Oscar Pistorius on murder charge

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by skatefan, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. 4rkidz

    4rkidz plotting, planning and travelling

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    Also the reports suggested that whilst he was getting the fan from the balcony Reeva slipped out of bed and went to the toilet.. which is why the noise in the bathroom was after the fact and why he had thought she was still in bed.. also questions about there actually was any type of blood or tissue on the cricket bat - also prior history of domestics or phone records or witnesses would be needed .. in reading all the materials on this all I have found was a previous charge that was dropped years ago against a 19 year girl who refused to leave his house and he slammed the door on her..(which is obviously not okay.. but does that qualify as a history of domestic violence??).. I'm still not convinced it was an accident.. but after listening to the reports today I'm more interested in the forensic evidence..
     
  2. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Her positioning is relevant in that if she wasn't sitting on the toilet, with the door locked, for the standard reason, why was she sitting on it? Was she cowering in fear from a raging idiot?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  3. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    I know some people who have a square toilet. It looks weird because it's a toilet, but it's just like a chair.

    I wonder if she had a history of locking the door when she went to the bathroom.
     
  4. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Really no reason to lock the bathroom door in a household with no young children who could barge in.
     
  5. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    I think there are people who do lock the bathroom door as a habit. But I will bet that is one thing that jumped right out at the police as an oddity.
     
  6. jl

    jl Well-Known Member

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    I'm not 100% sure on how South African law works (though a quick scan tells me that while South Africa embraces both common [UK] and civil [rest of Europe] law, criminal law follows the British system as a general rule), but assuming this is based on the English system, Oscar is arguing that he couldn't form the intent to murder Reeva because he thought someone else that intended harm to him was in there. A mistake of fact. Canada requires a mistake to be made on a reasonable basis, something I'm not sure if SA has.

    The prosecutor can argue that regardless of who's in there, Oscar still shot with the intention to kill, so the mistake of fact is irrelevant. Usually, the only way to justify this is a self-defence argument, which involves trying to prove he had a reasonable apprehension of harm that would trigger him to act in such manner. Hence Oscar's pre-emptive argument that he got death threats.

    It'll be interesting to see what the prosecution's basis for the murder charge is, though.
     
  7. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    There is so much that we don't know about what really happened that I am not going to draw any conclusions. I am always for 'Innocent until proven guilty'.
     
  8. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? Were you really that confused by my post?
     
  9. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Some tidbits from AP articles this morning - testimony at the bail hearing from the lead detective that addresses some of the issues we've been discussing here:

     
  10. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    MSNBC

     
  11. Cruella

    Cruella New Member

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    Just catching up on this morning's reports and the story in the New York Times adds that:

    * The empty holster where Pistorius kept the handgun appears to be on the side of the bed where Reeva was sleeping (her slippers and overnight bag were on that side), so it would have been impossible for him to remove the gun without noticing that she wasn't there -- even in the dark.
     
  12. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    re the distance - on a quiet still night, it might have been possible to hear an argument; the question is whether it was coming from Oscar's home or not.

    re lights in the house - although Oscar claims he didn't turn on any lights, if Reeva was using the bathroom there's a good chance that light was on (if she was hiding, probably not); plus once she was shot, it's likely Oscar started turning on lights as he moved her body and made phone calls. If this was a novel or tv show, the exact timeline would be critical.
     
  13. morqet

    morqet Well-Known Member

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    The defence have countered this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-bail-hearing-day-two-live-coverage
    This has a good summary of all the claims & counter claims that have been made in court today.
     
  14. Cruella

    Cruella New Member

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    Oh, interesting. Will check out that link, thanks!
     
  15. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    Guilty !!!
    I just hope they dont pull an O.J Simpson on him.

    Murder is Murder !
    cant believe some of the media's bias and sensationalist reporting
    twsiting it as a sad end of a passionate love
     
  16. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Seems strange that Oscar called a number of entities from his mobile phone except 112, South Africa's equivalent for 911. Wonder if he was trying to stall?
     
  17. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Judge and executioner all in one, eh? Where'd you get your law degree?
     
  18. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Someone brought up earlier that it's possible that the police are not the first people you'd call, depending on how the police are viewed locally. And not that this justifies it, but I do think that celebrities sometimes think differently because more is at stake - for example you might call your lawyer before you call the police.

    When Heath Ledger died, I remember a lot of discussion about who was called when - he was found my a masseuse who had arrived for an appointment and thought he was sleeping. When he didn't wake up, instead of calling 911 or an ambulance, her first call was to one of his celebrity friends, who wasn't in town but immediately dispatched her personal security. I can see why the masseuse did that - if she knew him well enough to know that he might be passed out on drugs, she probably wanted to protect him, and thus called someone who would know what to do. It sounds like the celebrity friend's - it was Mary Kate Olsen - first instinct was to protect his reputation, and thus secure the scene and provide support to the masseuse. Then, apparently realizing there could be a bigger danger, the masseuse called 91 (or maybe Olsen told her to), and the paramedics arrived at the same time as Olsen's security team.

    All this to say that Oscar might have called people he thought could help her quickly and potentially discreetly first, and people he knew he could trust. Again not saying it's the right thing to do, but what the rest of us would do, based on where we live and who we are, might be very different than what others would do in a similar situation.
     
    CanuckSk8r and (deleted member) like this.
  19. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I understand a mistrust of police, but 112, much like 911, is a link to ambulance services in addition to law enforcement. It seems that Oscar may have been stalling getting an ambulance, and her death may have resulted from that. Did he not want the victim to tell her tale?

    Heath Ledger's massage therapist didn't act wisely, but I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. Ledger was a known drug abuser, and therefore his massage therapist may have underestimated the seriousness of the situation in front of her. Pistorius, on the other hand, was facing a woman who had been shot at close range four times. How could that not require an ambulance? Did he delay action because he was too busy thinking about how he was going to explain this one?
     
  20. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    Except in this case he's proven to be guilty. It's just the level of premeditation in the act that is being/going to be judged, as the fact is he murdered his girlfriend
     
  21. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Actually, that's not a fact; it's an interpretation, and though it may well be true, it's too soon to consider it fact (especially considering that there many things we don't know yet). The one fact that everyone agrees upon is that he killed his girlfriend. Whether he murdered her remains to be established in a court of law, and thus, he is indeed innocent until proven guilty.
     
  22. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    He says he did call for help:

    I don't know what Netcare is, but it sounds like they told him to take her himself. The question might be around response times - if his home is close to a hospital, it might have been faster to take her himself.

    We also don't know the status of the doctor that arrived - perhaps he has some credentials as a first responder?

    What puzzles me is that anyone would advise him to move the body. I would expect them to stay on the phone with him to gather more info, and help him try to stop bleeding or help her breathe for example. But I'm not a medical expert.

    As for Heath Ledger, the fact that he was a drug abuser is part of my point. Those close to him knew that, and it informed the decisions they made. Similarly, Oscar's decisions would have been based on what he knew about the dangers to himself and her, who he could trust, what steps he had to take to protect himself etc.

    Maybe I watch too much tv, but when I see the way fictional police treat spouses of victims, it makes me think that if I found someone close to me injured or dead, I'd lawyer up very, very fast. Even more so if it was an accident that I caused.
     
  23. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    thanks, you're right. I missed the kill-murder lesson in my English class:p
     
  24. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    He apparently called his best friend first, then the caretaker of his estate. He called Netcare Hospital sometime after. It's never wise to directly call a hospital over an emergency because they aren't the best, fastest source to dispatch the appropriate responders. That's why pretty much every medical facility answers the telephone with the greeting, "If this is an emergency, hang up now and dial 911."

    Pistorius' actions following the shooting, including the apparent use of the cricket bat and damaging the crime scene, amount to a big comedy of errors. The question is whether those errors were intentional.
     
  25. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Do we know if it's common for people in South Africa to call hospitals over emergency services, though?
     
  26. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    They've had a centralized emergency management system, much like 911 in the US, for many years.

    Reminds me of traveling overseas and catching reruns of William Shatner's Rescue 911, which was huge hit abroad for some reason. The local broadcasts always had a frequent voiceover and screen flashes with the instruction, "The emergency number in (country) is (number)." Some will even dub over or silence the mention of "911" in the show. Localizing of American products abroad is a tricky thing indeed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  27. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Right. Self-induced drug overdose is COMPLETELY different from shooting someone else 4 times. They wanted to protect Ledger's reputation and it's something that's possible to cover up if they got him to a hospital quickly and discreetly. Turns it out was far too late by that time, but I can kind of see the logic there.

    Murder scene involving a gun? Very hard to cover that up...

    Indeed.
     
  28. Wiery

    Wiery Well-Known Member

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    I think locking the bathroom door is a very "female" thing to do; maybe men do it too, but the men in my life (husband, sons, I sure wish they would close the door!) seem not to care who sees them take a whiz... I have always locked the bathroom door, and do so even if I am alone in the house or it's the middle of the night. It's ingrained as I absolutely HATE having someone walk in. So, to me, it's not unreasonable or necessarily suspicious that she locked the door.
     
  29. Wiery

    Wiery Well-Known Member

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    I am waiting to see if reports emerge regarding Pistorius' relationship with Reeva; friends' observations, whether he was overly possessive or abusive, or if he had a past history of abusive relationships.

    There's just so much we don't know at this point.
     
  30. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    I leave the door wide open. My fiance closes it, and locks it sometimes still. :lol: I only close it when I don't want the cat to come in and bother me. So YMMV, but I agree that it isn't THAT unusual...