New U.S. Pair: Rockne Brubaker & Lindsay Davis

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    I think Lindsay and Rockne seem to have similar body types which might make them match well looks wise. Neither are long limbed or slim-hipped so they might end up looking good on the ice. Rockne does not need to bulk up. He's very athletic with very strong legs and upper body.

    A girl's weight does factor in but not as much as some may think. Yes she does need to be strong but most importantly she has to have excellent technique to assist the lift. If the girl plays her role well to assist and lock in the lift (including twists) then her weight will only matter on things like maximizing height on a twist.

    Two perfect examples of girls pair prowess can be found in Canadian ladies. Paige Lawrence just bombs into her lifts and gets up there almost on her own. On the other hand, Jessica Dube is a very heavy lift in the sense that the boy has to do most of the work. Duhamel even falls into this category.

    So net net a new pair like D/B can work if they are just a good match in body type, goals and most importantly technique.
  2. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Does Linsday still skate singles?
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    She hasn't competed in singles since (I believe) her JGP in the fall of 2010. She was entered in Senior Ladies for the 2010-11 and 2011-12 qualifying seasons but WD from her Regional both times.

    Rock2 brings up a very good point about the female pair partner's responsibility in assisting with the lifts that has more to do with technique than her actual weight.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your points Rock2, in your #121 post (and I doubt it means you are affiliated with Rockne, despite the similarity of your user name ;)).

    Maybe you also viewed the Felicia Beck YAS trio performance of Enticement, where it’s obvious that Rockne and Lindsay look quite good together on the ice. ITA that Rockne is not a puny underweight guy incapable of lifting his pairs partner. In the vid, he had no trouble lifting Lindsay (he did it twice too, even though they weren’t overhead lifts). I also agree with you that Rockne and Lindsay appear to have similar body types, altho’ Lindsay is very womanly and Rockne is very manly. The choreo and performance for the YAS challenge was intriguing/ enticing. Ha ha, maybe Lindsay and Rockne might consider using the music again for a future program (perhaps an exhibition?) – I wonder the name of the music they used? The choreography actually reminds me of George Balanchine’s famous choreography for Apollo, with music by Stravinsky. Of course in the Apollo ballet, the male heartthrob dances with three ballerinas:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kr00uM_Z-A

    I’d also like to point out that in the Felicia Beck video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF4SjCfl_tk
    Lindsay performs a lovely layback spin, with aesthetically pleasing positions. Truthfully, what’s not to like? I don’t get the agonizing/ over focus on Lindsay’s weight. That was never brought up to this degree with her other partnerings! She’s not overweight! And as Rock2 points out, Rockne is a strong, capable and experienced pairs partner. They seem to have good potential and as Rockne mentioned, they were both previously trained by Todd Sand, and so have a similar movement style. That’s also apparent in the YAS video.

    Another good point by Rock2 which should be obvious is that a guy does not do all the work in lifts. His partner must assist in being lifted by using her core strength. Excellent point also, re Rockne and Lindsay both having relatively short limbs – which seems to visually make them match up quite well with each other, perhaps even better than with their former partners. I think the fact of her short height and relatively short limbs may also be one of the reasons why many are seemingly focusing more on Lindsay’s womanly assets, which should be viewed with a great deal more appreciation and celebration, IMHO.

    No, my views don’t mean I think their skating will have the power to stamp out hunger and bring about world peace. ;)

    Re possible music selections for Davis/Brubaker, what about something jazzy from Dave Brubeck? His Things Ain’t What They Used to Be seems apropos: :D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_461ul51fc Part 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSqCkDgI8Ds Part 2
  5. Sk8tn

    Sk8tn New Member

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    Based on the YAS clip, could the US actually have a "voidy" pair team?
  6. acraven

    acraven Active Member

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    At least some of the music seems to be from "The Sorcerer's Apprentice", to which Stephanie Stiegler and John Zimmerman had a memorable free skate choreagraphed, I think, by Peter Oppegard.

    ETA: Or not; ~tapdancer's probably correct. I should stay out of discussions involving music ID!
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  7. Lacey

    Lacey Well-Known Member

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    This is exquisite. Did Felicia make it up or did they all 3 do it? Someone should do choreo, and they could pick this up and stretch it into a program!

    Very glad to see Lindsay in action, and, ta da, there she is with Rockne. She's lurvely and they look great together!
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Felicia Beck choreographed this trio number as part of the choreography competition she entered (Young Artists Showcase) in November 2011.

    Thanks to micronrd for finding and posting this video earlier in this thread on 2/21!
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  9. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    I believe the music from the Felicia Beck YAS video was "Night on Bald Mountain". Exciting piece of music, always.

    Rockne and Lindsay looked great together there...really looking forward to seeing them as a pair, can't help it, I adore Rockne and I've so missed seeing him in competition.
  10. Clarice

    Clarice Active Member

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    Yes, tapdancer is right. The music is "Night on Bald Mountain" or "A Night on the Bare Mountain", depending on how you translate it, by Modest Mussorgsky. The orchestral version by Rimsky-Korsakov is known by many people because it was featured in Disney's Fantasia. (Besides, the music is identified on the youtube page. ;) )

    I, too, think they look good together, and can't wait to see how they progress!
  11. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    nm
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  12. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    I was replying to someone else who brought it up. It's a realistic issue in the world of high-level pairs, and probably worth mentioning in a thread about a potential pairing.

    Not sure what you mean. I never said she wasn't. She looks very normal to me.

    You're confusing me with another poster. I'm certainly not the only one who spoke about this topic.

    That was not me who referred to Lindsay as "blocky". Again, I'm convinced you don't really remember my posts, yet you're saying I contradicted myself. :lol: I'm always up for good debate, but there's no point if you don't even know what I said. I'm not "overly concerned about size", I'm just trying to reply to what you said and make sure my words aren't being mixed up with someone else's.

    Again, you've confused me with another poster. I believe I discussed this issue in a tasteful manner. Lindsay's a small, strong, healthy looking girl, and as I've said before, her body type is refreshing in a discipline where girls are often very thin, sometimes unnaturally so. I really think you're missing the point... There are next to no criticisms of Lindsay's body type in this thread. On the contrary, I think people are hoping that this pair can develop without her having to stray from her "natural, healthy size". It would be a refreshing thing to see in a world where they are sometimes added pressures on the pair girl to get smaller the shorter the pair guy is. It would be naive to believe this isn't sometimes an issue in pair skating today with the technical demands of the sport being so high. Sound technique can erase some size concerns for pair teams, but focus on technique and basics can get somewhat thrown out the window when a pair is trying to gel immediately. Hopefully this pair has enough time so that size isn't an issue.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  13. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    True, Rockne's definitely not a puny, rail-thin pair guy by any means, but he still might have to bulk up. He did mention while skating with Marley that he had gotten rid of some of his bulk (10 lbs of muscle, I believe) because she was so tiny. Only he knows what type of training he has done in the time between his partnerships and where he is at this point. Hopefully he can put on muscle quickly if need be.

    I agree with the rest of your post though about the importance of sound technique and that in many cases, it's much more important than size difference. In addition to your examples, Marley is another one-- She didn't have great core strength in lifts and had some technical issues on the twist, which gave them some difficulties on these elements despite the fact that she was very short. It doesn't matter how tiny you are if you don't hold your weight well in lifts.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  14. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    A message board isn't about world peace though. :lol: A forum without "negativity" and realistic thoughts and concerns is merely a cheer forum. Like most other people, I wish this pair well, but that doesn't mean we can't have thoughtful discussion.


    You're right, I am getting a little defensive, because you're mixing my comments in with someone else's. :lol: I mentioned some of Lindsay's assets a few pages back, but you twisted my sentence into a total negative.


    Here's an example. Do you think it was easy for Marley, a young skater with little experience and zero pairs experience to be quickly thrown into a partnership with a highly experienced, mid-20s pair skater who had immediate goals of going to Worlds/Olympics? No, of course not. These are humans, not machines, and they are basically being put in a situation where they are trying to fill the shoes of a previous partner. But as I said before, because Lindsay knows how Sr pairs works and isn't a "starstruck teen", the hope is that this situation won't be that intimidating.

    It doesn't even matter how good of a skater you are or how experienced you are-- When your new partner has such distinct, results-oriented goals (as opposed to performance-oriented), and it's clear right from the beginning that anything less than the Olympic team 10 or so months from now will be thought of as a failure (for at least one partner), there's added pressure there, for both partners. It's not necessarily a totally bad thing-- it may even be a little motivational-- but we shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. A sports psychologist might tell you you're better off focusing on performance and then letting the results/rewards fall where they may. But again, in Rockne's case, he's sort of "been there, done that", so it's natural for him to have a tougher time breaking away from the more results-oriented mentality. And with that comes more pressure.


    That's not what I said at all. :lol: If you go back, you will see I quoted my last remark from my previous post. I don't mind debate and being criticized, but why bother criticizing me when it's clear you didn't really read my posts, or remember what I said? ;) It's fine if you don't want to read my posts, just please don't put words in my mouth.

    On another note, I apologize to the thread for breaking up my replies into 3 separate posts--- I just felt it was much easier to read than one crazy long post.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I apologize, stjeaskategym, for confusing some of what you said in your initial post with a post by figureit. Indeed there were at least four to five posters (including yourself) who initially posted negative concerns having to do either individually or in some instances collectively with Lindsay’s weight, body shape, lines, extensions, and her caliber as a skater relative to that of Rockne.

    Thanks for clarification of your thought process behind some of your comments. I still think the more critical overly concerned comments about Lindsay do not hold much weight. ;)

    I understand the example you are making re Mary Beth. However, I don’t think we should assume that your thoughts about the pressures Mary Beth may have felt in skating with Rockne are necessarily on the mark. Mary Beth and Lindsay are two separate individuals with different personalities. We also are not privy to what Lindsay and Rockne have discussed about their individual and collective goals in connection with their on-ice partnership.

    As far as my reference to world peace, it is tongue-in-cheek, and a humorous take on the sarcastic/ humorous mention of world peace by a number of posters in this thread. Also, my reference to “sinking this lighthearted thread” is also tongue-in-cheek.


    There are a number of critical comments (and insinuations) in this thread made in regard to Lindsay and to her body:

    For example:

    post #74

    post #75

    post #79

    post #32

    post #83

    There are also a couple of other half humorous, half derogatory references/ observations made by other posters.


    On a positive note, I think it's wise to:
    Love the body God gave you, and make it shine! Work it! Be the best you can be with what you've got! Good affirmations not only for all young impressionable females but for everyone made to feel lesser than about their bodies and/ or abilities.

    BTW, I’m all for thoughtful discussions. :)
  16. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    This is a discussion thread not a cheer thread however it is important that you are not judging that someone is critical or not. :D That said my comments were made from reality and also because I am good friends with someone who was a pair skater and who had a body much like Lindsey and who also was made to loose weight for a partner and got anorexia so my comments are not made in critique as much as concern that is based on the sport of "pair skating". It is as once explained by the great John Nicks..."Just the way it is in pair skating"...The concerns are real and are a part of pair skating especially in general and due to physics. I agree also that the girl being strong in core and strong in lifts also plays a part of lifting etc...Please note: Having seen someone I love suffer from these issues it is a credible concern albeit not the only one or the end all be all. Just a thought and concern in regards to this sport of being a pair girl...brought up in a discussion forum.


    I also gave an account of Gretchen Donalon who was one weight the first year she skated with Speroff and then totally super skinny the following year and it was scary but no one seemed to care because she had a HUGE triple twist and beautiful lines then..no one seemed to mind....
    It is a real concern not a critique of her natural body. I wish she had just stayed healthy and strong as her natural frame and not lost all that weight and in stead Speroff had hit the gym full force...there are some unequal issues in pairs where this is concerned and again this is known just not talked about often.... I was just bringing that up it is valid even if you don't like it or want to discount it. I am not sure why it came out here and it was not a dis on Lindsey..it just initiated a concern I have had for while about pair girls in general...Having seen recent photos of Caitlin Y (twitter) too she is looking extremely thin! and it is just something on my mind as yes sensitive subject but one that needs to be talked about as well....

    I also do not want to be accused of hating someone or denying them their natural amazing frame in which I agree they should certainly celebrate that has been my point from the beginning.

    It is a concern because I do admire a true body, a healthy body, and honoring your frame is what I said. I know it is not popular, or even politically correct to bring this up...it is very sensitive...
    Thank you for pointing out all that you felt was critical instead of seeing it was coming from a concern...that is your right to do so as it is mine to point out that you are very critical yourself...

    A cheer thread would be a positive thing to do for this team as well because it would be good to focus only on the positive there. Some comments are what people feel and sharing thoughts, concerns, and yes even thoughts in a discussion thread is what it is about. To quote John Nicks again "If you can't stand the heat..." when I read horrible negative comments I think about D/C I was a little shocked but was told "That is FSU"..sharing thoughts in a discussion thread even if it is not your view is what gives this forum spice and difference....that said I am hoping with your smiley faces and joking what did you say? "tongue and cheek comments" you are willing to see the other side in this discussion and something that holds merit even if it is not your view point.


    There are a number of critical comments (and insinuations) and "CONCERNS and well wishes."..in this thread made in regard to Lindsay and to her body but also of their potential possibilities as a team....:None of the comments were out to get her? but were reality of the way people saw things and that is not derogatory. This is a judgmental sport though...you go out you skate you are judged your body, your outfit, your style, your everything...so when people are commenting...it is subjective...respect that. It is hard I know...I have had to do it many times reading these forums about D/C whom I like and other teams I find really wonderful that someone including you has not found wonderful. It does inspire a discussion and that can be a good thing.


    On a positive note, I think it's wise to:
    Love the body God gave you, and make it shine! Work it! Be the best you can be with what you've got! Good affirmations not only for all young impressionable females but for everyone made to feel lesser than about their bodies and/ or abilities.

    You my fellow poster... have been guilty of not doing this in some posts I have read. Depending on the team we are talking about. I agree with your comments so if she changes her frame in anyway it will break my heart I love this and hope it is the only thing she is thinking regardless of what anyone may say or ask of her....unfortunately John Nicks words are ringing in my head..as well as any other coach that has made a pair skater stand on a scale (which I understand was and is common practice) ..I have heard pair boys say that because a girl gained two pounds he could not lift her??? that is so ludicrous (sorry guys get in the gym!) but I realize many say it is just a life of a pair girl. I know it is sensitive subject but I am for one sick of seeing girls especially being targeted in this department and one year come out with a beautiful God given body and the next year be looking like they have not eaten in years...that should be outlawed! That is my true opinion....That maybe is a whole other thread....so instead let us concentrate on some other issues...:shuffle:

    There are other issues that were brought up in this forum but all teams have issues and challenges, also beauty in their own right and I hope it works out for her and for Brubaker.
    Does anyone have any idea at all???
    ????? What the issues she had with Mark who is such an easy going guy??? that she could not work out does anyone know the answer??? It seems other pairs change partners for these reasons and they get roasted! and I mean roasted but because it is Brubaker it is all good..still curious though...

    BTW, I’m all for thoughtful discussions. :)[/QUOTE]
    This is good to know:) and I hope it is true or is it if you think it is thoughtful ? and nothing is but what you would find to be that way? Hopefully you can welcome just a good discussion even if it is a different point of view than yours. FSU can be a lot to get use to...but once all views are welcomed or even disagreed with without become called "derogatory" a "thoughtful discussion" can be had!:cool:

    Here's to that :D Cheers!
  17. hippychick

    hippychick New Member

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    This is good to know:) and I hope it is true or is it if you think it is thoughtful ? and nothing is but what you would find to be that way? Hopefully you can welcome just a good discussion even if it is a different point of view than yours. FSU can be a lot to get use to...but once all views are welcomed or even disagreed with without become called "derogatory" a "thoughtful discussion" can be had!:cool:

    Here's to that :D Cheers![/QUOTE]

    I dont think it is fair to speculate that when a female pair skate loses weight it is because her partner is unable or unwilling to "bulk up", or even that the girl is being encouraged to lose weight by her partner or the coach. Sometimes the girl takes it upon herself without any encouragement at all. In Donlan/ Speroff's case he looks pretty bulked to handle some additional weight. In fact I am sure some additional muscle by Donlan would benefit both of them in terms of jumps and overall strength. I think I read somewhere that Donlan became a vegetarian and maybe the change in her diet contributed to her weight loss. I know the tendency by everyone is to always believe it is the male partner and or coach that is encouraging the skater to be smaller and sometimes that is not the case, with loss of weight comes loss of strength and there is a fine line between the two.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  18. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Thanks figureit, for explaining the genesis of your viewpoints. It can be a good thing to share our impressions and then be open to expanding our perceptions and the way we think. I’m certain that I have made many critical comments since I tend to be opinionated (that’s mostly my ego at work). ;) I certainly try not to voice my opinions about skaters in an overly negative and dismissive way, although I may not always succeed 100%. I am often critical of some posters who I find to be negative and dismissive, but I’m learning how to do it in a more positive way. In any case, I’m sharing my differing perspective, not saying that everyone must think the way I do. I’m not perfect and none of us are. Once again, if we can be open to thoughtful discussion, we maybe can expand our awareness even if we still disagree with each other’s viewpoints. Sometimes it might be helpful to realize that our viewpoints are driven by our subjective preferences for certain skaters over other skaters.


    I’m not really aware of Urmanov’s views on this topic. I do understand that you are speaking of prevailing stereotypical attitudes. Actually, Lindsay does not have muscular, bulky legs. It appears to me that she has a womanly shape, with a medium to long torso, ample hips and thighs with slim shapely legs and good extension on lifts and landings. She could achieve even more stretch and extension, but what she has right now is better than that of some other pair ladies. In my view, Lindsay is also very graceful and she interprets music well. With Rockne, Lindsay will surely continue to develop her strengths and improve on weaker aspects of her skating (as hopefully they both will). Certainly Lindsay has great incentive and motivation to strive toward being better and better as a pairs skater. The way Rockne and Lindsay look together in the Felicia Beck YAS performance video definitely demonstrates that their pairing is promising.

    Since Caitlin and her new partner have not skated competitively this season, I doubt Lindsay has ever skated after Caitlin. And, in any case, all skaters should be judged for what they can do, and not against how their bodies might be negatively perceived in comparison to other athletes, or on the basis of some stereotypical idealized image. I know that might be a pie-in-the-sky hope for judges to aspire toward. :p

    BTW, I linked the Melanie Moore vids not because I think Melanie and Lindsay have the same body structure – they don’t! Melanie seems a bit shorter and her legs are stocky and more muscular, but as a dancer, she has out of this world extension and stretch that I think many figure skaters should aspire to acquire. Melanie defies the snobby attitude that you have to be thin to have grace and to train in ballet and be a dancer. She’s not trying to be a prima ballerina, but she can obviously nail all forms and styles of dance.

    Above all, I think Melanie Moore is a great example of a young woman who is utilizing every fiber of her being to be the best she can be at her heart’s desire, and she obviously didn’t allow any negative naysayers to rain on her parade and tell her what she could or couldn’t do because of her shape, or her height. She seems comfortable in her own body, has evidently trained her a** off, and apparently knows how to go after her dreams with unstoppable belief in herself and her talent.


    Thanks to those posters who commented on the YAS video and who pointed out that the music Felicia, Lindsay and Rockne skated to is from Night on Bald Mountain, by Modest Mussorgsky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGb6lKaJCqE
    Does anyone recall other skaters who might have performed to this music?
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  19. TwizzlerS

    TwizzlerS Well-Known Member

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    The confusion between the music that was used (Night on a Bald Mountain) and what one poster thought (The Sorcerer's Apprentice) may have come from the fact that both of these pieces are in Fantasia (the Disney video from many years ago).

    I believe Alexander Fadeev skated to Night on a Bald Mountain and, perhaps, so did Timothy Goebel.
  20. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    Tai Babilonia

    I'm thrilled for rockne! there is one mistake he keeps making and no one catches it except me, he did it again in this one, "my goal is to make the olympic team" he should have said "OUR goal " maybe the usfs will one day correct him on this, his mind set is all wrong, he is part of a team and should stop making it just about what HE wants. just an observation from me, the past or as the usfs has labeled me " not a current champion who young skaters can relate to" :) my best to rockne and his new partner. tai


    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130219&content_id=41779584&vkey=ice_news
  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    ETA: To clarify, figureit is quoting Tai Babilonia's Facebook comment in response to the Davis/Brubaker article on IN.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  22. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    I sort of agree, but he has been partnerless long enough to think in "I" terms and only recently partnered. The team mentality will come back to him, soon enough.
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Exactly, DarrellH. I don't disagree with the point Tai is making, but I also think your broader perspective is on target, and similar to the view expressed by the IN poster who responded to Tai's comment:

    Most of the IN commenters seem excited and supportive of Rockne and Lindsay. One poster who apparently knows Lindsay mentioned that Rockne and Lindsay "both talked about it long and hard before the tryout." That's hopefully another good sign of potential success for this partnership. They should take each day as it comes and not get ahead of themselves.

    BTW, what up with USFS' dis to Tai re her not being a "current champion who young skaters can relate to"??? That doesn't make sense. Plenty of pairs teams could benefit from Tai's wealth of pairs experience. Pairs skating has changed in terms of technical advances and a different judging system, but most of what goes into making a successful pair team has not changed. I'm sure Tai could provide a great deal of insight and support through mentoring.


    IMO, there will only ever be one G&G. And they experienced many struggles in reaching the pinnacle of the sport. Read Katia’s My Sergei. Despite all evidence to the contrary, G&G were not perfect. It was all a beautiful illusion. That’s what figure skating is at its best. I bow to the lovely memory of G&G, but I also love, hail and celebrate the North Americans Sale/ Pelletier, the Germans Savchenko/ Szolkowy, and the Chinese Shen & Zhao.

    A Russian pairs aesthetic in figure skating is NOT the only ideal to strive for. Everyone should not have to conform to or be pressed into the same mold. Respect North American Pairs!!! I do think that figure skaters should regularly train in ballet because it is a basic foundation of movement technique, but then go out and break the rules and do their own thing. That’s how the world grows and evolves.

    Speaking of growing and evolving:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xjPODksI08 One Love/ Playing for Change

    Speaking of Davis/ Brubaker bringing about World peace, maybe they could skate a sp to this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhtQRu40V7s ;)

    And a lp to this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3kNRyh_rj8 :p


    And just because …
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSrAJsWvEIc

    Dream a dream, everyone. :saint:

    I’m not intending to be hyperbolic either. I just have unwavering faith in the power of dreams.

    The most important things are staying in the moment, making the effort, and enjoying the process. Realizing a dream is just icing on the cake – not the whole enchilada. :D
  24. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I think she's taking the word 'my' to a whole other level than may or may not have been intended.
  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, Tai is splitting hairs a bit. I think the comments of DarrellH and the IN poster I quoted present a more reasonable perspective re Rockne's phrasing. In any case, in the IceNetwork article, Lindsay speaks about the Olympics in a similar way that Rockne did.



    After all, they have just announced their new partnership. As they begin working together, becoming comfortable with each other on the ice and melding as a team, the "our/ we" mode of expressing themselves will naturally develop. :)
  26. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    Tai I think was the mentor to Keauna and Rockne so she probably has some insight in this...what you say even from the beginning matters. When you learn to hold the pairs hand or make sure they are ok...you do not just skate with them and off the bat skate away from them or not worry if they fall? and say hey we are a new team when we are together longer I will learn to care more about "US". You begin as a unit and end as a unit...if I recall this was an issue with Keauna and Rockne...so it does affect the focus, feeling, and trust of a team...just thought it was an interesting insight given her background with Rockne from the beginning...and if he also took from Mr. NIcks...Tai would have insight on that partnership as well...the point of changing that mindset is very crucial I believe to the failure or success of a team from the beginning and given her background with Rockne in particular it could be a valid concern and may have more meaning than you may first think...just a thought...

    Also if Rockne was a novice pair boy then I would think it would develop as a senior pair very experienced you know it does affect a team no matter how new. You don't do a triple twist and say "Hey when we are together longer then you can trust we will be as one" You are a team asap committed...and then no matter what happens in competition or practice you do it together...it is no ONE person's fault.when something happens.....I am guessing that is what she was trying to point out...that is why you hear teams say "WE had a bobble but ended strong" when maybe just the girl fell on triple toe. I love hearing that because even if they are new I know they are grounded....and have a strong base...does it happen all the time? Nope and that could be more important than you think maybe when it doesn't happen it is a showing of some issues with the team? I just think maybe she has an insight that is interesting and I have read some of her thoughts and don't always agree with her voice she is outspoken but I respect her especially where pairs are concerned.

    The success of a team starts from the meeting before you even enter the ice but once you commit that is it you fall as a team, you land as a team, and you catch as a team...regardless...and with that mind set it can put into motion a connection that doesn't develop but lays the ground work for success...and that matters...so I thought her comments rather than brushing them off as if she may not know what makes a team long term????...but instead listening to her may make a difference for this teams success especially if they are talking long term partnership..and especially since she has worked with or been around Rockne in other partnerships and would have insight in this area...

    I just thought her comments were interesting due to that and I believe there could be success with this team if these things are payed more attention to this time with Rockne cause although I do not believe he will cause World Peace but he is an amazing pair skater and it would be great if this was the partner for him longterm and maybe just maybe this is why he has had issues in that department????
  27. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I was watching videos of Lindsay skating with Mark this season.

    Stroking - nice, even and she seems to generate good speed
    Jumps - she lands harder triples (3sals) with good flow
    Extension - she's not a willowy ballerina, but she achieves an acceptable amount of extension in her lifts.

    Already, she has certain attributes over MBM, including maturity and pairs experience. I think it might work

    They will need to work on the 3twist, but if MBM and Rockne could get there, then so can D/B.

    I assume they will want to get on the ice this coming season ASAP. What summer competitions could they enter?
  28. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I can't remember if Rockne Brubaker has attempted 3S in his pair programs before? 2A, 3S and 3Lo are Lindsay Davis' more consistent jumps.

    Skate Detroit would be a logical, local debut competition for them (last week of July), then Indy Challenge, of course.
  29. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    3S with Keauna
    Not very consistent for either
    I think Lindsey is a way more consistent jumper
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    You make a good point, figureit, that Tai has had experience with Rockne and Keauna in the past, so she might have some insight in that respect that we do not have. Perhaps Tai didn't sense a full commitment between Rockne and Keauna when the going got rough. However, I don't think we should assume that it was only Rockne who is to blame for that split. Certainly, Rockne had to have learned from his past two partnership experiences. On the surface, he seemed patient with Mary Beth and willing to work with her since she was new to pairs. And when Mary Beth was deciding to quit, Rockne (again on the surface) seemed supportive and gracious about her decision.

    Everyone makes good points re Lindsay's jumping ability, which is a bonus. Most likely both Rockne's and Lindsay's past partnership experiences will benefit their new pairing.
  31. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    This is pure speculation.
  32. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    For sure I do not believe it is all Rockne that is to blame for the split I believe that it takes two...on that account and it could be that because of that particular partnership he had to think as one and began what I see as a bad habit in focusing on himself...maybe out of necessity who knows?. I am not saying he did not have a reason to start that mode of thinking just that I believe that Tai is right it affects a partnership in the beginning and it is something that should be emphasized "team" right from the start..maybe it had an impact on the M/B partnership too...?? not sure. I also believe that the universe has a plan and it doesn't always coinside with what we think... about something and I hate to say it but usually "there is a reason for everything". So maybe this is his perfect partner?...sometimes it is a journey. Just thought Tai's insight was interesting......
  33. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    My comments, reese, are based on quotes by both Rockne and Mary Beth in printed articles; on their interaction in competition; on their comments and interaction in interviews throughout their partnership; and on mutually supportive quotes by Rockne and Mary Beth after their split. So as I said, on the surface Rockne seemed patient, obviously willing to help an inexperienced partner, and supportive leading up to and after their split. Rockne's encouragement and support is my perception, and it's based on more than pure speculation.


    Well, figureit, if that's the case, it seems then that both Lindsay and Rockne are guilty of not "emphasizing 'team' right from the start," as per the phrasing of comments by both of them in the IceNetwork article. Truly, let's give Rockne and Lindsay a couple of months to at least begin to gel. :p
  34. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    I agree it is in articles and in interviews in quotes so it came form them...that puts it beyond speculation...
    whether or not they meant what they said or were just being politically correct is another matter...do you have some insight that is more or less? Why would you say it is speculation?? Please share Reese:) just curious..

    .and I also agree we are discussing the new pairing of D/B but giving them time and letting them gel is always expected....and truly the more good pairs we have in the US the better!
  35. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    After the season in which Rockne had hernia problems for at least some of it and jumped kinda inconsistently (08-09), he became plenty solid with 3S. With Keauna, 3S was their "main triple" (3S-2T in LP) and occasionally they did 3T as a second triple (not consistent, but again, he was injured for at least some of that stretch). They ended up doing 2As instead, which were fine.

    With Mary Beth, it was the opposite-- 3T was their "main triple" (3T-2T in LP), and Rockne was fine with it then. And then they briefly tried 3S as the second triple, but it didn't work out (he actually landed them fine in competition; it was more of a problem for her with everything else going on in the program, plus they didn't have good unison on them). They switched to 2A, and he rarely messes up that jump.

    Overall, Rockne is good with 3T & 3S. And 2A. I've never heard of him doing a 3Lo at any point in time, and I'm thinking all the way back to when he competed as a novice man. I could be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think so. I know Lindsay and Themi were quite good at 3Lo. In recent years Rockne would practice 3F, but that obviously never made it into a program.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  36. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    So you are literally basing it on prepared remarks for press releases, kiss and cry interactions and on-air tv interviews.

    I don't think Rockne is a bad person, but I do think :sekret: his ego *can* make him difficult to work with. Maybe this Davis situation will be different; I don't know. I think the pressure of skating with The Rockne Brubaker was very difficult for Mary Beth.
  37. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    I think that all sides now realize that this might be the last great chance.
  38. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like Tai generally is good at dishing out 'tough love' when necessary. I wonder if she ever considered coaching.
  39. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I don't recall ever hearing Tai speak about a desire to coach, but she definitely has offered to be of service to USFS in working with, i.e., mentoring U.S. pairs. I believe that Tai might have been called in to mentor Keauna and Rockne via her connection with Mr. Nicks. I don't specifically recall the details, but Tai did discuss her mentoring relationship with Rockne and Keauna during her podcast interview with manleywoman in June 2009:
    http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-28-tai-babilonia/

    And, during Tai's recent Skating Lesson podcast interview with Jenny and Dave, Tai also mentioned her desire to be of service to U.S. pairs in whatever capacity she could be of most benefit.


    Glad to hear you don't think Rockne is a bad person, whatever your definition of a "bad person" happens to be. Hmmm, unless fans happen to be gossipy skating rink Moms or other skating world insiders (which I am not), I think following skaters via their Twitter and Facebook, on television, in online videos and interviews, print articles and IN features is about the only way to get to know favorite athletes, outside of off-chance/ rare opportunities to meet them in person at their training rink or at events and public appearances (and obtaining off-the-cuff impressions). Unless, of course, a fan with dish is an obsessed stalker who bugs skaters' relatives, waylays skating know-it-all Moms, tracks down skaters in bathrooms, sets up wire taps in hotel rooms, hacks emails and cell phone calls and texts, and scours wastebaskets. ;)

    But, apparently you have more intimate knowledge about Rockne's ego than I do, reese. :p However, unless you do know Rockne personally, I wonder how you arrived at your conclusions. :sekret: In any case, every human being has an ego (not to mention vanity and pride). It's only the very rare human who has the ability to keep their ego under control at all times.

    And what is this about The Rockne Brubaker. I mean, he's obviously a very talented male pair skater with porny good looks, but it's not like he's the pair skater version of Patrick Chan, or is he???

    Hopefully, Rockne's brother Collin doesn't have the same "ego gone wild" gene. ;) And pardon me for feeling skeptical that it was largely Rockne's ego, or Rockne's large ego that weighed so heavily upon both Keauna and Mary Beth thus causing those respective splits/ break-ups. As the years pass by and the dust settles, I wonder whether there will be a tell-all? Has anyone informed Stefania?

    Disclaimer: Don't mind my sarcasm, it's just my ego responding. :fan:
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  40. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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    ^^ What I suspect has been the issue with Rockne's most recent partners....KM and MBM...has very little to do with Rockne's ego. I think it is more of a difference in maturity, lack of.... or differences in common goals and the way in which those goals were approached, and quite often that is reflective of work ethic, maturity, life experiences. I think there was too much of a age difference, esp with MBM, and with Keauna....it was perhaps a change in her life goals. After not qualifying for Vancouver, I think the idea of working another 4 years towards Socchi was not in her life plan.