Patrick Chan embarks on season with new coach, choreographers and two new programs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 7, 2012.

  1. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Different people have different style. True, Chan may not look well skating to MJ's music because he's more classical and subtle instead of "flashy". I don't see Dai or Jourbert look well for classical either. It's just different style. For some to say that because Chan's not "flashy" enough, he is lack of style is crazy.
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It's a)so not an elements+skating skills competition. There are PCS that cover movement, choreography, musical interpretation, and engagement (however stupidly it's worded.)

    It's not as if Chan's main competition is performing 2A, 3T, 3S, and L1 spins.

    It is possible to appreciate what Chan, and Abbott and Takahashi et al bring to skating.
  3. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Those fans seem to confuse with competition skating and exhibition/show skating.

    All these qualities are NOT enough...cause he didn't make some sad faces, or fling his arms in the air.
  4. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Yes, and Chan has all of those elements as well. It's just some like to think that although he's technically sounded....all of his other elements are not up there to the like of Abbott or Dai.
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    In terms of skating, yes. I was talking about upper body movement.

    Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.

    And yes what you said is exactly my point. Those skaters' programs are somewhat similar because they have a specific style that they feel comfortable with.

    With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.

    It's exceptional skating and his programs tick the boxes for the most part but I just wish his programs had more character and that he was more expressive.

    Also, you really need to chill out. :p
  6. trevor

    trevor New Member

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    He, Patrick, when I saw him in his off season Asian tour, in person, was engaged alright. The dances, in T shirt and shimmering showwear, were all so advanced, smooth, that they left the local spectators, in awe.

    His requirement for proper pre-show preparation is very strict, fully exercised aerobic workouts on jogging machine before the shows, etc. guaranteed a flexible, fluid performance all the time.

    In comparison, I also watch Buttle, Browning, Plushenko and others in later show, and they appear more showy, but without the fluidity and smootness of Chan.
  7. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    There are other skaters who can do that besides Takahashi.

    To each his/her own. Some of us prefer the dramatic and expressive and some prefer the understated. Give me Patrick and Kozuka any time. :)

    We all need to chill out before it gets too hot in here. (Anyway, you are bad Ziggy. You threw THE stone in the hornet's nest. Newton's third law: for every action there's an equal opposite reaction.) ;)
  8. Emdee

    Emdee New Member

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    Everyone who watches him doesnt GET Patrick but I can tell you that every skater gets Patrick and those who snipe at him are just jealous.

    Also watching Patrick skating in person is a thing of beauty! A lot is lost on You tube or TV.
  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    If I had a dollar for every time someone online suggested that criticism must be due to jealousy, I could actually afford to go to the Olympics!

    For me, I'm glad that Chan's finally left Nichol; she's been doing better work for Kostner than she has for him. But I am once again underwhelmed by his music choices. The closest thing to a risky choice I've seen in his career was Take Five. As Ziggy stated, a lot of other skaters work within a certain range because they found a style that works for them - but with Chan, I'm not seeing a personal style, so more variety would be nice. Well, to each their own.

    Look, it's fine to like Chan's skating, and it's okay not to like it. Both are valid opinions. But just because you enjoy his skating and performances doesn't mean that everyone must.
    shan and (deleted member) like this.
  10. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    ^^^ No one is forcing you to. Emdee speaks in awe of Patrick's skating just as some of us are but we never say you should appreciate the skaters we like. Artistry is harder to measure than technical skills. A beautiful painting to one may be unattractive to another. To each his/her own...
    Hope you can go to the Olympics .. I wish that too.:)
  11. Emdee

    Emdee New Member

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    Zemgirl
    I will send you the dollar for your Olympic fund! If you make a request on you tube with a suitable sob story you could soon end up with hundreds of thousands and indeed go to the Olys.

    When I spoke of jealousy it did not refer to fans of other skaters but to the skaters themselves. There have been some who made snide remarks about Patrick but most are in awe of his skating skills. Its been said frequently that he is a skater's skater.


    I wish Patrick only the very best of everything on his road to Sochi!
  12. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I will hold you to that if I ever begin a fundraising effort :D

    As for the jealousy issue - yes, I know what you meant. But I don't think it's true regarding Patrick Chan's peers, either. Just like skating fans, different skaters can also prefer different styles of skating. It doesn't mean that they are jealous of Chan (or anyone else), just that his skating may not be their cup of tea. Accusations of jealousy are something one sees a lot of in online debates - for instance, apparently many writers and readers are jealous of E. L. James :rolleyes: - and I don't think it contributes to most discussions; it's kind of a fall back when people don't have a more compelling argument.

    BTW, I will concede that Chan is much, much better at what he does than E. L. James is at what she does. :p
  13. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I have this feeling though there's far more people around the world getting excited about E.L. James' writing than people enjoying Chan's skating and if my assumption is correct, I can only conclude E.L. is much more skilled at what she does than Chan is in his line of work.:p
  14. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Taka is amazingly versatile. I'd give him the edge over Chan in terms of musicality and also say he's more of a natural-born entertainer. But Chan has other qualities that more than compensate for this.


    IMO his exceptional skating functions as a source of his expression. It enables him to construct moves and flourishes that highlight or punctuate the music. This wouldn't be possible without the skating skills. A skater can be wonderfully musical but not have technical ability to fully express that musicality. Patrick's musicality may not be his key strength, but it is not accurate at all to say he is woefully lacking in musicality. To give an analogy, a brilliant pianist may play a piece that she/he doesn't fully connect with, but the execution can still be outstanding. When the pianist does connect with the music, the piece achieves the level of a masterpiece.

    What he hasn't had is a signature program, and to be fair, signature programs are rare for most skaters. That is what makes them 'signature'. I hope the Elegie will be the one that 'sings' for Patrick in terms of emotion and connection. His masterpiece, or hopefully his first masterpiece.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
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  15. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    The "Elegie" EX achieved that, for me.
    I hope the "Elegie" SP will, also.
  16. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

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    Love this, you are so right.
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It's true that this is the way PCS are rewarded, but there's nothing in the criteria that should reward Chan's IN and CH more than Janet Lynn's "Tales of the Vienna Woods" or Kurt Browning's jumpless "Nyah."

    That's not oversimplifying the way marks are awarded, since most of the PCS are anchored to the SS mark and not that many at the senior level at any rank receive other PCS with a variance of more than a point of that mark or 1.25-1.5 from highest to lowest. If SS are tied to jump content, then PCS are even further in the direction of rewarding the technical.

    Don't you just love a good, narrow corridor?
  18. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Chan also had different style of music, the jazzy Take 5 and the more classical Aranjez. You don't see it that doesn't mean it's not. It's just different taste. But to say that he doesn't have it is ridiculous.
  19. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    I guess it can be said about you or others don't like Chan's skate. Just because you don't see it or don't enjoy his style, doesn't mean he doesn't have a style. It's just different skater for different people.
  20. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    They never competed at the same time, so not sure how you can compare their scores? Do you compare Dai's score and the other two as well?
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad to see that in-fact Patrick Chan's musicality is actually able to stir up strong emotions in people.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
  22. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Nobody else can do it as well, though.

    Intense music calls for intense expression, understated music calls for understated expression. And so on. Movement should be appropriate to the music.

    What you are doing though is using 'understated' as an excuse for lacking performance skills and being too introverted on the ice instead of presenting out to the audience.

    Kozuka has good basics, good timing but zero style and looks like he couldn't care less when he is skating. Which is a real shame because it's a total waste of his abilities. And he does get hammered on the PCS as well.

    I assume that people who post on this board are adults (or teenagers) who are capable of critical thinking.

    I wasn't talking about just picking different styles of music. I was talking showing different styles of movement, appropriately to the music chosen.

    You move very differently in a tango (sharp, staccato, etc.) and in a street dance (down in the knees, more fluid, etc.).
  23. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    There are really different ideas on and perceptions of different performances whether it be skating or dancing and acting or other performances where there is an experience shared between audience and performer(s).

    It is never going to be the same for everyone. And no matter how many people agree or disagree about the experience or what background or training certain individuals have - it will never be simple or black and white enough for anyone to say that another person's experience or perception is wrong.

    There may be opinions that are more common - but even if there are 5000 people in the audience and 2 of them like something that none of the others do or vice versa - those 2 people are not wrong.

    And that is why there is so much passionate arguing on FSU and it seems some performers or performances divide people more than others. And some bring out the most passionate support or - the opposite - even hostility.

    I love watching Takahashi. I honestly think there is no one else quite like him and IMO he makes every piece of music his own and performs it so very very well - I buy it. There are other people who find his performances over the top and therefore not enjoyable. I can't say they are wrong - though what they experience is different from what I experience.

    I love watching Patrick Chan and I find him to be musical and detailed and subtle. I also appreciate that he is putting a great deal of effort into working with dancers and other choreographers to expand his abilities as a performer and skater and perhaps it will lead to some of the many who don't enjoy his skating to like it more. Perhaps it won't. In any case - I don't think for a moment I am confusing lack of expression with subtlety.

    I could go on - and probably will in some other post about different perceptions I have encountered with dance, theatre film and a great deal of other skating.
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  24. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    Ziggy, to each his/her own. Cheers.:40beers:
  25. Emdee

    Emdee New Member

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    Any performance has two ways to reach the audience.
    Drawing the audience in or reaching out to the audience.

    IMO in Patrick's better performances ( 4cc 2009, Canadian Nats 2011, Canadian Nats 2012, Worlds 2011) he draws you into his programs.
    Reaching out is what entertainers do but artists draw you in.

    The Chan versus Taka debates are unfair as you are comparing a 21 year old Chan with a 26 year old Taka. 5 extra years of skating, studying movement expression etc are bound to develop a recognizable style. Patrick is in the development stage of his own style. That is why he has made a monumental move this year working with different choreographers exploring different styles and nuances in music.
    What is amazing though is Patrick's sophistication as a skater at the age of 21.
  26. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I'd argue that artists can do both and that this sort of flexibility and versatility is part of what makes them artists.

    You can also compare where Chan is now compared to where Takahashi was at the same age, with the caveat that the judging was a bit different back then. I'm not that big of a fan of Dai's, and I absolutely agree that he's developed a fair bit in the years since - but I still think the comparison would be favorable to him. In terms of technical ability and progress with that aspect, that's a different discussion.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
  27. ks1227

    ks1227 Active Member

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    I usually respect your comments on figure skating a lot but this is just :rolleyes: .
  28. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    ITA.
  29. tkaug

    tkaug New Member

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    It is a good progress for him that he finally stopped using the same programs this as he used in the previous season. That was really limiting his eagerness for showing different styles of his performances. I hear it was because of a financial problem but there's no way that a world champion can't skate to new programs each season. I was really having enough of seeing him skate to the same music for 2 seasons, even after becoming a world champion. No problem with that as long as that program suits him really well and we enjoy watching it, but unfortunately, he is not a skater for me to remember by the music that he skates to.
  30. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it was for financial reasons. I think it was because his programs are so difficult and complex that a) it is hard to master two new programs in a season and b) he wants to give the programs more time to evolve. Most likely a) was more important than b).

    I was okay with the long programs he kept but did get weary of Take Five in its second season.

    I wonder if he is going to do another two programs for the Olympic season? Or is 'Elegy' going to be a keeper - one you want to see two seasons running?
  31. tkaug

    tkaug New Member

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    As you say, I've also heard that was because it was difficult for him to change both programs, but I just don't understand. Many other skaters do that and why can't he? What is the point that he skates to the same music again that made him a world champion? This is nothing challenging to do even if he puts more difficult technical contents. If he wants to put more difficult technical contents, he can do it for a new program.
  32. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Chan's programs are much more complicated than many other skaters and each season he has been adding jump arsenault as well. In addition - he is not the only skater to do this - and definitely not the only World Champion. Didn't Viktor Petrenko use one program 3 years in a row? And that was way before all the difficult transitions and levels of COP.
    Personally I am grateful that Chan kept some of his programs for 2 years to have had the chance to see what they became after the mileage he had on them - but to each their own for sure.
  33. Emdee

    Emdee New Member

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    Accordion I agree about POTO as this changed radically in year 2 but I still think that Take 5 got a bit stale ... even for Patrick.
  34. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Totally hear you.

    I was talking to a lower level (not quite nationals) US judge a few years ago at a comp and they tested switching the PCS ordering around...so SS is not the first mark given. Not sure how scientific the study was done but they concluded the marks came out way different on PCS side.

    This is a problem of any judging system past or present because judges can lose their credentials if they consistently vary to the average or median mark. So, it causes a dynamic where judges are scoring "what they think everyone else will give that skater". THAT's the big issue.
  35. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    It's always challenging to skate a program well, especially when the technical content is difficult - and 3 quads in two programs is difficult.

    Patrick did really well when he introduced the quad to his arsenal - there are many skaters who introduce it, never master it, and lose it. Or, their artistry suffers because of the focus on the quad. That shows just how difficult it is to introduce the quad to competition. 3A is the same for those who are new to the jump.

    And these skaters aren't doing level 4 footwork.