Patrick Chan embarks on season with new coach, choreographers and two new programs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 7, 2012.

  1. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    30,358
    I think that no longer applies, especially after having seen his Elegie exhibition. He was smooth like butter and maintained a beautiful impression of flow both with his blades and body. :swoon: Again, I just wish that program were an LP. So gorgeous. Goosebumps.
  2. venja

    venja New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2002
    Messages:
    966
    While I tend to agree a bit with your statement, I believe that Patrick is taking the necessary steps to work on this, such as training with his new coach. In the 16x9 video below you can see the influence Kathy Johnson has with Patrick working on his movement on- and off-ice at around the 5:25 mark:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKBUMs9kkk8

    I am excited that Patrick finally has two new programs to unveil in one season, however I think that he will most likely keep one or both programs for the Olympic season.
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    7,889
    I just watched that exhibition for the first time, and it reminded me of Toller Cranston.
  4. crzesk8dad

    crzesk8dad Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    463
    Really? :rofl:
  5. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,417
    Chan is a much more understated performer than some- but I don't find him anything close to "wooden" or "robotic" and IMO he is quite musical. However, his performance is much much more subtle than someone like Takahashi (whom I also adore)- so I do understand that some people perceive him the way they do.
    \
    But I do wish people would stop insisting that because they don't think he performs well or they don't find him musical that it is a fact.

    I've also had my rant before about the arrogrance of people using words like heartless or soulless. For one thing - who are you to make such a judgment? For another thing, using such words for any skater that has put in the time needed to be a competitive figure skater is ludicrous.
    falling_dance, alilou, Really and 5 others like this.
  6. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,476
    I think this season Chan will come on top in technical and performance compared to Dai's programs
  7. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,685
    His best EX so far. The speed, lightness, flow, and subtle nuances … it’s like a feather floating above the ice.
    I am not sure what ‘robotic’ means but if it means not having a too much facial expression that is acceptable to me. :) Afterall, I don’t look at the face but the feet and body movements as a whole. A robot to one may be pure skating skills to another and vice versa. It’s just personal preference for understated skating skills rather thqn the dramatic and flamboyant.
    Any growth for any skater is a welcome to skating fans. It is nicer to watch a strong field than a weak one. They push each other to higher levels. I am delighted to know that Plushenko, Lysacek and Weir are returning. They are all great skaters in their own right and I am sure, their return will also up the antennae for the men. Figure skating fans will not lose (unless enjoyment means only my favourite can and should win). Let’s enjoy.
  8. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,478
    I've said it before and now I repeat myself but after seeing Patrick skate live and back to back with Dai, the difference was notable. Patrick is so fast and smooth but what impressed me was his body movement. He uses his whole body to convey emotion, digging deep down then extending his body to the rafters. I couldn't see much facial expression but then again I was too far away for that and I really think that it's the body positions and movement that should express emotion in this venue. He skates "big", and also his ice coverage is 2nd to none........a few strokes and he's at the other end of the rink......amazing :)
  9. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    If doing quad jumps and fancy footworks are boring...well, then I'd rather see these qualities than some skaters making over dramatic gestures and over the top facial expression. His musicality is just fine...simple and low key. Let the skate speaks for itself.
  10. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    What does that mean?
  11. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Some like to believe over dramatic, over the top facial expression such as Dai or Hanyu or Amadio = artistry. Anything lack of those = no artistry. :rolleyes:


    I can only think of the reason some like to keep saying that is that, they can NOT find anything flaw to say about his skate...so has to stick to "heartless" or "soulless" to justify their nonsense. Some people's description of his skate is almost like talking about someone like Elvis's skate. Give me a break :rolleyes:
  12. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    You see, to some, all these "skating" qualities don't count if he doesn't roll his head, fling his arms up and down busily, make wide eye stare at you, pound his chest or look like he's about to cry, aka artistry.
  13. tkaug

    tkaug New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    137
    I've been moved by performances of Takahashi, Abbott, Hanyu, and many other men, but never by Chan's. I've never liked his performances so I want to watch them again and again. When it comes to his programs, it's always about techniches or scoring and I don't see much about the relationship to the music in his programs. In fact, I haven't heard so much about the music itself from him that he chooses to skate to. Admitting he deserves the best marks on SS and TR, but I just don't understand that he gets the best marks on CH and IN.
  14. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,115
    I find it easy to understand why Chan gets high marks in CH and IN.
  15. tkaug

    tkaug New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    137
    Because PCS is based on SS which he has among the best, but many fans say it's wrong. If he has the best marks on CH and IN, then it should mean he has the best chreography and interpretation skills, which he probably does not.
  16. RoseAugust

    RoseAugust New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    169
    People are moved by different things. To state that because you're not personally moved means just that ; YOU are not moved. It does not mean that it's a fact his skating is not moving and without soul. He moves me, and in a powerful way. More than any other current skater, I watch his programs over and over again.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  17. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,417
    :respec:
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,250
    Me too. His skating isn't entertaining or in-your-face, but he is musical and expresses himself well.
  19. tkaug

    tkaug New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    137
    I do not think many people don't find him moving, but it is a fact that he's overscored in PCS. The audience's booing when his scores were announced in the Worlds 2012 proves it all. Also many commentators from many countries said he didn't deserve to win.

    It's just WRONG that he got the highest mark, 9.0's in PE and IN with a fall like that and a time violation because of being late to the music.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
  20. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,417
    Methinks someone has to review the definition of the word "fact".
  21. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    When you look at Takahashi, his body movement is incredibly detailed, he has lot of little choreographic touches and he is utilising his whole body throughout his programs, moving it very fluidly, and just he oozes expression. His movement is very soft and cat-like.

    Chan does technically skate to the music but I find him missing the above qualities. Well maybe not missing but he's not on Dai's level.

    Also, there are some skaters who have very distinct styles or who always show something strong conceptually, that stands out. Chan "just" shows very good craftsmanship.

    He is probably the most skilled male skater to have ever competed, I just wish his programs were more daring and original. I largely blame Lori Nichol - the worst peddler of toilet break "choreography" - for this state of affairs and I have hopes of his programs being much more interesting this season since he finally decided to work with somebody else. Shame it's Wilson and Buttle though and not somebody like Miyamoto or Dickson or Camerlengo. :/

    As I've written above, Chan's style just isn't as flashy as Takahashi's or Abbott's - to give two examples - but he does tick most of the PCS boxes.

    Those are two very brief moments. They don't cancel out everything that he showed for the vast majority of his performance.
    euler, alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,250
    Love you, Ziggy.
  23. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    30,358
    I agree there were moments in Chan's programs when he wasn't feeling nor responding to the nuances of the music, particularly jazz. That's where Takahashi shines--he IS jazz.

    However, I see Chan's artistic skills blossoming. He is extremely elegant and fluid in the Elegie, very spare, minimalistc choreo involving the arms but I like that. Most of the work is done by the blades, which are magical. It suits the program--the result is so elegant. I hope he develops in that direction.
  24. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,685
    I think I may love you too, Ziggy.... like Marco. :p
    Fair enough, I know what you mean by Daisuke's cat like movement. Patrick did admit that 'he doesn't dance' (count ballet out) .. and I think his 'dance' means dancing in nightclubs/discos?? Personally, I see him as a very talented athlete first and dancer second.
    Patrick needs to skate to the genre he is most comfortable with. We will see in this season whether the change in choreographers and coaches will bring about changes in his programs. Though I really cannot imagine Patrick skating to a Michael Jackson! But there are some skaters who may pull this off ... like Daisuke, Florent and even Weir. :D
  25. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2001
    Messages:
    9,184
    I think he is still developing his artistic side and with watching his exhibition program and Buttle's ability to tap into bringing out his passion and inner artist Patrick will be major force this season on the artistic side.. he is one of the smartest skaters i Know and approaches his craft very methodically, doing what is necessary to reach the next step. My one concern is if he focuses too much on the artistic side he will lose the equilibrium with his technical side - which does require a very methodical approach.. Which is what has happened with some other skaters who almost get 'lost' in their program - that they 'become' their program which is incredible for us to watch.. but can also lead to technical difficulties.. IMHO :p

    ITA.. :D
  26. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,804
    And so once again we go down the path that the audience -- both those who sit in the stands and those announcing - know how to better judge the program of a skater than the actual judges. :rolleyes: Gaaaaah, how many more times will someone trying to use that criteria as an excuse for why THEIR favourite didn't win.
    clarie and (deleted member) like this.
  27. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,855
    ...and lots of comments about how Patrick is a great technician -- even on the PCS side and doesn't seem to have flashy or emotional qualities.
    I would debate that but am happy to let it go. What I will say is that's what CoP values more now...the technical side of artistry.

    This is first and foremost a sport. TES and PCS reward the physical challenges of execution. I tell people who are watching and are new to the sport "when you see something you think is good artistically ask yourself if it's physically challenging to do. If it's not, then it isn't rewarded much in the 'artistic' mark"

    Way over-simplifying but that's how eligible skating is rewarded. You can bemoan the lack of emotional impact Patrick makes on you but while it does matter a tich, it doesn't matter enough to drive a different result in the standings. If you want to be emotionally impacted, go watch show skating. If you want to appreciate technical brilliance in every aspect of skating down to the slightest nuance, follow eligible skating.

    Net net it's totally cool if Patrick doesn't do much for you...but trying to connect your feelings to your judgement of where skaters should be placing will forever be a losing battle.
  28. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,187

    Have a few sins to confess.:slinkaway I don't usually have a problem with Nichol's choreographies, I always found them clever and stylish and I think Lori has good taste in music. I am not familiar with Miyamoto's work, can't name any masterpiece program he may have created. I often had trouble in the past to understand Dickson's choreographic ideas. Haven't formed an opinion yet of Jeffrey Buttle as a choreographer for competition. No OTT Camerlengo style for Chan please. I have mixed feelings for David Wilson, I thought some of his programs were brilliant while others never appealed to me.

    While I am ready to admit to Chan's inferiority to other skaters in terms of how he expresses the music, I wouldn't trade his incredibly effortless skating/edging and fluid movement over the ice for anything of what other men have to offer to the sport even though I'm well aware that Chan's brilliant skating qualities will probably never get the same recognition from fs fans as the drama or theatrics other men are so able to display in their performances on the ice.

    I'd just like Chan to learn to stay focused all throughout his programs, I mean he lands two gorgeous quadruple jumps, a solid 3A or a most amazing second 3Lz right in the middle of the rink with one of the most difficult entries into the jump one can think of but he falls on a stupid double A. Don't you just want to strangle him with your bare hands?:lol:

    Ad nauseum, I presume.;)
  29. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    13,733
    There are many different types/definitions of "artistry".
    I respect all - and enjoy - most examples of them.
  30. frisette70

    frisette70 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    238
    I agree and i think it has a lot to do with his age, we often forget that Patrick is only 21...
  31. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2002
    Messages:
    1,163
    We really noticed this at the GPF this year. He put on a little bit more muscle this fall and his power is now quite impressive. 2 pushes (yep, we counted :lol:) to get from one end of the rink to the other. Amazing for sure.

    Exactly! Rome wasn't built in a day people. Kurt Browning at 21 was nothing more than a jumping bean. The programs Lori Nichol choreographs are not artistic masterpieces, but they are very COP savvy and go a long way in developing young skaters' technical skills. But Patrick has outgrown her choreo now, and it's time for him to work with other choreographers who will help develop his artistic skills. Elegie is the first program of his to really knock my socks off. I'm looking forward to seeing the competitive version.
  32. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Rock2 - very good point.

    It's one thing to talk about what you like and don't like but judging needs to be based on qualities that can be reasonably defined. "Soul" and "artistry" definitely aren't those.

    Daisuke Takahashi - The Eye (2010 Olympic SP)

    This x infinity. Especially because then people focus on the mistakes and seem to forget everything that happened before them.
  33. trevor

    trevor New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    According to his mother, whom I had conversation with, modern dance movements from Johnson, who was a graduate of Julliard School,and wrote books on dance Biomechanics?, helped Patrick to improve on traditonal Jump technics, and the Krall system of Jump Teacher, audio visual on screen, was over exaggerated. The muscles used in modern dance movements, are used and applied in skating jumps and movements, and that helped Patrick a lot.;)
  34. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    It would be great if Johnson became more involved in skating. Perhaps developing an off-ice training program for skaters?
  35. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    6,995
    Isn't he a year younger than Jeremy Ten and a year older than Liam Firus? Take a look at what they did in Salt Lake this weekend and it kinda puts things in perspective.
  36. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,187
    I'm such a disgrace, I didn't know Miyamoto choreographed that SP for Takahashi. I'm not a fan of busy/flashy costumes or crazy hairstyles in athletes but that program was terrific by all means, a real joy to watch.:)

    Thanks, Ziggy.

    I'm not arguing Johnson wouldn't have helped Patrick improve his technique on the jumps but I'd still feel more relaxed if I knew he had a technical coach the old-school way. Maybe I'm wrong to worry though.
  37. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Yes, definitely this.

    Whilst it's very interesting to hear about Johnson's research into biomechanics and whilst that knowledge will surely help Chan, jumps and skating in general also - and even more so - relies on edges. You need to have a coach who can give you that input as well.
  38. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Very subjective. I love all Chan's programs...all of the movements, little movements...it's more than just technical stuff. And everyone's skating is about scoring. It's a competition, not Stars on Ice.
  39. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    He got penalties for all his mistakes. Other skaters didn't skate well either. Overall, his program was still the hardest among all other competitors.
  40. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    I disagree completely. Chan has so many small elements that other skaters don't have. I'm not an expert, but Tracey Wilson sometimes point out the very simple stuff that he has in his skates that separate him for others.

    I do not find Dai's busy hand movements are anything other than busy hand movements. I sometimes find his hands move more than his feet. And this is about skating, not sign language competition.

    Very distinct styles are subjective. Some may find someone like Weir's style is distinctive...but after watching year after year, it's same old same old. Amodio is the same, always dramatic. Dai use the same type of music ALL THE TIME. Jourber's techno forever.... I find Chan has more variety than these skaters.

    Flashy means nothing other than just flashy. Chan's more subtle...but that doesn't mean his has no style nor distinctive.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.