Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Aussie Willy, Jan 9, 2011.
I'm sending Aussie Willy and Jenna my calls tonight.
I'm working on mine now!
I got gkelly's calls - thanks.
Sent my scores in. Everytime I do one of these I'm convinced the ISU need to re-work the PCS criteria somehow.
Performance/Execution and Interpretation seem redundant to me and I feel like it makes it difficult to accurately vary and judge PCS. And yes, I did read the specific explanations on the ISU website...
Performance/Execution is kind of a catch-all category, and some of it does tend to overlap with some aspects of Interpretation.
But most of it has nothing to do with the music, and Interpretation has everything to do with the music.
Similarly, Interpretation and Choreography tend to overlap specifically in the areas where Choreography relates to the music.
So maybe it would make sense to just put everything about music in one place -- Interpretation, or call it something else -- and then P/E and Choreography will consist of everything from their current definitions that's left over when the performance or program structure are considered apart from anything related to the music?
It sounds reasonable, I'm curious about results I wonder how ladies' FS from OG in Salt Lake City would be scored under CoP.
We already did ladies' short program from Salt Lake City so it would be nice to know the final result especially that it's very likely to be different than 6,0 one. Irina was first after SP in our game with huge score considering the fact that it was program without high-level spins, steps and spirals (over 63) and Kwan was 5th (with only 55 points). I would be really happy to do that FSU judging game.
I can't remember if I did the 2002 Olympics one. I know I did 88 Olympics Ladies SP.
If I did do it, the stuff would be on my other computer which is currently in storage.
Just curious - who was 2nd 3rd and 4th in that judging game? And how did Sarah hughes do??
oh, taso!! the performances put a smile on my face too! the sport i was once in love with ... you sound v. nostalgic, but i'm with you 100%.
i just re-watched surya bonaly's performance; it's such a beautiful programme! if i were her i would not have accepted the silver medal in 1994 as well (not because of the 1994 worlds competition per se, but because of 1993 and 1994 combined) ... but that's another thread. as a side note, it was so good to meet her in person in 2002 at the only skating show i ever went to. Surya and i had a nice little chat, and she seemed v. content and happy ... seemed to have moved on from the disappointments and injustices ...
I thought in previous games the elements were called and posted here so the judges could download the document, fill it with the grades and send it to AussyWilly.
Am I wrong? Where do the judges put the scores if not? And I just said I would like to participate, but I´m not sure if I have been confirmed as judge...
Sorry for so many doubts!
1st Irina - 63.46 33.23 30.23
2nd Sasha - 59.39 29.83 29.56
3rd Fumie - 57.38 28.43 28.95
4th Julie - 55.25 27.99 27.26
5th Michelle - 55.05 23.26 31.79
6th Sarah - 52.95 25.36 27.59
7th Maria - 49.08 20.67 28.41
Have you watch Yuka Sato's performance from Worlds that year?
Surya was not world champion material. Her basic skating skills were very poor and she had no refinement nor elegance in her moves. She is one of those skaters that would have done very poorly under IJS. She was lucky that she managed reasonable spins and jumps which held her up as even though they were okay quality, there was probably nothing to deduct from them. However looking back even that is questionable.
Bonaly's biggest case of wuzrobbed was probably 93. But even that isn't such a strong case in hindsight. She might have had all the required elements, but she had little quality.
IMO she lost 94 and 95 fairly because of both quality AND jump issues. In fact, I think she was lucky to have had silver in 95.
I actually thought 1994 was her most absurd case. She didnt even jump that well that day. A triple loop she had to put her hand down and step out of to keep from falling, and a badly cheated triple flip-triple toe where the triple toe w was atleast half a turn underrotated. I was stunned Bonaly even had higher technical merit marks than Sato for that performance. I thought Sato had cleaner jumps (even with the wobbly landing edge on the triple flip), much better spins, much better footwork, and of course much better basic skating. I would have scored them something like:
Bonaly- 5.7 technical, 5.6 presentation
Sato- 5.8 technical, 5.9 presentation
I was stunned it was even a 5-4 split.
I thought 1993 either Bonaly or Chen should have won. Would have been fine with either. Both outskated Baiul. I had Baiul 4th in the LP behind Kiellmann (though I knew no way the judges would have it like that). I thought even Sato's LP was comparable to Baiul's overall.
1995 I actually didnt think Chen was as the clear of a winner as some did, although I agreed with her win. I thought Bonaly, Chen, and Kwan were all close in the LP itself. Still in the SP Bonaly was lucky to not be 6th or 7th, her SP was quite mediocre.
Weird, 2002 Olympic Ladies competition is the perfect example of why I hate and love CoP at the same time !
I mean, I love that Michelle Kwan won the SP due to 6.0, and I hate that Sarah Hughes won the LP because of 6.0 !!!!
I always thought Kwan won the SP not due to 6.0 but since it was in the U.S. I am sure Irina would have won it anywhere else. Just like I am sure Irina won the final free program at the GP final that year not due to 6.0 but since there were 4 Euro bloc judges on the panel who had plans to block judge even if Irina bombed (how else to explain 4 1st and 3 3rds in the final program).
It's disappointing that while Surya improved in her packaging, style and musical interpretation over the years, she couldn't really get a firm grasp on better basic skating skills. It's one thing to be more artistic, the complete presentation mark accounts for demonstrating good skating skills (which I think her team misinterpreted badly).
I do note though that Surya's later programs actually had more transitions and field moves than some of the other competitors.
Her 1993 Worlds LP was not that bad, in term of choreo, but also in term of basics, IMO.
With all due respect Aussie Willy, that's a matter of opinion.
I can see why people would feel Surya did enough to beat Sato. Of course Yuka had better crossovers and basic skating, but where in the rules did it stipulate exactly what that was worth in terms of technical score? or Artistry?
Let me ask a question regarding artistry. If you were going to pick out examples of both Bonaly and Sato, in terms of the artistic components today, to use as a teaching tool of what to see in a skating program, what would you use?
I know the more I think about it and study it, the more I understand why Sato was the World Champion and Bonaly was not.
So Surya's basic skating skills were poor but her good spins and jumps were just luck?
While 'judging' this...I was struck by how kickass this Four Seasons program was. I've always loved it but it holds up really well.
So are you commenting that she couldn't have had good jumps and spins without good skating skills? Or that despite her poor skating skills she had good jumps and spins?
I don't think Surya has good jumps and spins.
Surya's jumps often had zero flow coming out, a wild swinging free leg, a good deal of telegraphing, etc. I guess her spins were decent in terms of speed but really, nothing special otherwise.
Yuka may have been pretty blah as an amateur but everything she did exceeded Surya in terms of quality.
I remember some rumour broadcast back when she was starting out stating that she was trying to land double jumps within a few weeks of starting skating!! Well that tells you all you need to know really about her natural ability to vault herself into the air and rotate as opposed to her mediocre skating skills. I agree she had very unorthodox jumping technique overall and it was her natural athletic talent that got her through them for the most part. Her triple lutz did improve tremendously though.
Back to topic
Well, she started skating at 2 y.o. or 2 and a half. So, this rumor can't be true ! lol
But for sure, she was more interesting in jumps and probably started to jump fastly !
apologies for diverting the topic to surya v sato in 94 previously!
back to topic ... surya's 4 seasons programme kicks ass i expect over 120+ points from all of you on the judges sheets
I'm pretty sure it was Gaighaguet who said this at 1989 Europeans. Probably just some silly soundbite to drum up press interest.
Well, I think about it like this - if Surya had won worlds we'd never have had the epic SuryaStrop.
I don't even know what that is
Her spins tended to slow down significantly whenever she changed positions and needless to say her positions were totally unrefined.
This. There was nothing more painful than watching do a bielman or any variation on a catchfoot, it was soooo slooooow and labored. I shutter years later just thinking about it.
That being said this Euro LP could be the best I've ever seen her skate.
I'm sure a lot of people will disagree, but I think even though her positions and lines weren't all that great, at her best Surya did have some musicality and timed elements and movements to accents or highlights in the music.
That being said, how are the scores coming along Aussie Willy?
I never felt her musicality or expressiveness was her burden. I even found her somewhat exciting at times. It was always her skating skills and technique that did her in.
At this stage I only have 3 lots of marks submitted by judges. Am presently entering them in. If anyone else wants to submit marks, please send them to me at email@example.com.
aussie willy if you can wait til weekend I can send my marks in then
The same with me.
Separate names with a comma.