New Australian Pattern Tests

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by Aussie Willy, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Yes you are correct... Ice skating Queensland owns the rinks.
  2. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    hmm. it makes sence from a business point of view, but, it certainly is hard to improve when the time is pricey... i would like to skate 4/5 times a rink for 1.5 hours at a time, but even with a 30 pass (for $300) it would still be 80-100 a week, + lessons. As an adult skater, i find it hard to justify that sort of money. Many parents of would be elite skaters would probably find it pricey also... although skating is universally an expensive sport.

    Cockburn Ice Arean in Perth is about $1500 for a yearly pass, which you can skate on any session for as long as you like (other than hockey obvs). The owner is very invested in figure skating though. He always used to tell us we were spoilt with our ice time.. now i believe him!
  3. Jumpin Bean

    Jumpin Bean New Member

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    We can talk all we like about costs, ice availability etc but sit at a training session and objectively watch the skaters. The majority of the Australian skaters would get as much out of skating around in a public session as they do from a training session. Most skaters do not show any recognition that someone is paying for them to use the ice and they need to wake up and use the time responsibly. It's about to get more expensive with the introduction of the carbon tax next month.

    Without results internationally there will be no public money given to skating. To get results they need to train overseas where real skaters use their ice time for training not socialising.

    We also need to get over the idea that they get marked low because they are from Australia- it's because they don't skate as well as skaters from the top nations- it's like a dog chasing its tail- Australian Skaters don't train like top 10 skaters so they don't compete like top 10 skaters. Don't blame the judges- they often get it right. Internationals are now 95% guts and grind and 5% politicking.
  4. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    How does one train in a packed public session? During the day when its not school holidays is ideal... but few skaters would have that luxury of not having work/school.
  5. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Um, excuse you, but have YOU been on a training session and actually watched the skaters?

    Yeah, I see a bit of gossip going on. I also see the skaters at my rink working their as$es off. The Senior lady has a part-time job and is expected to buy her own boots as she wears them out!

    To say that all Australian skaters just socialise on practice sessions and don't work is not only a gross generalisation, but a disgusting and insulting one. Jerk.
  6. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Im just going to ignore your stupid comment
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    The reality is that pretty much all skaters in this country have to pay their own way. Very few get any assistance. So I am not sure why you are surprised they have to pay for their own boots. Who do you expect is going to pay for them?
  8. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Because:

    Jumpin Bean basically implied that all skaters at a higher level are spoiled brats who expect someone else to pay for everything. My point was that, no, not all of them are.
  9. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

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    To an extent Jumping Bean is correct about skaters not using the ice time to the best advantage, but thats probably the result of a number of things.

    Our Figure sessions here are not geared toward the High level athlete and them a being able to gain the best use of the time, our sessions are to long and to crowded (at least at the rink where my kids train) which in itself encourages skaters to stop and have a a chat, because the sessions are to full the skaters can not get the speed they they do when they train in O/S because they are constantly stopping or pulling out of jumps to go around that little kids who are chatting or playing in the same session. We share ice with Pairs, dance and singles in every session.

    When my kids train O/S they have sessions that are 45mins long, limited to 1 discipline and numbers/levels on the ice are also limited. They have off ice classes avalable and run buy a trained sports coach, they have ballet, gym and yoga and it's all quite structured, there is no time to stop and chat in the sessions you have a lesson you practice and you get off and move to the next thing.

    It's true what Aussie Willy say's about most skaters paying their own way in this country. There is some limited funding for the best of the best. Cheaper Ice in Queensland is a huge advantage to it's skaters (Parents) - On the ice for 10 sessions in Sydney and you are looking upward of $130 a week , compared to Queensland at $25. (thats quite a few lessons there!!)

    When the rinks are run privately they are a business that needs to make money, in the long run that is detrimental to producing high end athletes. But it's not only about the money a lot of kids here just don't know how to train effectively.
  10. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but that comment had nothing to do with a skater having to buy their own boots. It was to do with wasting time on the ice.
  11. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    When i have sent some of my students OS, the session have also been 45 minutes, limited to 1 discipline, only allow 18 skaters on at once, and many have test level requirements. However the rinks in queensland, although they have cheaper ice, it means that there are more crowded sessions because parents let their children play for another session because its only 2.50. Rinks in queensland have sinles, pairs, a little bit of dance, lots of syncro and adult skaters all on at once.

    Another things is that the rinks in queensland dont make much money from figure sessions, however they make a lot of money from public sessions
  12. Jumpin Bean

    Jumpin Bean New Member

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    Ok So where did I say this- The problem is it only takes one skater on a session out there for a social time to ruin a session for everyone else. How many times do we see Cheltzie needing to "rewind" her run up for a 3x Lutz because someone meandering around has stopped her going for the jump? How many times have we shuddered because a pair team have been about to go into a lift when someone not aware of others have caused the nearest of misses. Oh yes I have sat and watched many training sessions and see the frustration of the few out there to work being hampered by the social trainer.

    The situation in Queensland where for $2.50 you get the "players" out there....much cheaper then a public session where they are meant to play.

    I can see a few get my drift but until training sessions in Australia become training sessions based on the needs of the training skater instead of based on Rink profitability and coaches income we will continue to flounder on the international stage.

    It would be any interesting experiment to see how it went with 45 minute sessions, divided by levels would work.

    Some of the reactions to my comments have been misinterpretation of the comment and really when you have seen as many skaters come and go as I have over a period of 20 years its easy to see the repetitive pattern and in the past 20 years the standard has not improved. Yes there have been one or two stand out skaters but there has rarely been anyone following to maintain the standard.

    And those who have launched personal attack perhaps need to read the rules
  13. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I dont see many people playing around on the 45 minutes sessions as Ice House. My only issue with them as its not long enough really to get a lot done, however, paying entry to two consecituve sessions is an option.

    100% agree with spilitting up the sessions. Perhaps have sessions for aussie skate/prelim-elementary/primary-novice/jnr-snr.

    Of course there are 100s more aussie skates to elementrarys, so that is a problem.
  14. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    No rink in Australia makes money from figure sessions. Everything else pretty much subsidises figure skating.

    I agree with Jumpin Bean. I haven't skated in a figure session for a long time now, but when I did you always had your problem skaters who just got in the way of everyone.

    At the Icehouse all the figure sessions are 45 minutes each which from what I have seen you don't see too much mucking around. People get there and practise.
  15. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

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    Maybe it's just that mentality I have 45mins I better work hard and get it all done in that time?
    I don't think really the rinks would have a problem with the shorter sessions, my understanding (from the rink manager) is the coaches don't like it because they can lose income. If for example you don't have a jun/senior skater then that Ice time is not available to you and you have to fit your students into other times. I don't think that you can please everyone, but in the end it's the high end skaters who suffer.
    Yes I have seen Cheltize need to pull out of jump after jump and our dance and Pairs couples have been told they are not allowed to lift in some sessions. <sigh>.

    I can see how the $2.50 sessions would attract the Players as well.

    There is just not enough Ice!!:blah:
  16. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I did find that myself when I started going to the Icehouse and skated in a shorter session. I didn't muck around because I didn't want to waste my money.
  17. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Carbon tax?! Over the global warming fraud business? What a rip-off for Australians. Governments should think twice that their top athletes could move, for cheaper ice, because of taxes on something that is not even scientifically proven.

    I pay that much in the US and I live in a really "cheap" area. And I only skate 5 hrs a week. It's par for the course. It can cost double or triple that in some of the more metropolitan areas, for the same number of hours. I haven't seen cheap ice, anywhere.


    In the U.S. you can pass your senior test by performing all doubles except an axel. It has not made the skaters worse and it is still extremely difficult to pass the senior freestyle test. Not many people have. And the field of talent is very deep. So, the problems in Australia are probably not from lack of 2A on a test.
  18. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 New Member

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    To Leafy greens, you do not understand the nature of skating in Australia. In USA tests don't matter because there is so much competition so the incentive to be the best and work hard is so that you can do well in competition! In Australia there is very little competition and it is always the same skaters competing and in some divisions there can be only 1 skater, so if no-one has any of the bigger jumps there is no incentive to get them as JGP's can be given to skaters without 2A's, I believe in a pond as small as Australia the test sytem is important as it gives the skaters something to work towards. I do understand that the test requirements are different in USA to Aus but with the volume of skaters in the USA that is what creates the high standard, we don't have that environment here, so in my opinion it is important to find the way to raise the standards so that AUS skaters compete short programs internationally with the required elements.

    Carbon tax comment, the Government in Aus don't care if the athletes move as they are not involved and offer no funding.

    There are expensive rinks in USA but there are also cheaper ones with plenty of ice availability during the day, if you are prepared to drive you will never be without ice, THAT is not the case in Australia, it is not easy to try to compare the two countries, I have never heard of any US skaters wanting to come to Australia because we have such good facilities, conditions and coaches! Aussie skaters do well with what we have here, but to succeed they need to travel overseas for better conditions and to get enough ice time.
  19. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    deleted post
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  20. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    Adult skaters are allowed on the sessions with the actual athletes? You have to be kidding....
  21. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    You really have no idea what you're talking about...
  22. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    For the majority of the pattern tests I would agree that they suit the levels that skaters should be at those levels.

    With one exception. I think the novice level tests exceeded not only the current abilities of our top Australian novices, but would have also been to impassable for majority of novice level skaters in top skating countries as well.
    In particular novice pattern 4.

    I attended a camp in Australia with the aim of teaching the patterns to skaters, as well as a seminar for judges in which the top skaters from the first camp demonstrated the patterns for the judges.
    I was also present for the filming of the pattern test dvd as an advisor.

    Based on this, not only our novices but many of our junior and senior skaters would not have passed the novice test, where as the majority were capable of passing the junior and senior moves. Lochran Doherty, Australia's junior world representative ice dancer was woeful at the novice patterns, how could you expect novice level skaters to pass when a senior dancer was practically falling on his face.
    Queensland had several senior level singles skaters present at one seminar who managed a passing standard after almost an hour of critique, where as they were mastering the senior patterns in near 5 mins in one case.

    Obviously these tests are relatively new, however I would hope that there is some on going evaluation and trial/error process planned to continue to improve these tests.

    All in all however, the pattern tests can only be a positive for Australian skating.....
  23. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    So adult skaters aren't actual athletes???

    Many of the adult skaters on this board, including myself, have skated on sessions with national/international skaters without any problems whatsoever. It works just fine as long as everyone (and that includes the elite skaters) is respectful of everyone else on the ice, and gets out of other people's way when it's their turn.
  24. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    AusTechSpec, I suggest that you learn more about adult skating so you won't make such ignorant comments. Here's a great place to start (there's plenty of stuff on You Tube):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTC9OYzE1AU

    ETA: Here's Charlie Tickner's take on adult figure skating (I assume you've heard of him, right?)

    http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-27-charlie-tickner/

  25. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I've been on the ice with elite skaters, and based on conversations with them, they are "in my way" more than I am in theirs. It is hard for me to adjust to multiple skaters going that fast, but they say we move so slowly it is easy for them to judge where we will be. Practicing waltz jumps next to someone doing a 3A is incredibly motivational.

    Our senior men (and also the novice pair, when they were together) do generally get clear ice when they do program run throughs. It is rare for that level to be at our mall rink, so we all want to watch, and also make sure we aren't in their way when they need to be in specific places. For the pair, no one wanted to be the cause of a fall, so they got a lot of space for lifts.

    "Actual" athletes is so condescending. Adults are actual athltes too. The word you were likely looking for is elite.
  26. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I thought this was the case for most of the figure or freestyle sessions around Australia. Where in Australia are the adults not allowed on those sessions?

    Years ago at Oakleigh we would have lost the figure sessions if it hadn't been for the adult skaters turning up and supporting it because the "actual athletes" didn't have the numbers. In Victoria the adult skaters have been an integral part of the skating community and the figure skating economy.
  27. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

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    Canterbury has mixed session, anyone can get on. It's becoming very dangerous for a number of reasons and not condusive to producing top level skaters :(

    I should add its more the younger skaters and Aussie skate kids that don't or can't move and are not taking notice of what is going on around them!
  28. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Australia's team at the recent ISU Adult Figure Skating Championships in Germany did brilliantly, too. I believe our team of 12 won six medals between them.
  29. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 New Member

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    "Lochran Doherty, Australia's junior world representative ice dancer was woeful at the novice patterns, how could you expect novice level skaters to pass when a senior dancer was practically falling on his face." quote from Austechspec


    Without wanting to be nasty, is Lochran Doherty really a Senior Ice Dancer? having seen the results from Preliminary round of Jnr Worlds, where I think they placed last, it would appear he is not very experienced or is lacking in strong skating skills, so it would not be a surprise for him to struggle on a difficult pattern. Also looking at Aus Nationals results he skated Junior and another team won, wonder why the stronger team did not go to Jnr Worlds.
  30. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

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    Matilda and Patrick are not age eligible (Matilda is to young) :( Such a shame really because they have been working really hard and have twice been to Russia to train. I'm actually wondering how the new age for men in Junior Ice dance will effect them, Hopefully it will not keep them out of international competition, that would be a shame!
  31. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 New Member

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    Will they be age eligable this year, from the results they are clearly way better than Lochran and Hannah
  32. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    To qualify to skate at any level of dance in Australia, you need to pass the pattern dances for that level as listed in the ISA rulebook. Pass the test for Senior and you are a Senior ice dancer.
  33. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    I wonder that myself, I assume they probably didn't meet the age criteria.?
    Also makes me wonder why they received scholarship money for what was clearly a last min slap together team, which have now broken up. Seemed like there were many much more worthy and dedicated skaters who could have been better off with the money....
  34. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Wow. Ignorant, much?

    I would much rather skate with the Primary-Senior skaters at my rink and they would rather have me than the younger Aussie Skaters. Adult skaters tend to have more of a sense of where they're going/where other people are going than younger kids.

    It's driving my coach to distraction because I'm so hyper-aware of the more senior skaters and am forever jumping out of their way, even if I have right of way.

    It's a good thing the Primary-Senior skaters at my rink have a better attitude than you. Respect begets respect. I respect the other skaters at my rink, I respect their right of way, and they respect me and my right of way.
  35. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    Not one adult skater in Australia is an athlete, nor trains like an athlete. I have been to adult nationals and multiple other adult competitions. Every last one is a social competitor.. There was nothing ignorant about my comment, I know full well what the genre of Adult skating involves.

    No the word is athlete.
    It's not that I find adult skating as a bad thing.. It is a great way to keep people who are no longer athletically capable in the sport, which in sure anyone will agree is definitely needed in Australia.
    However they should not be allowed on the same sessions as the competitive skaters...

    That is great, as i said, having people stay in the sport is vital for the growth of the sport as a whole in Australia.
    However we just don't have enough ice....

    Absolutely, as the first person said, the fact that adult skaters are actually still moving makes them easier to dodge than the 5 skate school children playing tiggy in a lutz corner...

    This is all moving off topic for an off hand comment, but what I want to get at is that I am not against adult skating, but it is a social sport, and therefore requires different training sessions from the elite.
  36. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    You are confusing my actual intent here, my own fault of course as i shouldn't have put it so bluntly.

    But you don't have right of way over the primary to senior genre.. But you do have a right to the ice.
    Environment helps everything in training, thats why you have rinks all over the world where the elite gather to train, because being around other high level helps you.
    It is the same here, it provides no benefit to the skaters to have adults on their sessions, often it is detrimental as they unknowingly get in the way.

    It works both ways though, adult skaters should have their own time slots. So they can train and skate with other adults. Adult skating is a social sport, and this would run with that concept.
    Many rinks in the past have had a coffee skate program. A session twice a week specifically for adult skaters, often with a coach present in case anyone wants some tips.

    Thoughts?
  37. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    Definition of the word "athlete":

    I don't see any qualifiers about age in there.
  38. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    Strength agility and endurance...

    I can come up with perhaps two adult skaters in Australia...?

    Adult is a division meant to be fun, it is not a serious competitive sport, it is not one that requires day after day training.
    Many of our adult skaters performed equal or less to what our skateschoolers perform, skateschoolers who certainly don't have strength agility and endurance...

    They aren't athletes... just like going to the gym to lift weights doesn't make one a weight lifter.
  39. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Could you be any more full of sh*t?

    If you don't think adult skating "requires day after day training", then you know nothing about adult skating or what it involves. Just because the skaters are sociable with each other doesn't mean it's not a sport or it's not athletically demanding.
  40. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    If my music is playing and I'm in program, absolutely I have right of way, and the other skaters are very polite about it (most of the time). If their music is playing, absolutely they have right of way. Of course, if I'm setting up one of my piddling toeloops and I see one of the Juniors coming at me setting up a double Lutz, of course I will move! I do not have a deathwish!

    If it is the week before Hollins/Wintersun/Championships/Nationals, I just don't go on those sessions. If that means I don't skate that day, so be it. Their practice is important, and I've seen how highly-strung people get. Better they have one less skater to worry about.

    It's all fine and dandy for you to say "adult skaters should have their own timeslots", but what about at a rink where figure skating in general is lucky to get sufficient ice time?! And "coffee club skating"? Could you possibly be any more of a condescending twat?

    Look pal, I am not going to the Olympics. I am not going to Worlds. I may not even ever make Adult Nationals. But I AM A FIGURE SKATER. I have goals. I test. I compete. I work my backside off on the ice. And I am not any less of a skater or a person simply because I did not have the opportunity or the money to start when I was five years old.