New Australian Pattern Tests

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by Aussie Willy, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    And I think you interpreted it incorrectly. You have actually been quite personal in the comments you have made and it really is not appropriate.

    If you are a high level coach, I would actually expect a bit more professionalism in your approach to the discussion on this forum.
     
  2. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    What do you think will make a difference to our results?
     
  3. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Better facilities, more ice time, and a bit more funding doesn't hurt...

    The new patterns i agree will help some younger skaters improve more quickly, but i do not believe they will make a considerable differences in our international results.
     
  4. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the ice time, or more accurately, the cost of ice time. It costs double for me to skate at Ice House in Melbourne than it did in Perth (and in Perth the ice time was unlimited, you can just buy a yearly pass.. the only way i can see anyone having that luxury at Ice House is if one works there)
     
  5. Jumpin Bean

    Jumpin Bean New Member

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    Here's to hoping the moves in the field tests improve the skating skills of our skaters. The vast majority of our learners will not reach international competition level for whatever reason but right now most of the skaters going to international competitions do not have the skating skills to get the results they need to sustain their drive to continue to compete.

    This problem starts with (and this will offend) the number of our coaches who would not be able to pass these tests themselves but are more then happy to charge $80-$90 an hour. Ice skating in Australia remains a social/casual activity where skaters training for world championships share ice with beginners toe picking their way around.

    For many years Tibi Straub fought with the "establishment" to have a pathway for mature skaters to have their own tests to enable them to set goals and have the satisfaction of achievement. For years in Ice dance there has been the problem that the "competition" dances for the season have not been the test dances.

    Lets hope the new tests will help parents understand that basic skating is the first "trick" a skater needs to learn, that jumping and spinning isn't skating.

    To improve the international results our skaters need to spend more time exposed to the sort of training conditions skaters overseas train under- this was clearly demonstrated with our dance results at worlds this year.
     
  6. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 New Member

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    I think there are many issues with Skating in Australia, I do believe that making the tests at all levels easier is NOT helping and also that the vast majority of skaters taking tests are not able to execute the required elements with any quality or ease and that coaches who charge $80 - $90 per hour should be making sure their skaters are capable of the test requirements, sadly this starts from the lowest test levels to the hightest! If skaters are not of the required standard they really should not pass the test!

    Looking at Hollins Trophy results you can see that the boys are much stronger than the girls! Most of the senior men had 2A's when they were skating at the Novice level several years ago, which WAS the required jump in the Short program, now it is no longer required so no one tries it therefore, lowering the standard. Not one Junior skater landed a 2A at Hollins Trophy this year in the short program! Most of the Senior Men train for large chunks of the year in USA.

    I know that it is important to keep skaters in the sport BUT just giving tests to Junior and Seniors that cannot execute a basic 2A just does not make sense, if you can pass your tests without the required jumps where is the incentive to work harder! Coaches take the money without having really done their job well, although I know a lot of parents and kids just want to be able to say they are "junior" or "Senior" and coaches are under pressure to keep everyone happy! Conditions are not great in Australia but they are good enough for skaters to get to a high novice standard with a 2A which would be the building blocks for junior and senior! To be truely successful internationally the skaters need to move overseas to have enough quality ice time, I agree with Jumpin Bean this has been well demonstrated with the recent results achieved in dance at worlds. Some Australian high level skaters have very good edges, but they are Australian and will be marked as such in International competitions as long as the component score is subjective.
     
  7. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    totally agree with all of this.

    I like the fact that adult skaters now have to to the pattern tests to skate at a particular level, a bit more structure is always good.
     
  8. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Iceworld Boondall and Acacia Ridge only costs $2.50 for a skater/each session... And for skaters with a senior test, there ice time is free.
     
  9. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    This is the most perfect statement, i agree with everything
     
  10. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Okay someone can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is because the state association owns those rinks, they can make it cheaper for the skaters. Other states are not in the same position.

    As for the Icehouse, it is expensive because the Grollo group are trying to make their money back on their investment as soon as possible. As much as rink management would like to make it cheaper for skaters, they take their instructions from Grollo. Which is to the detriment of the ice sports.
     
  11. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Yes you are correct... Ice skating Queensland owns the rinks.
     
  12. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    hmm. it makes sence from a business point of view, but, it certainly is hard to improve when the time is pricey... i would like to skate 4/5 times a rink for 1.5 hours at a time, but even with a 30 pass (for $300) it would still be 80-100 a week, + lessons. As an adult skater, i find it hard to justify that sort of money. Many parents of would be elite skaters would probably find it pricey also... although skating is universally an expensive sport.

    Cockburn Ice Arean in Perth is about $1500 for a yearly pass, which you can skate on any session for as long as you like (other than hockey obvs). The owner is very invested in figure skating though. He always used to tell us we were spoilt with our ice time.. now i believe him!
     
  13. Jumpin Bean

    Jumpin Bean New Member

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    We can talk all we like about costs, ice availability etc but sit at a training session and objectively watch the skaters. The majority of the Australian skaters would get as much out of skating around in a public session as they do from a training session. Most skaters do not show any recognition that someone is paying for them to use the ice and they need to wake up and use the time responsibly. It's about to get more expensive with the introduction of the carbon tax next month.

    Without results internationally there will be no public money given to skating. To get results they need to train overseas where real skaters use their ice time for training not socialising.

    We also need to get over the idea that they get marked low because they are from Australia- it's because they don't skate as well as skaters from the top nations- it's like a dog chasing its tail- Australian Skaters don't train like top 10 skaters so they don't compete like top 10 skaters. Don't blame the judges- they often get it right. Internationals are now 95% guts and grind and 5% politicking.
     
  14. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    How does one train in a packed public session? During the day when its not school holidays is ideal... but few skaters would have that luxury of not having work/school.
     
  15. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Um, excuse you, but have YOU been on a training session and actually watched the skaters?

    Yeah, I see a bit of gossip going on. I also see the skaters at my rink working their as$es off. The Senior lady has a part-time job and is expected to buy her own boots as she wears them out!

    To say that all Australian skaters just socialise on practice sessions and don't work is not only a gross generalisation, but a disgusting and insulting one. Jerk.
     
  16. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Im just going to ignore your stupid comment
     
  17. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    The reality is that pretty much all skaters in this country have to pay their own way. Very few get any assistance. So I am not sure why you are surprised they have to pay for their own boots. Who do you expect is going to pay for them?
     
  18. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Because:

    Jumpin Bean basically implied that all skaters at a higher level are spoiled brats who expect someone else to pay for everything. My point was that, no, not all of them are.
     
  19. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

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    To an extent Jumping Bean is correct about skaters not using the ice time to the best advantage, but thats probably the result of a number of things.

    Our Figure sessions here are not geared toward the High level athlete and them a being able to gain the best use of the time, our sessions are to long and to crowded (at least at the rink where my kids train) which in itself encourages skaters to stop and have a a chat, because the sessions are to full the skaters can not get the speed they they do when they train in O/S because they are constantly stopping or pulling out of jumps to go around that little kids who are chatting or playing in the same session. We share ice with Pairs, dance and singles in every session.

    When my kids train O/S they have sessions that are 45mins long, limited to 1 discipline and numbers/levels on the ice are also limited. They have off ice classes avalable and run buy a trained sports coach, they have ballet, gym and yoga and it's all quite structured, there is no time to stop and chat in the sessions you have a lesson you practice and you get off and move to the next thing.

    It's true what Aussie Willy say's about most skaters paying their own way in this country. There is some limited funding for the best of the best. Cheaper Ice in Queensland is a huge advantage to it's skaters (Parents) - On the ice for 10 sessions in Sydney and you are looking upward of $130 a week , compared to Queensland at $25. (thats quite a few lessons there!!)

    When the rinks are run privately they are a business that needs to make money, in the long run that is detrimental to producing high end athletes. But it's not only about the money a lot of kids here just don't know how to train effectively.
     
  20. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but that comment had nothing to do with a skater having to buy their own boots. It was to do with wasting time on the ice.
     
  21. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    When i have sent some of my students OS, the session have also been 45 minutes, limited to 1 discipline, only allow 18 skaters on at once, and many have test level requirements. However the rinks in queensland, although they have cheaper ice, it means that there are more crowded sessions because parents let their children play for another session because its only 2.50. Rinks in queensland have sinles, pairs, a little bit of dance, lots of syncro and adult skaters all on at once.

    Another things is that the rinks in queensland dont make much money from figure sessions, however they make a lot of money from public sessions
     
  22. Jumpin Bean

    Jumpin Bean New Member

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    Ok So where did I say this- The problem is it only takes one skater on a session out there for a social time to ruin a session for everyone else. How many times do we see Cheltzie needing to "rewind" her run up for a 3x Lutz because someone meandering around has stopped her going for the jump? How many times have we shuddered because a pair team have been about to go into a lift when someone not aware of others have caused the nearest of misses. Oh yes I have sat and watched many training sessions and see the frustration of the few out there to work being hampered by the social trainer.

    The situation in Queensland where for $2.50 you get the "players" out there....much cheaper then a public session where they are meant to play.

    I can see a few get my drift but until training sessions in Australia become training sessions based on the needs of the training skater instead of based on Rink profitability and coaches income we will continue to flounder on the international stage.

    It would be any interesting experiment to see how it went with 45 minute sessions, divided by levels would work.

    Some of the reactions to my comments have been misinterpretation of the comment and really when you have seen as many skaters come and go as I have over a period of 20 years its easy to see the repetitive pattern and in the past 20 years the standard has not improved. Yes there have been one or two stand out skaters but there has rarely been anyone following to maintain the standard.

    And those who have launched personal attack perhaps need to read the rules
     
  23. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I dont see many people playing around on the 45 minutes sessions as Ice House. My only issue with them as its not long enough really to get a lot done, however, paying entry to two consecituve sessions is an option.

    100% agree with spilitting up the sessions. Perhaps have sessions for aussie skate/prelim-elementary/primary-novice/jnr-snr.

    Of course there are 100s more aussie skates to elementrarys, so that is a problem.
     
  24. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    No rink in Australia makes money from figure sessions. Everything else pretty much subsidises figure skating.

    I agree with Jumpin Bean. I haven't skated in a figure session for a long time now, but when I did you always had your problem skaters who just got in the way of everyone.

    At the Icehouse all the figure sessions are 45 minutes each which from what I have seen you don't see too much mucking around. People get there and practise.
     
  25. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

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    Maybe it's just that mentality I have 45mins I better work hard and get it all done in that time?
    I don't think really the rinks would have a problem with the shorter sessions, my understanding (from the rink manager) is the coaches don't like it because they can lose income. If for example you don't have a jun/senior skater then that Ice time is not available to you and you have to fit your students into other times. I don't think that you can please everyone, but in the end it's the high end skaters who suffer.
    Yes I have seen Cheltize need to pull out of jump after jump and our dance and Pairs couples have been told they are not allowed to lift in some sessions. <sigh>.

    I can see how the $2.50 sessions would attract the Players as well.

    There is just not enough Ice!!:blah:
     
  26. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I did find that myself when I started going to the Icehouse and skated in a shorter session. I didn't muck around because I didn't want to waste my money.
     
  27. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Carbon tax?! Over the global warming fraud business? What a rip-off for Australians. Governments should think twice that their top athletes could move, for cheaper ice, because of taxes on something that is not even scientifically proven.

    I pay that much in the US and I live in a really "cheap" area. And I only skate 5 hrs a week. It's par for the course. It can cost double or triple that in some of the more metropolitan areas, for the same number of hours. I haven't seen cheap ice, anywhere.


    In the U.S. you can pass your senior test by performing all doubles except an axel. It has not made the skaters worse and it is still extremely difficult to pass the senior freestyle test. Not many people have. And the field of talent is very deep. So, the problems in Australia are probably not from lack of 2A on a test.
     
  28. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 New Member

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    To Leafy greens, you do not understand the nature of skating in Australia. In USA tests don't matter because there is so much competition so the incentive to be the best and work hard is so that you can do well in competition! In Australia there is very little competition and it is always the same skaters competing and in some divisions there can be only 1 skater, so if no-one has any of the bigger jumps there is no incentive to get them as JGP's can be given to skaters without 2A's, I believe in a pond as small as Australia the test sytem is important as it gives the skaters something to work towards. I do understand that the test requirements are different in USA to Aus but with the volume of skaters in the USA that is what creates the high standard, we don't have that environment here, so in my opinion it is important to find the way to raise the standards so that AUS skaters compete short programs internationally with the required elements.

    Carbon tax comment, the Government in Aus don't care if the athletes move as they are not involved and offer no funding.

    There are expensive rinks in USA but there are also cheaper ones with plenty of ice availability during the day, if you are prepared to drive you will never be without ice, THAT is not the case in Australia, it is not easy to try to compare the two countries, I have never heard of any US skaters wanting to come to Australia because we have such good facilities, conditions and coaches! Aussie skaters do well with what we have here, but to succeed they need to travel overseas for better conditions and to get enough ice time.
     
  29. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    deleted post
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  30. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    Adult skaters are allowed on the sessions with the actual athletes? You have to be kidding....