Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by Aussie Willy, Mar 10, 2012.
You really have no idea what you're talking about...
For the majority of the pattern tests I would agree that they suit the levels that skaters should be at those levels.
With one exception. I think the novice level tests exceeded not only the current abilities of our top Australian novices, but would have also been to impassable for majority of novice level skaters in top skating countries as well.
In particular novice pattern 4.
I attended a camp in Australia with the aim of teaching the patterns to skaters, as well as a seminar for judges in which the top skaters from the first camp demonstrated the patterns for the judges.
I was also present for the filming of the pattern test dvd as an advisor.
Based on this, not only our novices but many of our junior and senior skaters would not have passed the novice test, where as the majority were capable of passing the junior and senior moves. Lochran Doherty, Australia's junior world representative ice dancer was woeful at the novice patterns, how could you expect novice level skaters to pass when a senior dancer was practically falling on his face.
Queensland had several senior level singles skaters present at one seminar who managed a passing standard after almost an hour of critique, where as they were mastering the senior patterns in near 5 mins in one case.
Obviously these tests are relatively new, however I would hope that there is some on going evaluation and trial/error process planned to continue to improve these tests.
All in all however, the pattern tests can only be a positive for Australian skating.....
So adult skaters aren't actual athletes???
Many of the adult skaters on this board, including myself, have skated on sessions with national/international skaters without any problems whatsoever. It works just fine as long as everyone (and that includes the elite skaters) is respectful of everyone else on the ice, and gets out of other people's way when it's their turn.
AusTechSpec, I suggest that you learn more about adult skating so you won't make such ignorant comments. Here's a great place to start (there's plenty of stuff on You Tube):
ETA: Here's Charlie Tickner's take on adult figure skating (I assume you've heard of him, right?)
I've been on the ice with elite skaters, and based on conversations with them, they are "in my way" more than I am in theirs. It is hard for me to adjust to multiple skaters going that fast, but they say we move so slowly it is easy for them to judge where we will be. Practicing waltz jumps next to someone doing a 3A is incredibly motivational.
Our senior men (and also the novice pair, when they were together) do generally get clear ice when they do program run throughs. It is rare for that level to be at our mall rink, so we all want to watch, and also make sure we aren't in their way when they need to be in specific places. For the pair, no one wanted to be the cause of a fall, so they got a lot of space for lifts.
"Actual" athletes is so condescending. Adults are actual athltes too. The word you were likely looking for is elite.
I thought this was the case for most of the figure or freestyle sessions around Australia. Where in Australia are the adults not allowed on those sessions?
Years ago at Oakleigh we would have lost the figure sessions if it hadn't been for the adult skaters turning up and supporting it because the "actual athletes" didn't have the numbers. In Victoria the adult skaters have been an integral part of the skating community and the figure skating economy.
Canterbury has mixed session, anyone can get on. It's becoming very dangerous for a number of reasons and not condusive to producing top level skaters
I should add its more the younger skaters and Aussie skate kids that don't or can't move and are not taking notice of what is going on around them!
Australia's team at the recent ISU Adult Figure Skating Championships in Germany did brilliantly, too. I believe our team of 12 won six medals between them.
"Lochran Doherty, Australia's junior world representative ice dancer was woeful at the novice patterns, how could you expect novice level skaters to pass when a senior dancer was practically falling on his face." quote from Austechspec
Without wanting to be nasty, is Lochran Doherty really a Senior Ice Dancer? having seen the results from Preliminary round of Jnr Worlds, where I think they placed last, it would appear he is not very experienced or is lacking in strong skating skills, so it would not be a surprise for him to struggle on a difficult pattern. Also looking at Aus Nationals results he skated Junior and another team won, wonder why the stronger team did not go to Jnr Worlds.
Matilda and Patrick are not age eligible (Matilda is to young) Such a shame really because they have been working really hard and have twice been to Russia to train. I'm actually wondering how the new age for men in Junior Ice dance will effect them, Hopefully it will not keep them out of international competition, that would be a shame!
Will they be age eligable this year, from the results they are clearly way better than Lochran and Hannah
To qualify to skate at any level of dance in Australia, you need to pass the pattern dances for that level as listed in the ISA rulebook. Pass the test for Senior and you are a Senior ice dancer.
I wonder that myself, I assume they probably didn't meet the age criteria.?
Also makes me wonder why they received scholarship money for what was clearly a last min slap together team, which have now broken up. Seemed like there were many much more worthy and dedicated skaters who could have been better off with the money....
Wow. Ignorant, much?
I would much rather skate with the Primary-Senior skaters at my rink and they would rather have me than the younger Aussie Skaters. Adult skaters tend to have more of a sense of where they're going/where other people are going than younger kids.
It's driving my coach to distraction because I'm so hyper-aware of the more senior skaters and am forever jumping out of their way, even if I have right of way.
It's a good thing the Primary-Senior skaters at my rink have a better attitude than you. Respect begets respect. I respect the other skaters at my rink, I respect their right of way, and they respect me and my right of way.
Not one adult skater in Australia is an athlete, nor trains like an athlete. I have been to adult nationals and multiple other adult competitions. Every last one is a social competitor.. There was nothing ignorant about my comment, I know full well what the genre of Adult skating involves.
No the word is athlete.
It's not that I find adult skating as a bad thing.. It is a great way to keep people who are no longer athletically capable in the sport, which in sure anyone will agree is definitely needed in Australia.
However they should not be allowed on the same sessions as the competitive skaters...
That is great, as i said, having people stay in the sport is vital for the growth of the sport as a whole in Australia.
However we just don't have enough ice....
Absolutely, as the first person said, the fact that adult skaters are actually still moving makes them easier to dodge than the 5 skate school children playing tiggy in a lutz corner...
This is all moving off topic for an off hand comment, but what I want to get at is that I am not against adult skating, but it is a social sport, and therefore requires different training sessions from the elite.
You are confusing my actual intent here, my own fault of course as i shouldn't have put it so bluntly.
But you don't have right of way over the primary to senior genre.. But you do have a right to the ice.
Environment helps everything in training, thats why you have rinks all over the world where the elite gather to train, because being around other high level helps you.
It is the same here, it provides no benefit to the skaters to have adults on their sessions, often it is detrimental as they unknowingly get in the way.
It works both ways though, adult skaters should have their own time slots. So they can train and skate with other adults. Adult skating is a social sport, and this would run with that concept.
Many rinks in the past have had a coffee skate program. A session twice a week specifically for adult skaters, often with a coach present in case anyone wants some tips.
Definition of the word "athlete":
I don't see any qualifiers about age in there.
Strength agility and endurance...
I can come up with perhaps two adult skaters in Australia...?
Adult is a division meant to be fun, it is not a serious competitive sport, it is not one that requires day after day training.
Many of our adult skaters performed equal or less to what our skateschoolers perform, skateschoolers who certainly don't have strength agility and endurance...
They aren't athletes... just like going to the gym to lift weights doesn't make one a weight lifter.
Could you be any more full of sh*t?
If you don't think adult skating "requires day after day training", then you know nothing about adult skating or what it involves. Just because the skaters are sociable with each other doesn't mean it's not a sport or it's not athletically demanding.
If my music is playing and I'm in program, absolutely I have right of way, and the other skaters are very polite about it (most of the time). If their music is playing, absolutely they have right of way. Of course, if I'm setting up one of my piddling toeloops and I see one of the Juniors coming at me setting up a double Lutz, of course I will move! I do not have a deathwish!
If it is the week before Hollins/Wintersun/Championships/Nationals, I just don't go on those sessions. If that means I don't skate that day, so be it. Their practice is important, and I've seen how highly-strung people get. Better they have one less skater to worry about.
It's all fine and dandy for you to say "adult skaters should have their own timeslots", but what about at a rink where figure skating in general is lucky to get sufficient ice time?! And "coffee club skating"? Could you possibly be any more of a condescending twat?
Look pal, I am not going to the Olympics. I am not going to Worlds. I may not even ever make Adult Nationals. But I AM A FIGURE SKATER. I have goals. I test. I compete. I work my backside off on the ice. And I am not any less of a skater or a person simply because I did not have the opportunity or the money to start when I was five years old.
No, you are fooling yourself if you think performing singles requires day after day training.
As i said, I have seen on multiple occasions the standard of adults in Australia, I have many at my home rink, and have also attended adult nationals many times to watch the top of their abilities.
With exception of a few ex skaters that have retained their triples, the rest are performing at a level that requires once a week practice, the same as skate schoolers...
There is no argument on that, you do not need day by day training to perform singles and a level one sit spin.
I actually find this to be the most sensible approach.
My talk about coffee skate was not meant to be Condescending. I was being serious, it is merely the name of a session they run at some of the Queensland and WA rinks. It is simply an adult only session, in at least one of these rinks I know the adults named it Coffee Skate themselves...
Unfortunately, we don't have enough ice in many of our rinks and this is not a problem we can easily get around...
So how do you think lower-level kid skaters do those things? By showing up once a week at the rink for 15 minutes?
I don't care how many times you have seen adults skate, you obviously know next to nothing about how adults train or what adult skating requires. And your attitude is just about insulting as your pride in your lack of knowledge. If you are actually a technical specialist, I sincerely hope you are not being assigned to any adult competitions.
YES, that is how the kids do those things.
As a coach, you never tell skate schoolers to train more than twice a week.
Any coach who is forcing that on a skate school level is doing it purely for the money....
Almost half of the skate schoolers who enter the aussie skate comps learn their programs during aussie skate as part of the curriculum and perform them just off that alone...
For someone who has only posted about 16 posts in all on FSU, you certainly have made some pretty patronising and disrespectful comments.
As an adult skater myself, I certainly don't view myself as an athlete, but if I was training for a test (having worked through half of Novice dance), I think I would be fully entitled to participate in any figure session because that is where I am going to get the best training conditions to work on my test. And there are many adult skaters doing the same. Thus I pay for the session, I pay for coaching and I pay for the test. My money is worth the same as every other skater and I follow the same rules. And that includes when I pay money to clubs and associations to do competitions and tests.
Recently test standards were set for adults who do plan to compete so they are going to have to go through the same as all those other skaters doing the tests. Maybe some of the adults may like to work through all those new tests to the senior patterns, because whilst they may not be able to get the same technical content to do the programs, they will be able to do the patterns and achieve something for themselves.
There are certain things I do draw the line on when it comes to adults and I have had more than my fair share of issues with regards to adult skating. But to say that all adults should only be entitled to skate in coffee club, really is pretty offensive.
Coffee club sessions usually happen during the day, when most adults are at work. I don't see that many rinks would be prepared to offer adult skating sessions at times that when working adults are able to attend. Not everyone has flexible working hours.
I'm happy to admit to being a recreational adult skater (in the sense that I don't test or compete), but that doesn't mean I don't want to improve my skills, and I definitely need more than one session a week to do that. I've done the oone session a week thing in the past and ended up giving up because I was frustrated that I wasn't able to get any better. Now that I can skate several times a week, and can see progress, I'm a much happier skater.
I'm sorry, my poor wording on that one. I would not intend to confine all adult skaters to only coffee skate.
I agree with everything you say and am in full support of the new testing system.
What I am saying is that adult and competitive skaters on the same Ice is a negative to both parties.
Obviously there is little we can do to facilitate that in Australia with our limited ice availability however would no substituting one of your training sessions to a coffee skate session help you out more.
It would give you clearer ice to train, often more affordable as well. Also puts you in a training session with other adult skaters.
I am not saying you can never skate on the figure sessions, if you have the test requirements and have paid for it there is no one who can stop you... But a couple of sessions a week where we can split adults and competitive skaters apart is a good thing is it not?
And I hardly think my post count on a figure skating forum affects my credibility here?
I see your point about the poor timing of most adult skate sessions.
My overall point is that adult and competitive skaters need their own ice, it works better for both parties. Unfortunately it is a pipe dream with limited ice time in Australia.
I was merely proposing the <b>addition</B> of coffee skate sessions as a half way solution...
I understand where AustTech is coming from even though it was badly worded .. Senior and Junior level skaters should have their own Ice and they DO want to go to the Olympics or worlds, they NEED space and to be stoping half way through programs or constantly pull out of jumps because people are in the way (Kiddies or Adults or even primary level skaters) there is a kid at the rink my kids skate at who is primary level and I can't tell you the amount of accidents this kid has caused to the higher levels.
We have far to many people on in the figure sessions and it's the High level skaters who really suffer.
But the rinks need money to survive so the sessions are packed
How naive are you? Do you really think the rinks are going to create separate sessions for adults and elite skaters? If you have any knowledge of how most rinks operate in Australia, then that will never happen.
When it comes to credibility, I think you have already proven by the number of patronising comments you have made, including the one above, that it is seriously in doubt. You have already p*ssed off a number of people with the little time you have spent on the forum. But well we can't stop people like you from participating in this forum, even though we think you probably belong in another forum where your level of comment would be more suitable.