Oscar Pistorius on murder charge

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by skatefan, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to come across like a piss-fetishist since I keep harping on this one point, but I don't think it is unreasonable for a wounded person to release all muscle control, yet still be alive for a time.
     
  2. duane

    duane New Member

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    It's his story, not mines. If the house is SO dark to the point that he doesn't realize the person sleeping next to him isn't there, I would assume she would have turned on the lights to go to the bathroom. And, bedrooms have windows. Hallways and bathrooms perhaps don't. Regardless, use common sense. Going to the bathroom during the night isn't abnormal. If during the night you hear a noise that alarms you and someone is spending the night, the first thing you do is see if it's that person.

    Sheesh, with the comments here, there's almost no question the guy will walk.
     
  3. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Of course, because FSUers will be the ones deciding on Pistorious's guilt or innocence. :rolleyes:

    I don't know what standard of proof is required in South Africa, but in many places, guilt should be proven beyond reasonable doubt. At this point, there a lot we don't yet know and a police investigation that has not inspired confidence. This may change, or it may not. But just like we shouldn't rush to absolve Pistorious of blame, neither should we rush to declare him guilty of a truly sickening crime without having access to all the relevant evidence and information.
     
  4. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't this be somewhat easy to figure out though- she was in clothing. If she was hiding in the bathroom and lost control of her bladder, her clothes should easily tell that tale.

    If she was purposefully going to the toilet, it is unlikely she would have more than a drop, if any, of urine on her.
     
  5. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Honestly I think the presence or not of pee is a red herring. I think any circumstance could point to either her voluntarily going into the toilet room, or being chased in there, whether to pee or to hide. For example, say she didn't have to pee but rather was chased to the toilet or ran there because Oscar was coming after her. What if Oscar is telling the truth, and she awoke when he got out of bed and was moving the fan, and headed to the bathroom to get a drink of water or an aspirin? Then, when she's in the bathroom, Oscar hears noises and shouts out about an intruder, so - perhaps even glancing back and seeing Oscar's silhouette and/or the open patio window - she runs into the toilet, locks the door and hides quietly, hoping to stay safe.

    Same as the locked door - IMO I don't think the question of pee supports or detracts from either Oscar's or the prosecution's case.
     
  6. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Sure, which is why I asked earlier whether that evidence was found. It's only one detail, but could be a telling one regardless.
     
  7. CanuckSk8r

    CanuckSk8r New Member

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    When you are used to someone sleeping next to you every night, yes, it does seem unreasonable to not think of where they are first. But when you are used to sleeping alone, it may take you some time to be awake enough to remember you are not alone this time.

    However, his statement says he didn't realize Reeva was not in bed, so my thoughts seem not to be the case. I imagine that the whole tragedy happened so incredibly quick.
     
  8. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Agree that when one first wakes up it sometimes takes a moment to remember where you are, what day it is etc. But in his own words, he seemed to be fully aware that she was there, and even gave thought to how an intruder could have entered the bathroom:

    And, he is trying to make the case that she was in bed, but then moved to the toilet:

     
  9. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    Right, so I ask again--wouldn't she likely have been right behind the door or turning away from the door rather than on or by the toilet in that case?

    I think the point is that her bladder would only have been empty if she had just emptied it. Your bladder is rarely empty and wouldn't likely be empty in the middle of the night because urine would be filling it as you sleep.

    Like heckles said, however, there may be reasons for that. Or not.
     
  10. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    But an empty bladder could support either case, no? The defense could say that she must have gotten up while he was on the balcony and used the toilet? Or the prosecution could suggest that Reeva had got up to use the toilet, and Oscar had seized the opportunity to gun her down while she was trapped in a confined space?

    And similarly, if the bladder was not empty, it still works for either side - that either she ran into the bathroom to hide from Oscar or an intruder, or that she was on her way to the toilet when Oscar shot her.

    I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong - just trying all the angles.
     
  11. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    Isn't it fairly common for one's bladder to empty upon death?
     
  12. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it depends on how often Pistorius slept alone. If he and Reeva had been virtually inseparable since November when they got together, or he had women frequently spend the night before he met Reeva or even after he was already involved with Reeva, he should have been used to having another person using his bathroom.
     
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Does it? I know it is often remarked that the bowels release. Do you contract the muscle to hold pee in, or contract it to let it out? If you have to always keep it contracted, then on death, it would release too.

    Still, if it happened after death, since she was clothed that night, it should be easy to find out if she emptied her bladder or if death did.

    I agree with others who have pointed out the bladder issue is a moot point and can be used as a positive or negative to either side.
     
  14. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    Since the bladder was empty, the latter would be moot. And to the best of my knowledge, the prosecutor hasn't said anything about Oscar taking advantage of her going into the bathroom to gun her down, but maybe I've missed a chapter somewhere in all the reports. All I have seen is that the prosecutor's theory is that she ran in the bathroom and locked the door to hide from a threatening Oscar.

    An empty bladder would be evidence that she had not gone to the bathroom to hide. That's why the defense would consider it an issue.

    Yes, and as has been pointed out, that would be evident from her clothing. Or not.
     
  15. Gazpacho

    Gazpacho Well-Known Member

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    I heard an interview with a forensic pathology expert last night, and he said that the empty bladder doesn't mean much.
     
  16. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Given that the lead detective has just been replaced, and that the general view is that the defense has already begun successfully tearing apart the prosecution's case, I'm guessing they are going to sure they've covered all the possibilities by the time this goes to trial.

    You're right, I haven't seen anything that suggests that Oscar used her trip to the toilet as an opportunity to kill her; but if the defense makes a strong case that her bladder being empty means that she was not chased but rather went into the toilet room for another, innocent reason, then the prosecution will need to cast doubt on that by presenting other possible scenarios that implicate Oscar, no?
     
  17. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it's better that they've replaced this detective rather than stubbornly kept him. One of the biggest mistakes of the OJ Simpson case was the prosecution's use of Mark Fuhrman's testimony when they were already aware that the guy was questionable.
     
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  18. Lorac

    Lorac Well-Known Member

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    It depends. If she locked the door and took a step back and was then hit by bullets she could have been knocked back onto the toilet seat and not been right by the door or turning away. It isn't a large space so that is perfectly feasible scenerio.

    Er no - we are just commenting on the evidence thus far presented and as more comes out I am more unsure of the exact nature of the incident. When this comes to full trial there will be many more arguments put forwards that will swing opinion both ways - either it was a tragic accident or if was a viscious murder - as yet I am unclear which it was.
     
  19. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    Based on whatever we know, I don’t see how they prove motive that Pistorius wanted her dead. I don’t think he wanted her dead. The most likely scenario to me is the roid rage angle, or he is another hot head with a gun. I think either case should bring with it some charge but a lesser charge than murder.
     
  20. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    This puzzles me too. They had only been together a few months, and apparently were not living together full time, so it doesn't seem possible that this was something building over time. Nor would there be any monetary gain etc.

    If he really did kill her deliberately, she might have threatened him in some way - knowing something he didn't want known for example. But again, they knew each other a short time, and there doesn't seem to be any reason for her to want to do that.

    I don't know enough about "roid rage" but I do wonder what's inside the head of someone who is highly competitive, and whose fame might have gone to his head. We see it sometimes with politicians - it's almost like they think they are superhuman and above the moral code that the rest of us follow. And you get people like Tiger Woods, who apparently have it all and yet still do something stupid and destructive.

    But then I also have trouble understanding gang members who kill each other based on something as small as a perceived insult, or because it makes them feel more powerful in some way. Oscar lives in a different culture than most of us here; maybe the value of human life is different for him, and he needs a lot less reason to kill someone than we would. After all, even if he didn't deliberately kill Reeva, he apparently had little trouble killing an intruder who had not threatened his life or hers, who was unseen, whose potential for violence was unknown, and whose motive for entering the house was also unknown to Oscar. And yet, just being in the house was by Oscar's own admission all he needed to know to shoot him.
     
  21. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    The thing that sticks out to me (again) is that he apparently didn’t even stop to consider his guest might be the one using the bathroom, nor did he think of her safety. If he did think of her safety, he would have *verified* she was safe before going after whomever was in the bathroom. That IMO indicates a very self-absorbed ego. Not that I think that in and of itself should convict him of any crimes but it makes me think he is a bit of a jerk.
     
  22. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Well the totally disastrous police investigation is surely helping Pistorius to look innocent, whatever actually happened.

    In situations of extreme stress - so when you believe your life is in danger - your body will expel anything that can slow down your escape.
     
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, OT, but what the heck. Heath Ledger may have dabbled in recreational drugs on occasion ... (I don't know and it's certainly irrelevant to the case under discussion). However, being a Hollywood actor does not necessarily equate to being "a known drug abuser." IMO, Heath Ledger was high on acting and high on life. At the time of his death, he was reportedly undergoing some emotional turmoil (due to the unresolved separation from his daughter Matilda, and former love, Michelle Williams). From his own admission in interviews, Heath was also exhausted after making a series of movies, including his devastatingly epic portrayal of The Joker, in The Dark Knight. As a result, Heath was taking sleeping medications prescribed by different doctors, which led to him unfortunately taking several medications at once that turned out to be toxic in combination. He just wanted to get some rest, and tragically ended up going to sleep forever.

    Condolences to Reeva Steenkamp's and Oscar Pistorius' families. Whether or not Reeva's death is proven to have been accidental and unintentional, Oscar's life and spirit are in a place of suffering, and will be forever changed.
     
  24. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    This reads like something from a Hollywood publicist. Or from Us Magazine. Kudos.
     
  25. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think even people in crime-ridden South Africa have different opinions on the value of human life and would kill each other at a perceived slight. You're right that many gang members live by that code, but gang members already exist on the fringe of society. I highly doubt Pistorius would have gotten to where he is, going to international sports meets, let along the Olympics, believing that. He would have to have the best PR person in the entire universe.

    And I believe most Americans would have no problem killing an intruder if their children were sleeping in the house. But I'd wager that most would be called to action by the sound of a broken window, or the door being kicked down, not merely "sounds coming from the kitchen or bathroom." So many children or spouses would be killed every year if that was the default trigger!

    At best, he shouldn't be trusted with even a cat in the house, if he's that trigger happy.
     
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Please, not US mag. But, Hollywood publicist sounds like a :cool: gig. Very rad, in fact. But, I'd want to avoid the younger set. Give me Dustin Hoffman, Jeff Bridges, Daniel Day Lewis, and Robert DeNiro ... well, uh scratch DeNiro, but the rest I'd love to handle ... uh write for. Brad Pitt and Angelina might be loverly to write for too, but nix that -- way too complicated family life. ;)

    BTW, how do you think some of your ramblings read?
     
  27. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this attitude is unusual among people who are really into guns and find themselves in a position where they feel that they have to protect themselves and their home. Shoot first; Ask Later. I bet it's an adrenaline rush for them to empty the rounds.
     
  28. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    We had an attempted break-in when I was little - with the sound of a broken window. The absolute first thing my parents did was check on me (and my dad is a gun owner). *Then* my dad went to the broken window.

    In my house, if a noise wakes me up at night, I always first assume its my cat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  29. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    If I'm lucky, like a cross between Oscar the Grouch and Rodney Dangerfield with extremely subtle traces of Alastair Cooke.
     
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  30. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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