Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by victorskid, Jul 28, 2011.
It doesn't say anything about Vanessa.
That's why the poster said "indirectly"
But I bet there are a lot of female ice dancers who don't have the right height and the right physical attributes to skate with him. If he and Vanessa were so poorly matched for those qualities I doubt they would have been partners for an entire decade.
I read the statement more as that Gillies had the size and attributes that were the best match out of all the possibilities, not that she was a better match than Vanessa had been.
Lane may not have intended those statements to be a dig at Vanessa but they most definitely come across that way.
I don't see how the reader can help but draw an unfavorable comparison to Vanessa.
I didn't read anything negative towards Vanessa in that statement either. Nothing.
Neither did I.
I agree with overedge. To me, it reads like a continuation of the preceding paragraph about tryouts -- that Piper was better-suited, physically, than the other candidates had been. Vanessa's fairly far-removed from the discussion by that point in the piece.
Which isn't to say that on some level there may not, theoretically, be some subtextual dig at Vanessa there, but the structure of the article itself doesn't support it (and I don't, personally, pick up on it).
Paul is cute as puppies with the mop-top curls. And looks much younger. Well, I loved C&P, but I'm very glad that he, at least, has found a promising partner. And can't wait to see what Paul and Piper can accomplish.
I surely hope Emily and Vanessa are as lucky!
I didn't find those statements to be particularly derogatory, but this quote from the article was a bit questionable (in the "don't blame me, I am just telling you what other people think" category):
But I put the blame entirely on the writer of the article.
I blame the writer of the article too..the buck stops there.
Unless you're writing an opinion piece , unattributed comments or opinions such as those held by the nebulous "many in the skating fraternity " are at best worthless , at worst , an attempt to plant spin. If it's the writer's opinion ,he should have the guts to say so and let the reader decide whether his opinion is worth the paper it's written on.
If it's not his opinion,but the opinion of someone who doesn't want to be quoted, he should leave it out. I suppose if he wanted to conduct a tough interview he could posit the proposition and ask the interviewee to respond to it...but this was not that kind of piece.
If someone has said to him " this is off the record but.." and he prints it, he's being used.
This was supposed to be an article about the forming of the new team of Gilles and Poirier. Vanessa should not have been mentioned except in passing ..something like, "With his former partner, Paul won this or that medal.." That's all.
But because that blurb about Vanessa was positioned right at the beginning of the piece the rest of the article is seen in light of it, relates back to it ,if only subliminally.
Carol Lane's quote about Piper would be OK ..on it's own. But because the writer ( or whoever) told us at the outset that Vanessa was a lesser skater than Paul, and that she was inelegant,if physically fit ( a left-handed compliment if there ever was one )... every positive comment made about Piper comes in contrast to the negative comments previously made about Vanessa.
And then there was the coy reference to Emily..
I't's at least a shoddy piece of work.And possibly something worse.
I understand what you're saying. But since the negative comments about Vanessa earlier were not about her height or her physical attributes, I don't see a connection there.
And even if she were the wrong height for Paul and that was why the team had split, it wouldn't really be blaming her -- people can't control their height, and no height is negative in and of itself, only when it comes to matching teams.
Now, if the positive comments about Piper had praised her for exactly the qualities Vanessa had been said to lack, and especially if those were qualities accepted to be under one's conscious control, then mentioning them would have been a dig at Vanessa (by the writer at least).
If Lane had said something like "Piper is a very strong skater who will have no trouble keeping up with Paul and will push him to improve even further" that would be hard not to read back to the previous insinuations about Vanessa.
But that's not what she said.
And I understand what you're saying.But I think you're being very kind.
If someone gave me that piece to proof read, the first thing I would have done was draw a big red line through the comments about Vanessa and tell the person it had nothing to do with the rest of the article. My second correction would have been a question mark next to " tested the waters with Emily Samuelson ", with the comment... Did they try out , or not ? Clarify, or leave it out.
Without those two things ,the article tells us all we wanted or needed to know about this new partnership. ..Good she'll have her release .. good, they've got their choreographer.. good, they're working toward making a splash at Canadians.
But intentional or not, if those remarks are left in, the reader is being led , through unkind comments and insinuation. If unintentional, it's pretty poor writing and editing. If intentional , the question is ,what's the point?
It still doesn't say anything about Vanessa.
The fact that the partner with whom Paul would be trying out has to have the right physical attributes only means that he's not going to try out with everyone, because obviously he needs to find a good size and weight match.
And that's all that was said.
As for Vanessa's lack of elegance, I believe that was the writer's words and of course he was right. You'd have to be blind to notice how shockingly awful her posture was, for a top-level ice dancer. ;P
Ziggy ...The point is , this guy is not, like us , just a commenter on a skating forum , gossiping or discussing what we see as the good and bad points about a given skater.
He's supposed to be a journalist and ought to be held to a professional standard. It would be fair enough if he was writing a a critique of C/P , but he's not. Nor is he writing about the prospects of the 2 skaters together, as opposed to with their former partners... since he mentions nothing about any shortcomings of Piper's previous partners.
Yes, but he wrote that in a respectful way, highlighting Crone's positives also, so I don't see that big a problem with that.
But it is true that it sounds like he's with team Paul all the way.
Crone had her shortcomings but still, her skating is at a completely different level than Gilles's.
I read the article.
From the C/P split up thread:
Does this mean Gilles/Poirier can't compete at the 2014 Olympics (or hopefully I'm not understanding this post correctly!)?
It means without an exception to the residency requirements for citizenship, no. However, after three years of training in Canada and national and international results for Canada with Andrew Poje, according to this article posted up-thread by marbri, Kaitlyn Weaver was granted an exception the June before the Vancouver Olympics:
If things go well, Gilles/Poirier will have two years of results at the national level, and one year of results at the international level at the end of the season before the Sochi Olympics. It's possible that Gilles would be granted an exception. She already qualifies for permanent residency under the "self-employed" category, and she will have been resident and training in Canada for almost two years before June 2013.
Oh, Ziggy..I know you love a good discussion, or even debate...Don't we all ? We're here aren't we?
But I don't think anyone is going to buy that the writer's comments about Vanessa were in any way respectful, or highlighted her positives.
What member of the skating fraternity would think that excellent physical condition alone made up for inelegance when talking about ice dance ? You can walk into any corner gym and find a dozen people in excellent physical condition. Could you just throw a costume on them and shove them on the ice ?
In fact this piece gets more suspect on re-reading. It really goes a step further, which I wasn't going to mention..but what the heck... Although it's supposed to be about Paul and Piper the article again asserts that the C/P split had nothing to do with their finish at World's ( ) and goes on to say that neither Paul nor Carol would say what went wrong ( why was he even asking, when the official story has been given ?)... But he already supplied us with a possible reason in his Vanessa comments. So.... He might also be being disrepectful of Carol and Paul , by injecting something that we might possibly think one of them said " off the record " .
Ziggy, Ziggy, Ziggy, one thing I noticed this year in the Worlds coverage was that nobody, including you, made any comments about her posture. Now you bring it up...
A more valid criticism would be about her toe point and matching lines with Paul - that was something that still needed work. (but not a lot). I hope she finds a new partner, she's too good to just fade away...
Piper and Paul attended the Minto Summer Skate today to watch other skaters from their training centre compete. They looked good together, even off ice in "civvies". Piper seemed to be quite bubbly.
As they left this evening they said they'd be back tomorrow - the dance competition continues in the morning.
Does anyone have the results of the Sr./Jr. dance categories...they are slow to post them on the Minto website.
It just started at 9 AM with Juniors Here's the Sunday schedule
@icedancecom tweeted Minto Senior/Junior SD scores last night and I've copied them into the thread for Minto news/results in the Kiss and Cry forum: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3250352#post3250352
I didn't post in the Worlds forum.
But I mentioned that zillion of times elsewhere.
(I really liked Crone/Poirer despite that. Still can't believe they split. Hopefully Piper and Paul can be at least half as successful)
Whenever I watched Vanessa & Paul, it always felt like I was watching a brother and sister team!
Vanessa may have some issues fans don't like, but she is an exceptional skater and so light on her feet. I hope she addresses her negative issues and finds a partner worthy of her talent.
Agreed. She's too good to be sitting on the sidelines.
Did you realize that by your sentence you implied that Paul was not worthy of her as a partner? At least that's the way it could be read, apparently, based on previous discussions.
It probably should read......"NEW partner". I hope she finds one soon.
I agree. They were a very exciting dance team and she is much too good to sit on the sidelines. I'm still disappointed about what happened.
They skated tonight at the Scarborough "So you think you can judge" show at Thornhill arena. And this looks like a team that has been together for far longer than their announced "in the third week of their partnership". The look good together, both make a strong impression and have matching leg lines already. I think this pairing will go for more glamorous themes and styles than his previous team - certainly that's the case with the program they presented tonight.
We were able to talk to them for a minute afterwards and wish them well for the future. Welcome to Canada, Piper.
Fabulous news! I'm excited to see how they look. Maybe some of the buzz about the new teams (H/D and G/P) will make me miss the old ones less...
It's disappointing that we won't get to see Paul on the Grand Prix this year.
I will miss that.
I was hoping he would skate with Alexe Gilles. The USFSA would definitely release her!
That doesn't make sense, since Alexe Gilles isn't an ice dancer. and also too big for him.
It wasn't supposed to make sense.
Glad to hear that you had such a positive first impression of Gilles & Poirier as a team - thanks for sharing!
Check out PJ Kwong's blog for some new information, including video links: http://apps.pjkwong.com/blog/
"Gilles has a fresh-faced, playful quality that is a welcome contrast against some of the over the top kookiness that can be found in the international ice dance field."
Over the top kookiness? In Ice Dancing!?!
It was that she combined it with the word "kookiness" that got me
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