skate Canada 2010, where Chan fell four times across both programs (3 falls in the SP and 1 in the LP IIRC) and still won ahead of a much cleaner Oda and others.

    Regardless of mistakes that others made, for him to win that competition was a joke.
  2. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Well-Known Member

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    According to you, which, thankfully, is incorrect. You can continue repeating yourself and using CAPS to try to turn myth into truth, but it won't change the rules.

    You keep saying it's a joke when Chan wins a competition. Learn the rules.

    It's painfully clear you hate Chan for some reason. Please move on. Your incessant rambling is getting tiring.
  3. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    It is obvious based on some posters' past posts (again and again), they will never be happy with whatever outcomes because they just want it THEIR WAY.
    If he falls and lose, his falls should be deducted more, if he falls and wins, his falls should be deducted more. Not that marks weren't deducted from his falls ... it's just the outcome weren't what they WANT.:rolleyes:
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Not what bek thinks they should be judged on.

    Still, Performance/Execution has to be the most unfortunate description in the judging system.


    All thinks being equal -- i.e., all of the bullet points except the landing result in the same GOE start value and the quality of all of the other elements of the jump are the same -- a 4T< (7.2 base) is worth more than a 4T with fall (6.3), when the fall deduction is included.

    All things being equal, a 4T with a two-foot (7.3) is worth more than a 4T two-foot (6.3), when the fall deduction is included.

    A jump that is under-rotated has a better chance of having a greater start GOE start value than a jump with a fall, because the under-rotation doesn't have to impact the chance to earn the landing bullet point.
  5. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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    ^^^^^Thanks for some detail

    Could you explain the 2foot thing again. I'm assuming you mean a 4T 2ft (7.3) is worth more than a 4T 2ft with a fall (6.3)
  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I meant to write "is worth more than a 4T with a fall (6.3).". Thanks for the correction. :)
  7. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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    Your welcome :)
  8. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Okay why are his components ridiculous?

    Any skater would die to have skating skills like Chan. He is the skater's skater. They are some of the best I have ever seen. Effortlessness, fantastic flow and glide, no friction between the ice and the blade, speed, full use of the blade from heel to toe and he can turn on a dime, along with complexity done at incredible speed.
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  9. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Because then the only component scores of his that should be high are SS and Transitions. ITA his Choreo/ IN are bland.

    Falls disrupt the flow of a program, if there are falls it effects the components. Apparently not for Chan though. That's all misskarne was getting at. And yes, IMO falls should always be -3 (unless the skater lands a very good jump and then just slips at the end, in which case a -2 could be given), while UR and 2fts should be -2.
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  10. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    Although I still think Chan has average musicality (which is made up by his godlike SS & ballet training experience), I think that his PCS at this JO was underscored surprisingly.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  11. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    In a word, no.
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  12. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    If I understood you correctly, you think Chan should have scored higher on the PCS than he did, right? Well, he actually scored a bit higher than at last year's JO even though he fell 4 times at this Japan Open, didn't have any jump combination in his program at all as opposed to two cleanly landed jump combos last year of which one was a 4T/3T, he doubled the 3F and singled the 2A. All in all, I do think Chan can be happy with the PC score he got considering.

    Okay but please try to keep in mind that what's true for some is not true for others. I for one never found Chan bland or boring.:)
  13. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    somewhat underscored when compare with other skaters, not last year's result.


    [TSS] TES - PCS&#9475;SS - TR - PE - CH - IN

    1 TAKAHASHI [172.06] 81.00 - 91.06&#9475;9.11 - 8.71 - 9.21 - 9.25 - 9.25
    2 KOZUKA [165.08] 83.06 - 83.02&#9475;8.54 - 8.18 - 8.32 - 8.29 - 8.18
    3 BUTTLE [160.86] 72.66 - 88.20&#9475;8.71 - 8.64 - 8.86 - 8.89 - 9.00
    4 PLUSHENKO [156.21] 71.63 - 85.58&#9475;8.75 - 7.96 - 8.68 - 8.54 - 8.86
    5 BREZINA [151.53] 71.45 - 80.08&#9475;8.25 - 7.61 - 8.07 - 8.00 - 8.11
    6 CHAN [137.42] 57.00 - 84.42&#9475;8.61 - 8.57 - 8.07 - 8.57 - 8.39
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  14. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    <snort> "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PeterG again."
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  15. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    This
    and this ..
    IMO is what Patrick is going through right now. He is by nature an easy going lad, and he needs to find the intrinsic drive and motivation to want to continue. I don't know his personal circumstances but sometimes in life, we go through phases and bumps where we re-evaluate our priorities given present circumstances.
  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    The logic here appears to be very flawed.

    If Brown's 3axel was not UR-ed and all he did was land the jump on 2 feet (i.e. not just having free foot brush the ice), he would probably have -2s or some -3s and would have scored more than Chan did with a fall on a fully rotated 3axel (straight -3s). The 2 footing mistake itself is not more harshly punished than a fall. It's the UR that affected the base value.

    If you have a problem with how the current system punishes mistakes, you need to keep in mind that the rules apply uniformly to everyone, not just preferentially to benefit Chan.

    From experience, most non falls that get -3s across the board are those that have more than 1 mistake at the same time (i.e. heavy two footed and stepped out, edge call and hand down with weight shift, etc).

    The thing about UR is that it fundamentally changes the merit / difficulty (hence value) of the jump and thus cannot be compared with other mistakes. If you would just understand this part, you would realize that a fall on a rotated jump is worth more than a fall on a UR-ed jump, but a hand down or a lesser mistake on a rotated jump is worth more than a fall on the same rotated jump.

    Hmm. Perhaps you are not worth a rational discussion afterall.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    And I am glad they do because otherwise you will have skaters being forced to rotate "triples" before they are ready. Remember the Olympic Ladies Champion from Salt Lake City?

    To me anyways, URs signify bad technique, quality or control much more than falls do. Being able to reduce base values of UR-ed jumps is the single best idea under COP.
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Here: http://www.youtube.com/user/germann1968/videos?view=0

    This user has the official ISU video explanations about what each program component means.

    Compare his PCS from last season to those he got at this competition.

    I think many people do not (or refuses to) understand that Chan is just a skater who happens to fit a lot of criteria for PCS and therefore receives high PCS when he skates reasonably well. He gets lower PCS when he makes mistakes (which he should), but overall the PCS is still justifiably quite high when he makes mistakes because his starting level is high.

    Forget about Chan. If skater ABC is so out of this world fantastic that he deserves a 10 for each program component, but makes a mistake or two, do you think a 9.5 for each component is still warranted? Or 9.25? It's a clear reduction, but it's still very strong PCS.
  19. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for clarifying. Well maybe Chan wasn't underscored but other skaters got higher scores than they actually deserved.;) And I'd say it's not Chan who should worry about his PCS but Kozuka or Plushenko. Now seriously, I do think that the absence of a jump combination hurt Patrick's PCS quite a bit in the judges' eyes.
  20. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Your post just shows either you are just ignorant about skating or your hatred toward a skater that blind your judgement.

    Chan is known to have one of the best, if not the best, skating skill out there today. Oh he uses his music to skate, or else, his jumps or other movement would not hit the music mark. Yes, he has great transitions through out his programs, very difficult too. He has great control of his speed. Nobody said Chan is a skating God. But people know what a great figure skater he is.


    Despite the falls, his 2 quads and 1 axel are enough. He won because others didn't skate well either.


    Wait, so what do you mean regardless of mistakes that others made? So are you saying only Chan's mistakes are matter, but not the others??
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  21. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Not only that....many skaters FALL on jumps too, not just Chan. But it seems like every time Chan falls, they have to "highlight" it, there, there, he FALLS, he FALLS!!! SO HE MUST NOT WIN!!! I don't see other skaters' marks get CSI treatments like Chan's. It's just pathetic and desperation.
  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. One of the aims of the IJS is to separate the technical from the components and mark them independently. You have to give skaters credit for what they do really well, regardless of the mistakes that might happen on the elements. When you are judging it really is like having a switch in your head which goes "component, component, element, component component, element, etc etc etc". The only component mark you can reasonably ding for poor performance is the Peformance/Execution mark. And that would be because the skater lets the mistakes affect the performance eg posture, expression, energy. If the skater still skaters their socks off regardless of the mistakes, you still have to give them credit for it.

    Totally agree. If you are going to criticise a skater be constructive, not random. Because it is not the skater that people then focus on but yourself.

    Totally agree.
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  23. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    I don't know how much impact Chan's falls had for the TES, but to think that his SS is 4th is just ridiculous! And I must laugh at Dai's predictable over the top arms and facial expressions got him 9s. Yeah, if you want to be "Artistic" you must bring the drama! :rolleyes:
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  24. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Yeah but he didn't have the highest components which according to some is what Chan deserves because he fell. So that must make the nay sayers happy.
  25. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    I thought overscored marks only apply to Chan :eek:
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    This is deja vu all over again. Chan usually has a wake-up call after a substandard outing at the beginning of the season, but, this time, it was earlier than usual because of the Japan Open. So far, he's adjusted, and while a 5th place finish at the Olympics was not what he had hoped for, he's been the gold or silver medalist at Worlds since 2009, which isn't so shabby.
  27. kimkom

    kimkom Two Pot Screamer

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    As is this thread. :lol:

    If we brought Patrick Chan threads from the last few seasons to the top of the forum, the posts (and posters) would be identical. :blah:
  28. ponta1

    ponta1 New Member

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    Especially one extremely over-the-top fan, who says the same thing over and over and over.

    But, back to the topic of this thread, I don't think one bad performance is indicative at all of what's to come. I'm sure Patrick will come back strong in his next competition.
  29. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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    Yes I agree with this, and there is also one OTT hater who says the same thing over and over again.
  30. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I mean, it really is. We have to accept that Patrick Chan with four or five disruptive falls is still better than the lot due to his SS, his "P/E", and the lot. Some of us just want to see a winner who skates cleanly, brings down the house, and has "champion performance" written on it. No, we get that Chan is clearly superior in EVERY other way by an insurmountable level, that he can tank a program yet still win.

    I like Patrick Chan. I wished I had his skills, he really is wonderful. But champions don't fall so much. IMHO.
  31. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: We're up to five falls now! :lol:
  32. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    A rule that discourages an athlete from pushing the limits and encourages them to take a conservative approach will never be implemented, so you can forget that.

    P/E is not about element execution. TES is about element execution. It's all about clarity and variety of movement, spatial awareness, involvement in the program and carriage of the body, mostly. As long as falls don't stop you from executing your non-element movements to any major degree, P/E is not impacted.
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  33. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Okay, but we are clear - Patrick tanked at this year's Japan Open. He didn't win. Right? I mean, he came sixth out of six skaters. We aren't calling that a victory, are we?
  34. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Oh and PS, just watched the program. That may be one of the most effing boring programs I've ever seen from an elite male skater. No wonder his victories are driving people away from watching skating.

    (Don't think those that defend the judges on how they mark Patrick are necessarily Chan ubers.)
  35. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    I was confused by that post, too.

    So now it seems even though the myth that Patrick could win with 4 or more falls has been squashed, Patrick placing last is still not enough to please some people.
  36. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Maybe he shouldn't even have been allowed to enter the competition. You know, because if they let him skate, if he fell he would use his Sekret Kanadian Mind-Altering Powers on the judges and make them overmark him :rolleyes:
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  37. newbatgirl

    newbatgirl New Member

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    I'm going to be branded as a Chan-hater but this LP is not one of my favorite programs of his. It's a little cliched, in my opinion. Even skated with the jumps executed as planned, there's nothing in the music and choreography that seems all that inspiring or interesting.

    I'd love to see what he could do with the program Buttle skated to at the JO, which is ironic because didn't Buttle choreograph the one Chan is using?
  38. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    :lol: We only brand you if you want us to.

    I just watched and tend to agree. The music is not my favourite so it kind of makes it harder to get into it. Although there are parts of it that really connect with the character of the music (step sequence). However his skating skills are really amazing. And it is a new program so it needs a lot more work to make it flow and work with the music.
  39. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Some people will never be happy until his score is in the negative.
  40. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    I am really excited about this new program and I think it shows a new side of, new depth to Chan! I would imagine it will do so even more when he is more used to it/more on. To answer your question Newbatgirl - David Wilson choreographed the long. Jeff Buttle choreographed the short.