Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by Firefly123, Apr 30, 2010.
Thanks -- I'll need to get the new one too.
Someone else got me the previous copy.
Here you can find standards and common errors for the new moves.
Here you can find standards and common errors for the current moves.
Diagrams and patterns and information for the new moves can be found here.
Diagrams and patterns and information for current moves can be found in the test rulebook linked here.
Hope that helps!
Thank you for the links.
I am going to try to get through as many of these things (MITF) as possible by Adult Nats. I think I have until Feb 1st. Will give it a try and see what happens (another foot surgery is scheduled for Fall, so this in going to be hard.)
Queston: Do you think the judges are "harder" on adults who test the standard track MITF than adults who skate the adult track MITF? If I stay on the standard track I can take one less test (since I already passed prepliminary).
Yes, because of the difference in the passing averages between the tests. For instance, the Five Step Mohawk Sequence appears on the Adult Bronze and Pre-Juvenile MIF tests. The Bronze test has a passing average of 2.5, while the Pre-Juv test has a passing average of 2.7. The skater taking the Pre-Juv test has to do the move better in order to pass. Another example - there are several moves currently on both the Intermediate and Adult Gold MIF tests - the forward and backward power circles, the back double threes, the inside slide chasse pattern, and brackets in the field. To pass Gold, you only need a 3.0 passing average, but when you do them again on the Intermediate tests (the one adults take after they pass Gold), you have to get a 3.2 to pass.
Of course, if you take advantage of the new "adult standard" that will go into effect in September, you get a .2 break on the passing average. In that case, there should be no difference between the tests. How that plays out in practice with different judging panels, though, is anybody's guess.
I think that only applies to standard track tests intermediate and above though.
For tests below intermediate the adult standard is the adult track.
/could be wrong...
That is correct - I wasn't clear. The standard for the adult Bronze/Silver/Gold tests is already .2 below the corresponding standard track test, so if you want the "adult advantage" you take the adult tests. Starting at Intermediate, you'll be able to choose which track you're testing on.
Of course, for those of us over 50, there will be the Masters option - .2 lower on the adult MIF tests, and .4 lower on the standard tests Intermediate and above.
That's not strictly true.
E.g., the bronze test contains moves from both the preliminary and prejuvenile standard tests, and the passing average is the same as preliminary.
The silver test contains moves from prejuvenile and juvenile, and the passing average is the same as prejuvenile.
The gold test contains moves from juvenile and intermediate, and the passing average is the same as juvenile.
So for each of those tests, some of the individual moves have the same passing average on both the standard and adult tracks, and some of the individual moves have a passing average that's 0.2 or 0.3* below on the adult track than it would be on the standard track.
*The difference between prejuvenile/silver and juvenile passing standards is 0.3, 2.7 vs. 3.0.
Starting at intermediate, the exact same collection of moves will be on the test, with the exact same name of the test, and you'll be able to choose which standard you want to take the test at.
Before intermediate they're completely separate test tracks with different arrangements of which move is on which test. You can choose which of those tracks to test.
Or if you're a slow learner like me, you could choose to do both, testing most of the moves twice.
Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents about passing averages. I took adult gold MIF and barely passed, then one month later took intermediate MIF and passed with lots of extra points. The judging panel was almost completely the same judges. I don't know how accurate it is that they give you lower scores just for being an adult, because that definitely didn't happen to me. But I also had a "bad" day on my gold test, and had a really "good" day when I took intermediate. The best thing you can do is be able to skate everything really strongly, rather than worry if you are .2 away from passing standard. The judges will look at you and be able to tell what level you are and give you appropriate scores in order to pass or not pass the whole test. They normally don't give too much above the average unless you are really amazing, so I wouldn't worry about it. I'd say unless you are really old, go ahead and give the standard moves a try if you make it past gold. If you can make it to the higher level MIF tests, then you probably don't skate timidly enough to need the .2 lower average anyway. That's just what I think - maybe others think differently.
Finally got back onto the ice. Tried some MITF. Wanted to put my head through boards to end the misery. Ended up skating off and doing jumps before my head exploded. There HAS to be a better way......I'm working on a way to "ethically" participate in USFS, but avoid MITF. I want to go and have fun, too.....But I understand that there are rules.....If I can find a way to follow the rules, but still avoid (most) of the MITF, and not act unethically by skating an event under my level, but still participate (at least in a small way), then it would be a win-win.
Working on this idea.....Thinking.....Thinking.....
You know, I don't really know any kid skaters at least who liked MITF. But there wasn't (and isn't) a choice -- if you want to compete, you get through the moves. My coach made me go through whatever test I was on, to her standards, at least once per session before I was allowed to jump or spin. I hated it, but once I passed my senior moves I never had to do moves again. If you're capable of doing the jumps you say you are, you should be capable of doing the lower level field moves. If you're not, then working on the moves will dramatically improve your jumps -- solid 3-turns (or mohawks), for instance, will make your flips much more secure. And now with IJS, you actually get points for things like rockers and counters and brackets, and you learn those through the moves tests. I know how hard it was to learn loops in order to put them in my footwork -- I can't imagine having to learn all of the turns required for a L3 footwork sequence without having learned at least some of them through the moves tests.
Why not use moves as your warm-up every day?
Actually, I do..... Kind of....
Of course, I don't just skate onto the ice and start jumping. I usually do all 3 turns (in both directions) and a few brackets (the ones that are easy for me) and counters and a rocker or two. Then some spirals and pivots. Maybe some chaines and slides (I just LOVE slides!!!!) Then I usually spin. After spins, I do flying spins and jumps. And, as you mentioned, of course there are basic 3 turns and mohawks to set up the items. So, yes, in a sense I do moves.....They are just my version which usually go in my own direction and which don't need to be in a specific ("picky") pattern on the floor. And yes, you are correct. Under ISJ there is definitely a emphasis on transitions into jumps and moves are definitely needed to get higher levels on footwork.....But under adult rules, (even ISJ), you can just choose a spiral sequence instead so the MITF aren't that critical. From what I've seen of the jumps (even at Junior/Senior level on youtube) two or three good, solid 2-2 combos would definitely even up the playing field there. So, although, I certainly agree with you about the MITF for standard, I really don't think they are that critical in this area for adult. (At least that's what it looks like to me from youtube. Admittedly, I haven't had a chance to actually attend adult nats. I'm hoping to go this year even if I have to travel. Maybe to skate. Maybe just to watch. Will have to see. Could change my opinion then. It's hard to tell anything just by watching youtube.)
You may find it less frustrating if you start right out w/ a couple of lessons w/ a coach who can give you pointers on how to make things easier. There are definitely 'tricks' to some of the elements.
Which moves did you try? If you post some videos I'm sure some people here would be happy to give you some pointers.
Firefly- it sounds to me like you only like to practice things you're good at. (Yeah- me too. Brackets are great fun on the ones I can do. Same with the moves I like- love running them. Hate doing the hard moves)
But you know what- I do what's fun for me, because that's why I skate. I don't compete because I have no interest in continuing to hurt myself and pay out huge PT bills to work on jumps I don't care about. I work on the hard moves sometimes- I'd like to pass the next test, but I know it will be slow progress because I don't set aside the fun stuff and work on the stuff that needs to get done.
For whatever reason, you seem to want to compete. And that means you can't just work on what's fun. You gotta do what the system requires.
If you just want to do what's fun, join your club and participate in exhibitions. I even know of an adult who volunteered to be on her club's board to organize the exhibitions for the kids- and guess what, she gets to skate in them too. In an exhibition you can do whatever you want, no rules.
I like to make up my own MITF. To keep it challenging, I use both directions. I think this is fun. For ex: I do a version of forward power 3s w alternating back xovers so I do a different direction 3turn direction in between.
CW back xover
CCW back xover
CCW back xover
CW back xover
Can also be done w FI3s.
A friend of mine went to a former show skaters who taught her some basic MITF type patterns w expression of arms and head. They are extremely pretty and variations on simple skills. I want to learn these too.
I also enjoy doing basic dance steps around the rink on lobes like chasses, change edge swing rolls, etc. Backward and forward. It mixes it up and keeps things fun while I improve my basic skating skills. Depending on how adv you are, you can add twizzles, loops, brackets, etc. I like to change directions all the way around the rink so i don't do the same side for half of the rink then change. This keeps me changing directions and working on my weak side. i will also complete a pattern w a jump or spin. This gives me the feel of MITF into an element. If you compete, this will definitely benefit your choreography.
W a little ingenuity, MITF can be a lot of fun.
It's IJS, fyi.
Amen, Kay - and if Firefly had read your journal, she would see that both MITF and dance made you a better skater, even though you already had mad skills.
I do! A girl at my rink is really good at MITF. She just loves it. Most of her MITF tests were a whole point over the passing total. That means every element was at least 0.1 to 0.2 over the passing average. She learned and passed the senior MITF in 4 months with way above passing average. She is definitely an exception rather than norm.
Yes, I think that is the whole crux of the problem. If the MITF are so good for skaters and help their skating skills so much, then why force them on the skaters, (which is what they are doing by requireing them on tests)? I would think that skaters, themselves, would be desperate to take them in order to improve their jumps and spins. And, as many members mentioned, if you did't require them, then (most) skaters simply wouldn't do them. But then I guess it could be argued that if most skaters felt that way then maybe that is how the sport should evolve.....in that direction.....rather than enforcing a discipline to prop up an artifically imposed standard.
Interesting observation: Is figure skatng a democracy? I have been advised to try to change the rules by getting others to agree with me. I have complained to more than a few parents, (not coaches, of course since they benefit financially by the present system), and many parents (and skaters) agree with me that MITF are unduly prohibitive. They even said they wouldn't mind signing a petition to see them made elective and remove them as a requirement for freestyle testing. How many signatures would I need? That is the problem. Even if I spend time, effort, and $ on a petition, (none of which I have), and got over 10,000 signatures and brought the whole thing to the USFS they would simply laugh and vote no. It is an oligarchy not a democracy. I guess that is where I get fustrated. And btw, I was actually suprised by how many skaters (and parents) hate the MITF and said they would be willing to sign my petition. I probaby could get a few thousand signatures in support of making it elective. Seriously. I could. But, as I wrote, what's the point.......
And I really do disagree about skaters getting hurt. Obviously, the more a skater jumps the more stress is put upon their body. That is true. But there are so many other factors to consider. The strength and physical make up of the skater. How much practice time he/she is putting in to begin with. The skater's weight and jump technique. I'm sorry, but there are just too many factors involved to arbitrarily say that taking out MITF is going to injure skaters. (Unless, of course, you want to support MITF. I have written term papers too. It's the old eating white bread causes violent crime because 97% of all inmates inprisoned for violent crimes have eaten it argument.)
But instead of insulting and arguing with me, maybe you guys should just consider this for a second. What is wrong with a choice? Especially at the adult level? Make MITF elective. If I get hurt, then, hey that's MY problem. I am an adult. I made my choice. There are enough adults that actually like the MITF and feel that it helps their overall skating that they will still take it. Why not make it elective at least the adult level? We are adults, after all. Choice is good.
This is incorrect. Good skating skills can make up for lack of jumping skills at the adult level, and good skating skills coupled with good jumping skills will give the edge to that skater over someone who doesn't have as good of skating skills.
There's nothing wrong with choice. You have a choice. You can refuse to do moves and therefore not compete, or you can suck it up, do the moves and compete. Those are your options, and they aren't going to change. The only way I see the moves requirement disappearing is by having a figures requirement come back, and trust me - you would like figures even less than moves.
Look at it this way: At least you don't have to do FIGURES!!!!
I'm sorry. I do not feel that this is a legitimate choice.
And there are other options.....
Good gosh!! No Way! Yikes!!
Ok. Let's take this in another direction. I do understand that the MITF thing is an "old horse" that's been beaten a million times....
But I am honestly confused about the jumps especially at the Masters Junior/Senior level which is the highest level under adult so far (unless they add an "elite" for ex-pros which they haven't done so far.)
I will admit that I am only judging by what is posted on youtube and have never attending adult nats in person so I can definitely be very wrong here.......But from what I saw on youtube, (and I am not going to name any names or reference any videos), the jumps were ..... shakey.....at best. Now, yes, there were some very nice spins, (but very few flying spins strangely. ) But, all in all, some nice spins. And very nice footwork, spirals and transitions. But, I'm sorry, for the most part, I didn't see the "good jumping skills" you are referring to. I just didn't see it. One lady did have a nice 2axel. She did have some very good jumping skills as well as spinning and overall skating ability. But she was definitely the exception, not the rule. If you want to double check me, put in "masters, senior, ice skating" in a search on youtube. I am not being mean and, as I said, I am only refering to the jumping skills. These are obviously very good skaters. But I just don't see the 2-2 combos and there are a lot of fall outs and touch downs and pops to singles at least going by what is posted to youtube. (And I'll admit that I only have these videos to judge this on, so I can be very wrong here.) But that is what it looks like to me.....
Also, there is a male adult skater who posts here who has provided videos and he is capable of some nice 2-2 combos. But, again, I do believe he is an exception not the rule...
My argument was that someone capable of "tricks" could possibly pull ahead on the strength of those tricks, even if other skaters had good "skating" ability due to the fact that most of the skaters (not all, but most) are so......weak....on the tricks that they are relying on skating ability (spirals, transitions, presentation) very heavily. It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone who was strong in the "trick" department was put in the mix with these skaters....... I wouldn't be so sure skating skills would necessarily carry the day (especially under IJS). That was my point. It is a legitimate observation. It would be interesting to try the experiment and see what happens.....
I'd suggest you get a subscription to icenetwork.com, so you can watch the whole, actual competition. I don't know what age category you would be---
But I can tell you that a lady from my rink competed this year in Masters Junior/Senior I (the youngest group). She is a BEAUTIFUL skater, the kind you just can't take your eyes off when she skates. She also has jumps through double lutz, in combination, and they are very, very strong & good technique. She wasn't even in the top half of her group. Not because she didn't skate well, but because the whole group was just that good.
That's the first thing. Secondly, you have to factor in the nerves of competition--unless someone is a 'nerves of steel' skater, generally you figure that the performance level drops about 25% in competition. You've posted that you are a nervous competitor, so figure that your performance also would suffer in competition.
Thirdly, I'd HIGHLY recommend that you work with a choreographer who is an expert in IJS. Otherwise you stand a good chance of missing a lot of points just because of the choreography not taking advantage of everything it could.
So I'm sorry, but yes, you are being pretty arrogant assuming that you'd sweep in and win it all, having never even competed as a figure skater yet. I've seen your jump/spin videos--they are okay, but there are some flaws that you'd get deductions/-GOE for under IJS. With this scoring system, it's no longer enough to simply "do" the jumps/tricks--you have to do them well in order to get full credit.
So--Suck it up, get the moves tests under your belt, and then do some competing and see how it goes. You may win some, you may lose some--but you'll never know until you do it, and meanwhile you're just setting yourself up by sitting & comparing a few videos on youtube to what you *think* you'd be able to do in competition.
I really don't understand, other than your own stubbornness, why you think MITF are somehow separate from skating skills. You have to be able to use an edge and move to do jumps and spins. You have to be able to use an edge and move to do MITF.
You also seem to be assuming that MITF are the only tests that are "forced" upon skaters. Last time I checked, there were USFS tests that also required skaters to do certain jumps and spins. Why is the test only "forced" when it's an MITF test?
Well....I'm not necessarily referring to myself. It is a hypothetical argument based upon an observation I made watching videos posted on youtube of skaters in the junior/senior catagory. Admittedly, not all of the skaters were on these videos so this argument may very well be flawed. Until I attend adult nats and watch the event in person I really cannot say for sure. Fair enough.
That is a good point. I guess it is because MITF doesn't have it's own catagory and FS does. I wouldn't object to separating the two and having separate tests for each division. I just object to forcing FS to take MITF in order to skate FS.......Why not just make a division for MITF if everyone loves it so much and drop it as a prerequsite for FS.......But then this is the same old dead stinky horse. Must stop beating the horse..... (Oh! Really cool emote!!)
post removed. never mind.
Well.....If you were going to compete in Senior MITF event I don't think you should have to pass the Senior FS. (That is really the equilivant.) But, of course, there is no Senior MITF event......That is kind of the point.
And while I can understand (but not necessarily agree with) the idea that MITF is setting some sort of high standard for skaters who want to compete internationally (world and Olympic level) this is really an argument for the standard tract skaters, not the adults. Why not drop the MITF requirement for adults as it is unduly prohibitive since most adults are not headed into international competitions or have any hope of representing the US at the Olympics. Also, I would argue that MITF is not the only way to ensure a high standard. Frankly, it depends upon WHAT you are basing the standard upon. Should it be quads and difficult tricks (as the Plushinko/Stojko camp would argue)? Or should it be art and transitions? It really despends upon what you want that standard to be....and that is, to a large degree, a matter of opinion. The opinion of the people in power is the standard they want to uphold. Exactly what the standard you want to uphold is reflects your own attitude/opinion. Standards can and do change. (Oh! I truely love this emote!!)
I agree with backspin...I don't think these youtube videos you refer to provide an accurate glimpse of Adult Master's Jr/Sr...I have seen some videos and then watched the skaters in person and I can say that they are all so much more impressive in person. Their jumps are much better than "shakey at best"
Also, it makes a huge difference if you are watching a competitive program or watching practice. Pretty much all of the Champ Master's Jr/Sr women are capable of 2/2 combos and strong smooth double jumps in practice even if they do not perform up to par in the competition.(and all of the men are...this year there were skaters placing 5-6 in the mens that did multiple 2/2 combos) Yet these skills don't always transfer to a competitive program. It is way different skating into a double lutz 2 minutes into a program than just skating into a jump in practice.
I know I can do a double sal / double loop in my sleep, but I managed to screw it up in competition twice this year...these things happen, but the jumping skills of these skaters are better than you describe.
A more accurate analogy would be school figures. Throughout the 1990s, there were separate events for school figures and freestyle at novice through senior level. For a while there were separate events at lower levels and adult levels as well. It was not necessary to pass the corresponding freestyle tests in order to compete in figures, or vice versa.
During the period of 1880s-1980s, singles skating consisted of both figures and freestyle. Pairs was only freestyle, with a compulsory short program more than a decade before the singles had one. Ice dance had compulsory dances. Many pair and dance skaters did learn school figures when they were learning to skate, because everyone is a single skater before committing to a specific discipline, but unlike singles competitors they weren't required to test figures to compete in the partner disciplines.
MITF tests are not specific to any one discipline of figure skating and are not a discipline in themselves. They're just basic skating. They're designed to establish the basics for all disciplines.
School figures (although it's not an official competition any more) is a subset of basic skating skills performed in very precise and exacting patterns.
Singles skating (divided by sex) is basic skating plus jumps and spins.
Pair skating is a team of one male and one female doing basic skating plus pair tricks and side-by-side singles tricks.
Ice dancing is a team of one male and one female doing basic skating plus specific kinds of musical interpretation/dancing in almost constant physical contact.
Synchronized skating is teams of many skaters doing basic skating in formations and in almost constant physical contact.
Artistic or interpretive skating (more of a fun side discipline than a championship event) is basic skating plus musical interpretation and theatrical qualities. Theatre on Ice is the same in concept for large groups. These are not really part of the sport as sport, but something fun for skaters to do on the side or instead.
Notice that there is not any discipline that is only about the special skills for that discipline without also involving basic skating.
All of these are now available to adults as well as kids.
The events are divided by skill level based on the quality of basic skating, with limits or minimum expectations for the specialized moves of that discipline where applicable.
Beginning skaters, whether adults or kids, start out by learning the beginning techniques of basic skating, and then as they move up in skill level they may specialize in one or more specific disciplines and develop the special skills related to that discipline, but they still need to keep improving their basic skating.
There are many thousands of figure skaters who test and compete. For female singles skaters at least, there are thousands of skaters in the US at some specific age and skill levels. To make the competitions meaningful, the events are divided according to minimum skill level of basic skating, as measured by MITF tests. Age and jump limits break things down further but are secondary to the basic skating.
The primary standard in all disciplines has always been the basic skating. That is not going to change.
How much difficult tricks or highlight transitions or above-the-blade artistry should count in comparison to each other or even in comparison to basic skating may fluctuate. But there is never going to be a discipline of figure skating where basic skating is not the most important criterion.
It's not ice jumping. It's not ice ballet. It's not ice art. It's ice skating.
I will defer to your judgement, then, since I have never seen these skaters in person. (I hope to attend this year and will have a better understanding of this seeing things first hand.) Meanwhile I will try to get the scoresheets off of the USFS site. Maybe the best routines were not posted. (This is also very possible.)
Though from what you have described and from what I have seen from the video I am interested in how a skaters can manage the excellent quality edgework needed to pass junior/senior MITF tests and still have difficulty in preforming 2-2 combos (under pressure) and, it seems, any triples at all. Also they seem to avoid flying spins (generally)....It has been ground into me multiple times that the MITF are the basis of all these "ticks" and that it is absolutely necessary to be proficient in them in able to preform the ticks.....But here we have people who are obviously proficient in the moves yet seem to have problems with the tricks (at least when under pressure). These are your very highest level adult skaters with excellent skating (edgework) skills. What gives? I mean with that kind of edge quality (the same as demonstrated by the standard level skaters at this level) they should find this stuff a piece of cake, right?
As I have pointed out several times, if edge quality were all that crucial in determining freeskating ability, then Tanith Belbin and Meryl Davis should both be capable of quads (easily)...But they obvioulsy aren't......So something else is at work here. And it is that "something else" (athletic ability? physical strength? I'm not even sure what it is, to be completely honest with you, but it is... something). And whatever this mysterous "tallent" is, that is being insulted and dismissed here. This is what bothers me.