Oscar Pistorius on murder charge

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by skatefan, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I'm really confused by SA procedures. (Or maybe I don't know my own countries very well.)

    Does the guilt of the person have -anything- to do with whether or not they get bail? I thought it was only if they were a flight risk? Or does the judge also weigh where he thinks the verdict will be placed to determine if bail is granted? Because it seemed like this hearing was entirely about the presumed guilt of Pistorius, and not whether he was likely to leave the country.
  2. DFJ

    DFJ Well-Known Member

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    I listened to this rambling magistrate go on and on...likes the sound of his own voice.
  3. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    They talked about this on CNN. It was the first time I felt really sorry for Pistorius.
  4. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    I think whether or not they are a threat to society or will try to tamper with witnesses also comes into play.
  5. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    I think it was more about determining what exactly he was charged with which then affects the terms of his bail - the prosection wanted him to be charged with a schedule 6 offence (premeditated murder), which automatically means he can't be granted bail. It seems they had to show in the hearing that there were valid reasons for pushing for a charge of that magnitude & the defence had to counter that it was culpable homicide or whatever the equivalent is in South Africa, which is why we've already heard so much about the case instead of just the question of flight risk & potential to reoffend whilst on bail.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  6. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    the decision is more a result of a pressure killer
    I stand by pistorius being guilty
  7. Lorac

    Lorac Well-Known Member

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    But guilt of what - pre-meditated murder or accidental murder (or whatever the lesser charge is in SA)? Yes he did kill her - we all acknowledge that - but did he mean to and did he plan it? That is what the prosecution is going to try to prove. I suspect they will lower that expectation and try to get him on a lesser murder charge now.

    And who pressured who? The presiding judge went into excrutiating detail why he decided to allow bail and to be honest I understand why he gave it in the end - and if you listen to the judge he could have gone either way as to the bail application - I changed ny mind several times whilst listening to him. But the conditions are steep - the 1M Rand is exceedingly high by all accounts as is the not drinking aspect as it doesn't appear Oscar was under the influence when he shot Reeva. Still it's not as if he has been found innocent - just that he doesn't have to be locked away before the trial.
    4rkidz and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    When people panic, they are not rational. They don't go through this thought process. Self preservation is not self-absorbed ego. What happened was tragic, and unless there is more information- accepted/proven in the court of law- I am not going to make a judgment on Pistorius.
  9. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that a South African story has such legs in the US.
  10. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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    People love a train wreck.
  11. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I'd be interested in what drives the international fascination in this case, and I'm not asking that in a pseudo-aloof, "I don't care about this story so you shouldn't either" way.
  12. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    I think part of it, and this is going to sound really shallow in the face of someone losing their life and another potentially living with the guilt of a horrible mistake for the rest of their life, is that this is one of those cases that sounds like a murder mystery novel or a tv crime drama. It has the elements - the beautiful victim, the famous suspect, the multitude of clues and potential scenarios, the importance of the floorplan, the differing accounts of what happened, the bumbling detectives, and the opportunity for us to try and figure out the answer to the puzzle. It's Lindbergh, JonBenet, Jeffrey MacDonald, even going back to Constance Kent in the 1800s.

    And given that short of Oscar confessing there will always be some question as to whether he really meant to do it or not, I think this one is likely to be debated for some time - there will no doubt be books written, and before long websites like this.
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he was an Olympian, and a hugely highly profiled one. We heard about Pistorius ALL the time leading up to and during the Olympics. I fully expected to hear updates on his career for years (didn't expect this! That's for sure.) So to some extent- it was a person that the US news was already pretty fascinated with. A freaking murder case was of course going to get coverage.


    (I wonder how long until he goes to trial. That article about the poor conditions for those who don't get bail said the guy had been waiting 2 years for a trial- and living with people with drug resistant TB! That shouldn't be allowed under Human Rights law! Purposefully exposing people to contagious diseases.) Because this is a 'celebrity' I bet it doesn't take 2 years to get a trial.
  14. Cruella

    Cruella New Member

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    Ummm... :lol:
  15. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    From that angle, it's OJ all over again. The star athlete, the beautiful victim, the public trial.

    But I didn't follow OJ at all - for me it's about the puzzle.
  16. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I think it is very similar to OJ. I was too young to follow OJ, but I remember we got pulled from gym class to watch the verdict. We were told it was a 'defining moment in history'. I remember thinking that was kind of silly... but the school administration made sure that every student watched it on TV for 15 minutes that day.
  17. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    In addition to what was already said, we seem to have a thing for blond female crime victims. Jon Benet, Natalie Holloway, Nicole Simpson, Elizabeth Smart. And then I just discovered Princess Diana's funeral was the most watched tv event EVER. I'm sure brunettes get killed but fewer of them show up in the news. Maybe we can't believe anyone would ever kill an attractive blond.
  18. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    snoopy you have a point - in two of the cases I mentioned above, the victims were also blonde - Jeffrey MacDonald's wife and children, and the Lindbergh baby. Sharon Tate would be another.
  19. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Another one that comes to mind - not blonde! - is Lizzie Borden. Not famous and no beautiful victims, but another case that was full of clues, in a classic contained environment where the floorplan once again came into play, the importance of the timeline and witnesses, the potential motives. At the time the gruesomeness and unlikely murderer made headlines, but I believe it has endured because it's another one that arm chair detectives can and do continue to study and debate.
  20. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped and repeatedly raped by a Mormon polygamist in Salt Lake City, and later rescued. She was not murdered (not that you said she was). You're right, definitely a high-profile criminal case involving a blond female. I think some of the interest in that and the Jaycee Dugard cases was that the victims were found long after their kidnappings. The general assumption most people had before then was that a kidnapped person who isn't found within a few weeks won't ever be found alive.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  21. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    The OJ case took about a year to come to trial, didn't it? (ETA: I was wrong, it started earlier than I remembered) The case here is high profile and considering how things have gone so far, I am sure the police and prosecutors will want to make sure that the investigation is done right (or at least looks to have been done right).

    Re famous murder/kidnapping cases - The Black Dahlia was a notorious Hollywood murder with a brunette victim, but that was a long time ago. Lacy Peterson was a brunette, and IIRC Jessica Lunsford was not a blonde. Those are the ones I can recall, and it feels kind of ghoulish to go looking for others. But I agree that certain crime victims seem to be much more interesting to the media than others.
  22. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Meh, ghoulish maybe, but I've long ago stopped apologizing. My mother has never understood how I can read murder mysteries and watch crime dramas because it's all so horrible, when it fact is was her mother who got me into it at a young age - she loved what she called "whodunnits" and I remember many hours watching them on tv with her when I was a child, and going through her entire collection of Agatha Christie novels. But I don't like slasher movies - and I don't think it's a coincidence that it's the same grandmother whose Dell puzzle books fascinated me, logic problems being our favourites.
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there's anything wrong with being interested in either true crime or mysteries and TV crime dramas. The former is just not something I personally feel comfortable reading about, and I'd rather leave the details to others... I did notice did Wikipedia has an entry on Missing white woman syndrome, BTW, which seems relevant to the current discussion here.
  24. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    There is a good program on BET about missing black people, Find Our Missing. I'm glad that someone finally addressed the issue rather than whining, "The media doesn't show what I want them to show."
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  25. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    At this stage you don't have any evidence to base this statement on, so you're just making a fool of yourself.
  26. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Any word on the two cell phones that were found in the toilet room, neither of which were the one used by Pistorius to call his friend? Seems off that a woman apparently takes two phones into the bathroom at 3 am if she's just taking a whiz.
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Heckles - a fan of golden showers. :D
  28. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    1. The phones could've been left in the bathroom the evening before.

    2. Maybe she wanted to do a quick browse of the internet while whizzing.

    3. Could've been just a habit to take the phone with her. Many people are attached to their phones and won't go anywhere without them.
  29. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    If you are sleeping with someone who is bothered by the light from the ipad or smart phone, um, I could see taking them into the bathroom. Weird that she had 2 with her, though. I wonder who they were registered to.
  30. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Is there are credible source for the location of the phones, and that idea that Oscar didn't use either to make calls? (I could see where one he was using might be dropped in the toilet room after he made the first calls after he found her.) The only mention of technologies I've seen to date is that Reeva's iPad was on the bed or on the floor near the bed.
  31. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    On another note, I'm wondering how the process works now. He's been charged with premeditated murder, so the trial (tribunal?) will consider that charge and determine guilty or not guilty. If they decide it was not premeditated and was an accident, will they declare him guilty of that lesser charge at that time? And then what is the punishment for that?

    Because here's what I'm thinking - he's admitted he killed her, so it's just a matter if he meant to do it or not. At some point, he's due to go to jail, length of time tbd.

    So if that's the case, why is he free now? As a confessed killer, shouldn't he have gone straight to jail, with time served to be credited to whatever sentence he eventually gets?

    Or is there a chance that he could somehow dodge jail altogether, in which case yeah, grant bail pending trial.

    :confused:
  32. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    He's confessed but he hasn't been found guilty yet.
  33. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I think the South African law makes that determination.;)
  34. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Gee thanks for that insightful response to my honest question.

    I'm not a lawyer, and certainly not an expert in the laws of South Africa, so I'm just trying to understand why some people who confess to a crime are granted bail until trial, and others are kept in jail with the time credited to whatever sentence is eventually ruled.
  35. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    The two-phones-in-the-toilet-room aspect was mentioned on CNN last night. ABC News says there were two Blackberries, two iPhones, and a fifth phone, the latter of which, according to defense attorneys, was used by Pistorius.
  36. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    ^ That's a lot of phones between two people.
  37. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Maybe it's based on whether the accused is a flight risk or threat to the community, just like any other bail situation? Even if a person confesses, he hasn't been found guilty yet. Lots of people confess without having actually done anything, so the presumption of innocence still stands, I think.

    Pistorius says he called the manager of the housing estate, and asked him to place a call for an ambulance. He says that he also called a private paramedic service. According to his lawyers, there was a fifth phone that Pistorius used to make the calls.

    He had to make the calls from somewhere (I think it's on the record that they were received, I believe), and he didn't use any of the other phones, so there must be a fifth phone. I think I read somewhere that he also called his best friend (first, too, I think) and his sister?
  38. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    I read an article yesterday that said something like the now former lead detective (Botha) testified that he'd been to Pistorious's house before re: a domestic violence issue with another woman. It will be interesting to see if anything more of this comes to light during the trial. Too bad Botha has turned out to be such a disaster.
  39. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    He called his friend, Justin Divaris, but it's unsurprising that his defense team is not highlighting that questionable move. Doesn't make him look good.
  40. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    That's been discussed somewhere back in this thread--he was at a party and slammed a door in a woman's face. The charges were dropped. I think he has a suit filed for malicious prosecution in that case.

    Otherwise, I don't think anyone has uncovered any domestic violence history, and a women he dated for five years has been one of his staunchest defenders,

    Yes, but mentions of the fifth phone in the media always seem to imply that there is something shady about this fifth phone. The police seem to know who he called and when, there is no question that there was another phone at the scene, and it doesn't seem like here's anything being hidden, so :confused:.

    I think the fact that his lawyer got there before the police did looks worse than his calling his friend, although I'm not sure whether that looks worse for him or for the police :shuffle:.