Oscar Pistorius on murder charge

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by skatefan, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    In the article I read, the prosecutor mentioned the possibility of a lesser (than premeditated murder) charge sometime later. It means the prosecutor does not even fully believe this was premeditated.
  2. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    There have been two recent cases in the news that I can recall where the father killed the son because he thought the son was a burglar. Accidents do happen.
  3. CanuckSk8r

    CanuckSk8r New Member

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    Purely speculation of course - I am assuming the noises coming from the washroom were not typical sounds of usage, I am assuming there were thuds or other loud noises. Perhaps she fell/tripped hit her head (creating the head wound and potential explaination for the shot through her hand from her holding it), those sounds sounded like an intruder to him and things went from there.

    As for it being unlikely that he not think of Reeva first when waking - sure if they lived there that would be more likely. I live by myself, when my house makes strange noises in the night, I grab my glasses and go into panicked ninja mode. When I have had house guests and my house makes strange noises, I grab my glasses and go into panicked ninja mode - even sleeping in a different room it takes me some time to remember that there is someone else in the house.

    As a disclaimer, I am not on either the guilty or not-guilty side of this tragedy. I try to look at all possible scenarios.
  4. duane

    duane New Member

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    What a ridiculous story! If not for a dead woman, it would be comical.

    I don't buy the story, nor his claim of being so fearful of an intruder. I think he is simply using the country's high crime statistics to his advantage..
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  5. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    This is why people shouldn't keep guns at their bedside. Even people who think they wake up 100% alert, rarely do.
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  6. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Ironically, he added to those crime statistics.
  7. Gazpacho

    Gazpacho Well-Known Member

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    If it's true that Reeva's skull was crushed--something that has only been reported in the media and not court documents--then Oscar is as innocent as OJ. You can't crush someone's skull by bashing a bathroom door with a cricket bat.

    Even if Reeva's skull wasn't crushed, I still think he's guilty based on the affidavit. I can't say if he's guilty of premeditated murder because I don't know how the term is defined in that jurisdiction. But no way was this an accidental mistaken intruder killing. Too many pieces don't make sense, as pointed out by others in this thread.
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  8. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    hmm.. parts of this just don't make sense.. I struggle to understand why he wouldn't realize she wasn't in the bed - unless he was drugged up and really panicked.. I do understand the level of vulnerability of him without his legs and living in the situation where he is.. however, by choosing to have a loaded weapon and choosing to use it makes him guilty.. so then the issue just becomes .. was it premeditated? I can't see how this is truly accidental when he chooses to have a loaded gun and is totally irresponsible in its usage.. My concern though with the legalities - is it in SA whereby if you are not guilty of premeditated then you are off scott free??? Someone told me that at work today.. that all his defense has to do is prove it was NOT pre meditated..?? :confused:
  9. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Having seen the diagram of the bathroom and that Reeva was sitting on the toilet, far away from the door, the skull bashing makes even less sense.
  10. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    If he'd claimed that he was on sleeping medication, that might have been believable. Doesn't seem that he's gone that route.
  11. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    Someone suggested he had roid rage (steroids, not hemeroids).

    He shot through a closed door 4 times and hit her 3 times? And one was a deadly shot? Maybe he's in the wrong sport.
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  12. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Eh, not really that impressive when you consider that he was at close range with a captive victim. He may have fired through the door a few times and/or beat the door with the cricket bat, and then looked through the holes in the door to position the fatal shot.
  13. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Sometime before dawn, Pistorius said he awoke, and walking only on his stumps, pulled a fan in from an open balcony and closed it.

    So he wasn't awakened abruptly by a noise in the bathroom; he may still have been groggy, but he was capable of at least some coherent, conscience thought.

    “I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes,” he said. “I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9 mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.”

    So he went to the bed to get his gun and didn't check to see if she was there? Chivalry is truly dead.
  14. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    If he's quite mobile without the prosthetics, I don't think he would have mentioned feeling so afraid. Even if he's able to stand on his stumps, the other person would probably be a lot taller than him, and have a lot of leverage.

    My thoughts exactly. The ballistics, if the evidence is intact, should be clear at what height he was shooting from. Even if they have to put the door back together, they can still figure it out if there are bulletholes in the bathroom anywhere.
  15. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    Well, I suppose hemorrhoids *could* make some people really nuts.

    Thank you for a great laugh!!
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  16. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    That is what made me suspicious of the police in this case. Lots of men with his personality type and history would be easy to frame for something like this.

    I remember hearing from "experts" when Nicole Brown Simpson died about how her fatal wound was consistent with a domestic violence killing.

    This killing seems like overkill. While it's possible that it might be domestic violence, four shots after a bludgeoning seems a bit unusual for this type of killing. Usually it's one weapon or another, but not two.
  17. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    No one needed to frame him. He shot her. The only question is whether he did it knowingly or not.

    Forensic evidence can take months, even years to process. Most police officers can do the basics (blood spatter, angle of shot, etc) on their own on the spot. If the cops waited for all the forensic evidence to be processed in most cases, very few people would be arrested.

    As for the forensic science labs, they're overwhelmed with evidence that police and attorneys want examined.

    The National Institute of Justice estimates a backlog of 200,000 to 300,000 DNA samples awaiting analysis in crime labs around the country.

    People also have developed an unrealistic sense of how long it takes to investigate a case, said Patricia McFeeley, a forensic pathologist with the University of New Mexico Health Sciences Center.

    On the TV dramas, toxicology results are available almost instantaneously. That's why in real life, family members of a victim often cannot understand why it takes months to obtain a death certificate, McFeeley said.


    Forensics: Fact Vs. fiction. TV shows make crime solving look easy but in real life it's not so simple

    And that's when forensic analysis is available. Most police do not have access to anything even close to what they have on TV.
  18. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    I saw photos of his washroom. I have never seen a square toilet before. I don't know how comfortable that would be. And I always hit the toilet when I get out of the shower, so I can imagine some really bad bruises if my toilet were quad-shaped.
  19. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I'll be the one to mention it, as everyone else is pussy-footing around it. If Reeva was sitting on the toilet relieving herself, and Oscar shot her while she was still sitting on there, there should have been some crucial evidence left behind.
  20. Gazpacho

    Gazpacho Well-Known Member

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    Unless she was straining and couldn't get it out. I don't think Reeva being or not being on the toilet itself is material to the case. There isn't much question that she was in the toilet room for whatever reason.
  21. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    Also the reports suggested that whilst he was getting the fan from the balcony Reeva slipped out of bed and went to the toilet.. which is why the noise in the bathroom was after the fact and why he had thought she was still in bed.. also questions about there actually was any type of blood or tissue on the cricket bat - also prior history of domestics or phone records or witnesses would be needed .. in reading all the materials on this all I have found was a previous charge that was dropped years ago against a 19 year girl who refused to leave his house and he slammed the door on her..(which is obviously not okay.. but does that qualify as a history of domestic violence??).. I'm still not convinced it was an accident.. but after listening to the reports today I'm more interested in the forensic evidence..
  22. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Her positioning is relevant in that if she wasn't sitting on the toilet, with the door locked, for the standard reason, why was she sitting on it? Was she cowering in fear from a raging idiot?
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  23. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    I know some people who have a square toilet. It looks weird because it's a toilet, but it's just like a chair.

    I wonder if she had a history of locking the door when she went to the bathroom.
  24. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Really no reason to lock the bathroom door in a household with no young children who could barge in.
  25. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    I think there are people who do lock the bathroom door as a habit. But I will bet that is one thing that jumped right out at the police as an oddity.
  26. jl

    jl Well-Known Member

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    I'm not 100% sure on how South African law works (though a quick scan tells me that while South Africa embraces both common [UK] and civil [rest of Europe] law, criminal law follows the British system as a general rule), but assuming this is based on the English system, Oscar is arguing that he couldn't form the intent to murder Reeva because he thought someone else that intended harm to him was in there. A mistake of fact. Canada requires a mistake to be made on a reasonable basis, something I'm not sure if SA has.

    The prosecutor can argue that regardless of who's in there, Oscar still shot with the intention to kill, so the mistake of fact is irrelevant. Usually, the only way to justify this is a self-defence argument, which involves trying to prove he had a reasonable apprehension of harm that would trigger him to act in such manner. Hence Oscar's pre-emptive argument that he got death threats.

    It'll be interesting to see what the prosecution's basis for the murder charge is, though.
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    There is so much that we don't know about what really happened that I am not going to draw any conclusions. I am always for 'Innocent until proven guilty'.
  28. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? Were you really that confused by my post?
  29. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Some tidbits from AP articles this morning - testimony at the bail hearing from the lead detective that addresses some of the issues we've been discussing here:

  30. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    MSNBC

  31. Cruella

    Cruella New Member

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    Just catching up on this morning's reports and the story in the New York Times adds that:

    * The empty holster where Pistorius kept the handgun appears to be on the side of the bed where Reeva was sleeping (her slippers and overnight bag were on that side), so it would have been impossible for him to remove the gun without noticing that she wasn't there -- even in the dark.
  32. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    re the distance - on a quiet still night, it might have been possible to hear an argument; the question is whether it was coming from Oscar's home or not.

    re lights in the house - although Oscar claims he didn't turn on any lights, if Reeva was using the bathroom there's a good chance that light was on (if she was hiding, probably not); plus once she was shot, it's likely Oscar started turning on lights as he moved her body and made phone calls. If this was a novel or tv show, the exact timeline would be critical.
  33. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    The defence have countered this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-bail-hearing-day-two-live-coverage
    This has a good summary of all the claims & counter claims that have been made in court today.
  34. Cruella

    Cruella New Member

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    Oh, interesting. Will check out that link, thanks!
  35. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    Guilty !!!
    I just hope they dont pull an O.J Simpson on him.

    Murder is Murder !
    cant believe some of the media's bias and sensationalist reporting
    twsiting it as a sad end of a passionate love
  36. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Seems strange that Oscar called a number of entities from his mobile phone except 112, South Africa's equivalent for 911. Wonder if he was trying to stall?
  37. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Judge and executioner all in one, eh? Where'd you get your law degree?
  38. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Someone brought up earlier that it's possible that the police are not the first people you'd call, depending on how the police are viewed locally. And not that this justifies it, but I do think that celebrities sometimes think differently because more is at stake - for example you might call your lawyer before you call the police.

    When Heath Ledger died, I remember a lot of discussion about who was called when - he was found my a masseuse who had arrived for an appointment and thought he was sleeping. When he didn't wake up, instead of calling 911 or an ambulance, her first call was to one of his celebrity friends, who wasn't in town but immediately dispatched her personal security. I can see why the masseuse did that - if she knew him well enough to know that he might be passed out on drugs, she probably wanted to protect him, and thus called someone who would know what to do. It sounds like the celebrity friend's - it was Mary Kate Olsen - first instinct was to protect his reputation, and thus secure the scene and provide support to the masseuse. Then, apparently realizing there could be a bigger danger, the masseuse called 91 (or maybe Olsen told her to), and the paramedics arrived at the same time as Olsen's security team.

    All this to say that Oscar might have called people he thought could help her quickly and potentially discreetly first, and people he knew he could trust. Again not saying it's the right thing to do, but what the rest of us would do, based on where we live and who we are, might be very different than what others would do in a similar situation.
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  39. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I understand a mistrust of police, but 112, much like 911, is a link to ambulance services in addition to law enforcement. It seems that Oscar may have been stalling getting an ambulance, and her death may have resulted from that. Did he not want the victim to tell her tale?

    Heath Ledger's massage therapist didn't act wisely, but I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. Ledger was a known drug abuser, and therefore his massage therapist may have underestimated the seriousness of the situation in front of her. Pistorius, on the other hand, was facing a woman who had been shot at close range four times. How could that not require an ambulance? Did he delay action because he was too busy thinking about how he was going to explain this one?
  40. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    Except in this case he's proven to be guilty. It's just the level of premeditation in the act that is being/going to be judged, as the fact is he murdered his girlfriend