New York Times article: Ice Dance and its appeal (or lack therof)

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    AxelAnnie and (deleted member) like this.
  2. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Nothing like the rehashing of the usual Six-Pack John non-arguments. Definitely what the world needs. :rolleyes:
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  3. PRlady

    PRlady aspiring tri-national

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    Nice story for non-fans, without sensationalism. Hopefully closer to Sochi someone who knows will write an article for the NYT explaining the components of the dances and especially the PCS scores, give people something to learn rather than just talk about how mysterious and random it all is.
  4. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to bore you, Ziggy :rolleyes: but I liked the actual interviews with Meryl and Charlie and thought it was an interesting take. Agree with PRLady about how hopefully someone will go more in depth as we get to the Olympics.
  5. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I think it was being discussed recently if anyone thought d/s were favorites and Vancouver and here jere longman says they were but no publication at all were predicting d/s for gold with their dual problems of having the worst program of all time as of 2010 and being so injured that they lost both od and fd to f/s at euros.

    I can't believe the words level or twizzle were never used once! Lol. But it makes sense as his views are like most American writers that ice dance is a big joke and all false and results are based on parking spot proximity even an American team being the frontrunner for gold was impossible and never going to happen!
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting take?

    The story on Davis and White is indeed interesting but those kind of ignorant broski statements are just beyond :rolleyes:.

    It's rhumba and foxtrot. He can't even spell them right.

    I would expect a journalist writing on a subject to research it properly first (pie in the sky, I know). He clearly has no clue what he's talking about. I mean Domnina/Shabalin supposedly being gold medal favourites in 2010. :rofl:
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
  7. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Rumba is just as right as rhumba but the article is stupid.
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Rumba isn't an Olympic sport though. Rhumba, on the other hand, is a compulsory dance. ;)
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    True ISU rules and official spelling is Rhumba. I was also thinking of dance in general but its fitting for that article to miss.
  10. TwizzlerS

    TwizzlerS Well-Known Member

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    Loved the part about their moms complimentary vision.
  11. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the best parts of the article are about their Moms and Charlie's one-liner, "... what about me? Are you saying I'm not a unique beauty? :lol:

    The reference to ice dance as having a "brittle legitimacy," and being mocked are old-hat these days. Would be more interesting if the writer referred to such views in an historical context and then discussed how those views have changed and why. The article totally misses the boat re the extraordinary landscape that has been ice dance in the era of Meryl & Charlie, and Tessa & Scott -- an era of North American dominance unfortunately characterized by bickering among uber fans more than by appreciation of the drive for excellence that both these teams exemplify. Oh boy, what a great story that is! Dare we dream that NBC will do a better job as the climax of this journey for these 2 remarkable teams unfolds?

    IJS and quads IMO have much more of a "brittle legitimacy" than ice dance ever had.
  12. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    Well Dom/Shabs were the reigning World gold medalists leading into the 09/10 cycle, and they did (deservedly, IMO) win the CD in Vancouver. And despite their other crappy dances they walked limped away with the bronze. Those types of results don't really help the credibility of ice dance.
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Well, how D/S ever became reigning World gold medalists in the first place has more to do with politics and maybe, uh ... perhaps a bit of brittle legitimacy. :p
  14. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    Weeelllll....I think we have a sport that needs more fans, and the more esoteric we get in major newspapers, the more we alienate potential people who might fall in love with figure skating. I can also sympathize with a writer who just can't help but leave in a turn of phrase that catches their fancy. I thought it was a nice piece.
  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    No question it's nice as articles about fs are so rare as to be forgotten relics. Have to either laugh at or bemoan the fact that in the U.S. fs seems newsworthy only every four years. Again yes it seems we true fans should be thankful for every scrap that comes our way. But there also should be no harm in pointing out failings in coverage and hoping for better, and suggesting how the coverage could improve.

    Yes there's always hope, even as the sport and its neglected fans limp our way toward more, much more than mockery, more than the whack heard around the world, and more than that ubiquitous brittle legitimacy tag.
  16. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    But no one at the time in any publication at all was predicting d/s for gold. They really bombed euros losing od and fd to a team not even considered in the running for an Olympic medal. Winning because of the cd.

    NBC still doesn't understand ice dance at all thinking russia has any power or influence to win a medal for a russia team. Depicting North Americans as underdogs for some reason against a Russia machine.
  17. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Given how many times NA teams have won ice dance medals vs how many times Russian teams have won ice dance medals, maybe it's not surprising that NBC feels that way.
  18. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    The real problem with ice dance - for fans and non-fans of skating - is that no one can look at a step sequence or a lift and tell you what level it is. You see an amazing and fluid dance that moves you, and it scores low because of levels. Then a robotic and boring dance that bores you, and it wins medals. And sadly it's not something you can train yourself to spot like with spin levels and jump under-rotations. Even commentators have no idea how good or bad a performance will score until the marks come out.

    I mean name me one commentator who made a single comment about a mistake in the compulsory dance portion of the SD this season, and yet look at the protocols of the top 10 ice dancers, and it's littered with NNN and NYN. Why? Hell if I know. And no one tries to explain it on TV because even they don't know
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  19. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It kind of is based on the results of the past 4 years even the Olympics 2010. It's not even mathematically possible for a Russian team to beat DW or VM and that's been the case for years now!
  20. gofigure

    gofigure Active Member

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    The person who wrote this article has no clue what they are talking about - this person does not know a twizzle from a fizzle. NBC needs to step it up with qualified reporting if it expects knowledgeable skating fans to take it seriously next month.
  21. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I'm still :lol: that the 2002 scandal at SLC was apparently all about the ice dance results!
  22. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Quads have a brittle legitimacy? :confused:

    Agreed about Charlie's line.

    At least the injury was acknowledged as a hindering factor for them.

    Have there been that many NA teams who were unfairly deprived of medals over the years? If they were to look at, say, ski jumping medal tables, would that also lead to arguments about the unfairness of it all?

    Of course, when NA teams are winning, clearly ice dance is legitimate and the scoring system works. This is also true for gymnastics, I believe.

    We all know that figure skating is a political sport, but unlike NBC, I don't believe it all originates on one side of the Atlantic.
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  23. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    And I didn't say I believed that either. Just pointing out that those not familiar with the intricacies of ice dancing :sekret: :bribe: might look at the list of past results and conclude that North Americans were being treated unfairly.
  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    No, you didn't. It just annoys me to see so much coverage that doesn't bother to differentiate between politicking and legitimate outcomes.
  25. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    I was interested to see what the NYT would come up with in the article. I am no expert on dance and cannot pick up factual errors like you guys, so could you please tell me, where are the Davis and White dads? :shuffle: That shows how little I follow dance.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  26. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    FS is a mommy sport and not a daddy sport. How many interviews of daddies, who are not part of athletes coaching team have you seen so far.
  27. Finnice

    Finnice Well-Known Member

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    Kiira Korpi´s father Rauno Korpi, who is a former ice hockey coach, has been interwiewed many times about FS. He often says that it is much harder than ice hockey and the skaters really train like crazies. :hat1: Was not Trankov´s father also part of the sport?
  28. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    It seems he is famous on his own right, great to know.
  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    There's also Danny Kwan...

    Valentina Marchei's father was an Olympic marathoner; she's said in the past that he was too nervous to come and watch her compete very often, but that she does go to him for advice and support.

    There are some past skaters and/or current coaches who are involved in their children's training to varying extents (e.g. Nikolai Morozov, Ilia Kulik, Didier Lucine, Jun Ge).
  30. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Some knowledgeable commentators would have a pretty good idea -- Tracy Wilson, Judy Blumberg, Tanith Belbin.

    However, the networks are more interested in gearing their commentary toward a few million casual viewers who don't know one edge from another and don't care, so the coverage focuses more on human interest and obvious errors or obvious strengths that can be pointed out without detailed explanation to viewers with no prior knowledge.

    Those commentators can make pretty good estimations of which teams will be in medal contention, top 10, lower ranks. They may know for sure or have a good idea what levels were called, but until the scores are finalized and in the computer -- including the PCS -- they can't do the math on the fly to predict accurately which of several closely matched teams will come out ahead. So why guess out loud and risk being proved wrong?

    And the networks do like to maintain suspense, especially in supporting the chances of the home team(s).

    So the commentators are not encouraged to provide a detailed analysis.

    We thousands of more interested fans who would like learn more are out of luck when it comes to network commentary.
  31. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean? Before Shabalin's injury, they were one of the best teams in the world, competing at that time.

    That is true of any sport that is judged, though. It's the same in gymnastics or diving. And even in Six-pack Joe favourite's sport football, you can see a goal being scored and then the referee raises the offside flag and everybody cries and it's all unfair and about politics and bribes.

    Maybe TV networks should hire people who know what they are talking about then? Would be great. Now I can't specifically recall a comment about the compulsory levels but I definitely can recall Polish and Russian commentators making comments about specific details. Most English-speaking commentators I heard totally suck though (PJ Kwong deserves a honourable mention for actually caring, she's lovely).

    Having said that, as gkelly said, I am sure that there are commentators who do know. However, they most likely get orders from above not to go into technical details.

    Since according to the journalist, ice dance is a FEMININE GAY NOT MASCULINE ILLEGITIMATE NOT REAL SPORT, it would make sense that he would be interested in mums and not dads. :p
  32. PRlady

    PRlady aspiring tri-national

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    You guys, there's an article about ice dance in the New York Times. It's not written snarkily but attempts to get at some of the history and issues with a focus on the US #1 team. It's not written for us but for somewhat literate but not-knowledgeable people who read the NYTimes sports page.

    How is this a bad thing? The good commentators who were dancers themselves will hopefully be used in NBC coverage or phluff pieces. In the meantime, for those of us who lament that figure skating in the US is always too fixated on ladies, this is something of a corrective and in our most important newspaper.

    Take a step back and say thank you to the New York Times. ;)
  33. RobinA

    RobinA New Member

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    Gotta agree. I was thrilled to see an ice dance article in the NYT. At first I hated the whole "So You Think You Can Dance" :rofl: comparison and thought it insulted the ice dancers who spend their LIVES perfecting their sport far from television noteriety. However, if that is an attempt to interest the many fans of the cheesy dance shows and some small percetage of those fans take an interest in figure skating through this channel, hey, its a net gain.
  34. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It is snark. Virtue and moir should be favored because zueva's parking spot is closer to their spots?
  35. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    PRLady and RobinA, thank you, you expressed better than I did why I started this thread. I skate ice dance now, coached by a current Nationals competitor. It was GREAT to finally see ANY article focusing on the dance event and telling the folks in the US that "hey, you should pay attention to this. Also fun to hear from Meryl and Charlie. Not every article has to be aimed at the "discriminating" fan...
  36. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Agree with those who point out that we should be happy that figure skating and specifically ice dancing scored a feature article in a major news outlet. It's not a PhD level discussion of the nuances of ice dance and how it is judged, but then again this isn't the place for that. It's interesting and colourful, balanced, gives a good introduction of what the sport is about, and helps build momentum going into the Olys. I don't even mind the reference to DWTS - that show remains hugely popular in the US, and if the connection gets a few more people interested in ice dance then that's a good thing, no?
  37. FiveRinger

    FiveRinger Well-Known Member

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    Well said and I agree. I enjoyed the article.

    We have so many folks on this forum, many who are strongly opinionated and extremely articulate. Perhaps you all might take up freelance writing in your spare time?
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  38. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Is it really an article about ice dance? It's mostly fluff and shows total ignorance of ice dance as a sport or any details of it all. It mentions injuries but has no connection to how it could negatively affect a team because of the sports technical demands in twizzles or lifts or anything. You get no idea of the sport outside of DW and VM and what is making them successful. Is their success due to training with Marina Zueva and then judges choose the team whose parking space is closest to hers?
  39. CassAgain

    CassAgain Active Member

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    Casey, let the parking space thing go; it's clearly tongue in cheek.
  40. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Not when its written by Jere Longman!