Parents Keep Child's Gender A Secret Following Birth (and other incredulous stuff)

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Cyn, May 24, 2011.

  1. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    I guess you didn't read BR's article. Here's an excerpt:
    Basically the article discounted your definition of biological sex as inherently flawed.

    That may be why BR concluded:
    Which was what I was arguing and what I thought was wrong with the traditional concept of biological sex.
    Cats' hind paws only have 4 toes per paw :shuffle:. So maybe what you are so very certain is an immutable characteristic of a species is, well, inaccurate. And in the context of this discussion, perhaps your view of biological sex is largely constrained by preconceived genderized views of people.

    As BR's article concluded:
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  2. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree. In early or ancient societies (I prefer not to use the word primitive) gender roles would have been defined but not most likely not defined to oppress women. A division of labour between the sexes is pretty much a standard in traditional societies. Woman's roles were built around child-bearing and raising, so the work they did was built around that as suited a given society's needs (i.e gathering, tilling the fields). It's not surprising that women came to be responsible for food production - today they produce something like 70% of the world's foods.

    The values and status associated with men's work/roles versus women's work/roles would have come later. Some historians and scientists argue otherwise, that women have been oppressed from the get go, but the validity of this view has been questioned by anthropologists, historians and analyses of mythology.
     
  3. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    I did read it. I think she's taking some very rare exceptions and using them to "prove" that you can't easily determine what it means to be one sex or the other. As I said, I don't think these exceptions negate the basic definitions. There have always been mutations and animals that don't meet 100% of the definition for what it means to be a particular species or a particular sex within that species and yet we don't throw out our whole classification system because of it.

    What fascinates me is why? Why decide to oppress on sex or the other when I don't see a biological advantage to doing so.
     
  4. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    Are there really animals that don't fit within their species, but are still labeled as belonging to that species?

    I'm not that up on the topic, but that would surprise me. What animal is that true for?
     
  5. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    A little background on the SRY gene, genotypes and phenotypes, which is what the quoted article is really talking about. When it says "essentially male" or "essentially female", the key word is "essentially".
     
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  6. joeperryfan

    joeperryfan Well-Known Member

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    Paternity certainty. Women always know they are the mother of a child, men can never be sure they are the father and as males started to invest more on the upbringing of their children, instead of just making them and going away, the need to make sure the investment was being made on their biological child grew and thus a necessity to restricts and confine women's steps.
    The biological advantage for males is to make sure they are upbringing their biological children and for females is to have more support from the males in the upbringing.
     
  7. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    There are different theories about that. One is that it began when men in goddess or earth-spirit worshipping societies sought to create their own gods. That done, men and their gods became dominant in certain situations, particularly situations of conflict. My thought is that in a peaceable, egalitarian society (as ancient agrarian societies are seen to be) , aggressive men would be contained or perhaps shunned, but in a situation of war, such men would be exalted.

    So, for example, when the hordes from the European-Asian north invaded goddess-worshiping Greece (where one of remaining temples to the Goddess still stands in part), patriarchy took hold. Men had an opportunity to assume positions of power and those who could, did, though the process took time. It can traced through mythology - the all-powerful Greek earth mother/life creator Gaia diminished in importance during that period of time, with Zeus rising to the far and Venus representations such as Aphrodite of Melos becoming the mythological ideal of feminine beauty and love. Such images replaced the previously omnipresent images of the heavy, squat and seemingly very pregnant fertility goddess now now as Venus of Wilendorf.

    It's also been speculated that ancient/cavepeople societies with magical belief systems did not understand the sperm-egg relationships and saw pregnancy as goddess-given or mystically bestowed. Hence, matrilineage would be only natural. It makes sense to me, especially in societies where sex is not restricted to monogomy. Once men realized their role in pregnancy, they were able to assume dominance over women with an oppressive patrilineal system. And patrilineage is one of the lynchpins of patriarchy.

    But the men who dominate within patriarchy are some (and few) men, not all men. It's the basic 'power over' system and since it took hold so long ago, it's become entrenched and encoded in how we live. Though some men and women have and continue to fight it.

    As to the biological advantage, I'm not sure there really is one. As joeperryfan points out, females need support from men in patrilineal systems. But that need is exaggerated because women relinquish their power and autonomy.

    As to men, a social and political advantage is gained by those few who hold 'power over' the many others. The son inherits the status of the father, giving a man a better of chance of becoming the next Caesar so to speak. I suppose it's possible that if men in power have more children, more men like themselves would be produced. But it seems to me that are far too many environmental variables for this to be a smooth process, especially since I don't believe that gender is biologically determined.

    Goodness knows, there have been enough insane and destructive men in power to question their biological competence or superiority. And I think were it women within the same system of power over, we are equally capable of being insane and destructive.

    Of course we have little solid evidence of how people actually lived some 12,000 years or so. But I find it a fascinating subject to explore and think about and nothing yet has convinced me that women's oppression is intrinsic to human society.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
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  8. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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  9. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    From the article:
    I thought this quip from one parent interesting:
     
  10. fluorescein

    fluorescein New Member

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    :lol: DD's charter school allows khaki or navy skirts, jumpers, pants or bermuda shorts for girls, but by middle school, when the hiking up of skirts in Catholic schools typically starts, all the girls in her charter school have gone to pants or bermuda shorts exclusively. DD says it's for maximum modesty. Nothing under a skirt is sufficient for their sensibilities at that age, I guess. :D Her Catholic school friends, though, continue to wear hiked up skirts, even when they have the option of pants or shorts. Not sure what to make of that...:shuffle:

    I will say though that even in our relatively, um, conventional environment, her school/classmates is/are pretty progressive. Kids who don't quite fit the norms are accepted for who they are. I think of our area as slightly backward, but maybe we're not so bad.
     
  11. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    From strictly a fashion standpoint, the plaid skirts are cuter than the replacement outfit proposed, IMO. Also, the parents are paying for the brand and want the uniform to be recognizable, I suppose.

    From a practical standpoint, I was always wondering if the girls were cold during the winter months in those skirts and tights vs. pants. I personally tend to wear slacks more during the colder months and switch to dresses and skirts/blouses during the warmer months. In the old country we had to wear very itchy and ugly brown wool dresses with white aprons on special occasions and black aprons on regular days. Boys wore white or blue shirts and blue pants and jackets. Gawd, I hated that dress, made us look like housemaids. :scream: However, during the harsh winters, I had to wear an additional pair of knit tights, and so am wondering about girls wearing skirts here.
     
  12. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    we always wore tights in the winter under the skirt. often in the winter, people wore sweatpants or something on the bus in the morning under the skirt. there was always a pants option but no one ever wore it, it was fug.

    when i was recently at the liberty bell, there was some school there where all the girls were in khaki pants. they looked like little jc penney saleswomen.
     
  13. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    At the school I taught at, they wore the skirts all winter. With Uggs. And whined because they were cold. And they wore the skirts in the warm months. With Uggs. And whined because their feet were hot.

    Teenagers can be so delightful!

    On a serious note, they had the option to wear khaki pants as well, and many alternated. They could also wear khaki shorts and skorts. None of them wore the skorts. And most of the boys wore shorts year round. And whined about being cold.
     
  14. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    ^^^:lol:

    Yeah, that's the problem with the proposed uniforms of that school. Little saleswomen.
     
  15. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Not Target salespeople? :lol:
     
  16. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Silly. And I'm directing that at the parents.
     
  17. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    i havent been there but it is probably also applicable
     
  18. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Their red polo shirts and khaki pants/skirts haunt my dreams. ;)
     
  19. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Sounds like someone is trying too hard.
     
  20. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly what's going on.

    It's why I think getting preoccupied with gender roles in either respect, whether you want to maintain some "traditional" roles or avoid the same, is problematic.

    Do what makes sense. I love to cook. So I cook. My husband actually likes to clean, so he does all the cleaning except the kitchen. We both hate laundry. I'm home the most right now, so I do it. When I go back to work, he'll be home more due to his shifts and very well may do it. Because we do what makes sense.
     
  21. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    In the GTA there is a movement on the part of some Catholic schools to ban the plaid kilt skirts because the "naughty schoolgirl" stereotype is the girl in the white shirt, navy tie, and short plaid skirt.

    Watching groups of girls headed off to school is interesting. Some of the girls' skirts are almost to their knees, and on others, the skirt barely covers their butts. I would think the sane solution would be to institute a minimum acceptable length for the skirts.
     
  22. PrincessLeppard

    PrincessLeppard Pink Bitch

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    There is a minimum acceptable length. But the second they are out of school (or before school), some girls roll the waistband until the skirt is, erm, more interesting. ;)
     
  23. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    There was a minimum required length where I worked. As PL said, they roll the waist bands up. And it is extremely awkward for staff to check for that. And often, a female teacher could say "hey, go fix your skirt" and they would do it and roll it again before the next class where a male teacher is not going to say anything because doing so gets him accused of inappropriately looking at the girls. I can really see why a school might want to just remove them from the uniform.
     
  24. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    While I think an equal marriage would have been far more desirable, it's interesting you call this "silliness". Because when a man is charge and a woman is submissive, it's just normal - never silly.

    So you're caught up in gender roles in your reaction.

    The switch is interesting, in any rate, from the POV of what the couples' experience is of their switched roles and what they learned from it.
     
  25. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Good point, Japanfan. Though I suspect that same poster might think that the opposite, where the man is in charge to be silly too. Or at least sub-optimal.
     
  26. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    As long as there has been Catholic school, there has been a minimum skirt length and people trying to get away with much shorter.

    I know. I was one of them ;)
     
  27. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is only Catholic schools. Even in our public schools, which have very lax dress codes, the kids are still pushing the limits. Tank tops must have straps at least 2 fingers wide .... there must be some pretty tiny fingers out there.
     
  28. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    Not just the isolation. For me it was also the "you're a mom and ONLY a mom and everything else you were or are no longer exists" mentality. It didn't matter that I'd had all kinds of experiences or was trained to do this or had worked doing that--all of a sudden it was all mom mom mom mom. Everything I did from that point onward was expected to be related to being a mom. I really hated that suddenly the rest of who I was was suddenly deemed completely unimportant and irrelevant. The obliteration of self, if you will.
     
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  29. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Yeah, my mom tells me stories... and her case it was poverty that gave her short skirts so being scolded by the nuns just made it worse.
     
  30. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    Yeah...I already commented on that. And I didn't even come close to declaring that patriarchy is good.

    I really enjoy people not reading the whole thread then taking someone to task. :rolleyes: